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RE: MWiF Map Review - America

 
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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/25/2006 7:59:53 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

Shreveport is maybe not that important to add on the map here in the south if we want to keep the map from being clogged with cities. But if that is so then I don't understand why we are in the process of adding so many new cities in the NE part of USA. Why is it ok in NE USA to add cities like Hartford, Flint, Albany, Akron, Dayton etc. while there are so few cities in the south compared to the north? Is it because you expect some military actions in the NE of USA so USA needs cities to add reinforcements?

For me the most important thing about making a map is to have CONSISTANT design rules everywhere on the map. If you go for one detail level at one part of the map then it would be strange if other parts of the map have a much lesser detail level. I think mainly about adding cities, ports and railroads. That is one reason I don't think the megalopolis idea of creating a continuous line of cities from Washington to Boston is a good idea. Was it really that crowded in 1940 from Washington to Boston? I noticed that many US cities have become a lot bigger during the last 50-60 years. One example is Las Vegas that had 8.400 inhabitants in 1940 and had 545.000 inhabitants in 2005.

So maybe it's a good idea to be more restrictive about adding new cities in NE USA. Especially new cities not needed for supply reasons, like adding a city adjacent to an already bigger city (like adding Providence adjacent to Boston).

Well, let me just say that we have added not cities for the moment. All those violet wrote cities are not yet added, they just are the proposals I've heard of for the moment. I did put them all on the map for people to see them, but I do not expect to place even helf of them on the map.
Also, I'm more enclined to add cities to the NE because I think there are a lot more inhabitants in those areas, not that I expect any combat here (except if playing AiF). If I'm mistaken please tell me.


High density and/or a line of cities is not commonplace in WIF FE but it does occur in several locations. Here are 2 examples,

1 - in Germany: Kiel, Hamburg, Bremen, Magdeburg, Hannover, Essen, Dusseldorf, Cologne, Aachen, Sarbrucken, Frankfort, Karlsruhe, Stuttgart.

2 - in England: Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, Leeds, Hull, Sheffield, Manchester, Liverpool, Birmingham, Coventry, Cardiff, Bristol, Southampton, Portsmouth.

I do have a concern about basing decisions solely on the population counts for the cities. Each hex is about 60 miles across (90-100 Km) and a city occupies very little of that area. I would like to see a lot of other smaller cities in the same hex and/or extensive industry and/or suburbs to justify the addition of a city. A single city in the midst of a mostly unpopulated area would require strong justification.

Conversely, there might be (hypothetically) a dozen or so small cities in a hex and then we would choose one of them for the label as the city in the hex, even if officially the 'city' proper has a population under 100K. I think that Newark NJ might be in this category. The NE part of NJ has a lot of small cities and extensive suburbs some heavy industry. That aggregate makes calling it a city ok by me. Even so, the rest of northern NJ is almost all lightly populated hilly woods with some national parks thrown in.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/25/2006 8:06:56 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wfzimmerman
There should be a north-south railroad from Cincinnatti (through Dayton) (through Toledo) to Detroit.

If we look at this in terms of game play, it seems important to me to capture the fact that the US rail & road transportation was quite elaborate even by 1940.

Also if we look at this in terms of game play, if you imagine Axis troops reaching the East Coast, I am wondering if we are making the east coast a bit too difficult to conquer, with all those hero cities. if the game is going that well for the Axis, morale in US east coast cities would be pretty dismal...

No one has mentioned this, but it seems to me that the main beneficiary of all these improvements on the US map is going to be the AI, when playing against Axis players who have tweaked the CSV files to get themselves into a commanding position!


Actually, such considerations have never even entered my head as we have been reviewing the maps. I consider them irrelevant and only rarely think in terms of two sides (or 8 major powers) fighting over the terrain. As far as game play intrudes as a criterion, the rules on supply, combat, and reinforcement dictate decisions.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/25/2006 8:42:16 PM   
Anendrue


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Patrice this may or may not help. In 1940 National geographic published a National defense Map of the USA, Canada, and Mexico detailing cities, bases, ports etc... The census records of the larger cities was also included on this map. Also interesting to note, there is a small insert that shows information on the civil defense of the US. Considering the date of the Map - December 1940, is an interesting historical map for WiF. The insert map shows the Grouping of Infantry Divisions into Corps and of Corps into Field Armies state by state. National Guard areas are also shown. Map folds out to : 40" by 27". If you can get a copy through an interlibrary loan this should preempt an awful lot of historical speculation. This is a small sample I found on the web.






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< Message edited by abj9562 -- 9/25/2006 8:45:36 PM >


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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/25/2006 9:14:34 PM   
JagdFlanker


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top 100 US cities by population 1940

http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab17.txt

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/25/2006 9:45:36 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

top 100 US cities by population 1940

http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab17.txt

Wow, I didn't realize the Newark NJ was so large. Also part of that hex are Jersey City, Patterson, and Elizabeth.

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Post #: 125
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/25/2006 10:28:01 PM   
JagdFlanker


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1941 population census – Canada

Halifax, Nova Scotia – 123k

St. John, New Brunswick – 70k (optional - MAJOR ship building yard and oil refineries)

Montreal, Quebec – 1358k
Quebec City, Quebec – 203k

Toronto, Ontario – 952k
Hamilton, Ontario – 207k
Ottawa, Ontario – 203k
Windsor, Ontario – 174k
London, Ontario – 127k
Kitchener, Ontario – 99k
Thunder Bay, Ontario – 85k
Sudbury, Ontario - 81k (resource hex)

Winnipeg, Manitoba – 295k

Regina, Saskatchewan – 109k

Edmonton, Alberta – 149k
Calgary, Alberta – 147k

Vancouver, British Columbia – 450k
Victoria, British Columbia – 151k


EDIT:

Newfoundland did not join Canada until 1949 (was a Brit colony), but Metro St. John's looks to have had 100k-ish population in the '40's

< Message edited by Flanker Leader -- 9/25/2006 10:50:33 PM >

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Post #: 126
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/25/2006 10:38:08 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flanker Leader

top 100 US cities by population 1940

http://www.census.gov/population/documentation/twps0027/tab17.txt

Is there the rest of the list somewhere ? For cities after the 100 first ones.

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Post #: 127
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/25/2006 10:47:54 PM   
JagdFlanker


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that was just a page i scored looking for canadian population - you can try going to the homepage and looking around, but it doesn't look too friendly

at least you know the year of the census now - that was the most difficult part of finding the historical canadian metro populations


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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/26/2006 3:58:33 AM   
doctormm


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I'm not sure of the current status of the map, but if Albany is still in, then it's on the wrong side of the Hudson.

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/26/2006 9:58:00 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: doctormm
I'm not sure of the current status of the map, but if Albany is still in, then it's on the wrong side of the Hudson.

Good catch, thanks for that.
Do you think that Albany is at the wrong place, or that the Hudson is at the wrong place ?
I think that the Hudson is at the wrong place, it seems more north-south flowing. Is it connected to Lake Champlain to the north ?

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Post #: 130
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/26/2006 10:30:20 AM   
Froonp


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The best is not to place Albany on the map, because redrawing the Hudson so that it runs east of Albany makes the global hudson seems to come from the northeast. Looks awkward...

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/27/2006 5:27:07 PM   
Froonp


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Here is what Canada could look.
First is the area north of the Great Lakes.
It includes the modified railways (black lines) proposed by Flanker Leader (post #19). I checked them with a couple of Canada maps, one from the early 20s, one of the late 20s, and also the WiF FE Canada map. I also checked with current Canada map to avoid having railways where there never were.
Flanker Leader was mostly right with the modified railways he proposed.

I also proposed to add the the city of Sudbury (81k in 1941), because on the WiF map, a Canadian unit would be in supply from Toronto up to the connection between Lake Superior and Lake Huron.
With the MWiF map as it is, this supply situation is far from being ok, so I propose to add Sudbury to make it the same as WiF FE.




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< Message edited by Froonp -- 9/27/2006 5:34:25 PM >

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/27/2006 5:35:57 PM   
Froonp


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Here is the Newfoundland, Newbrunswick, and Lower Québec areas.
Here there is nothing modified, only the coastlines added.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/27/2006 5:46:12 PM   
Froonp


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Here is the Manitoba / Saskatchewan / eastern Alberta areas.
I made some modifications here :

- Moved the Churchill Railway 2-3 hexes south.
- Moved Saskatoon 1 hex SW, and the railway that runs through it.
- Moved the railway south of Regina going into the USA 1-2 hexes W. Moved the Oil resource too.

- Proposal of addition of Regina (109k in 1941) for supply between Calgary and Winnipeg, to make the supply cover of the area as in WiF FE maps.





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< Message edited by Froonp -- 9/27/2006 5:53:47 PM >

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/27/2006 5:51:35 PM   
Froonp


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Here is British Columbia and a bit of Alberta.
If you think that these area are remote area, think again. Reviewing Canada showed me more remote places than British Columbia .




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/27/2006 5:55:44 PM   
Froonp


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Here is the southern Hudson Bay.
I did not finished the Northwest Territories and the northern Hudson Bay yet.




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/27/2006 6:05:48 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

Newfoundland did not join Canada until 1949 (was a Brit colony), but Metro St. John's looks to have had 100k-ish population in the '40's

So the WiF FE maps had it true, because on these Newfoundland is a Territory controlled by the CW.
In MWiF on the other hand, Newfoundland is part of Canada.

If Steve agrees, I'll create Newfoundland Territory, and make its hexes part of this Territory (Edit : I can add it as a CGA Steve, are you ok ?).

< Message edited by Froonp -- 9/27/2006 6:18:46 PM >

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Post #: 137
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/27/2006 6:11:15 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

1. Add city of Thunder Bay in Canada?

Thunder Bay is a city on the NW bank of Lake Superior. It's located in the hex 3xNE+E of Duluth. It's the biggest city in the region on the Canadian side of the border and is maybe needed for supply reasons. The city is not very big (122.000 inhabitants now), but the only city in this area of Canada having a chance to be on the MWIF map.

Thunder Bay (I love the name ) had a 85k population in 1941, so it could be added if there was a need for it.
I think there is no need for it, it is even the contrary.
This area of the WiF FE map is a big supply hole for Canadian units, and adding Thunder bay would make it different.

Here is how southern Canada looks in WiF FE (Edit : remember these are Pacific scaled hexes, so Supply extends 2 hexes from cities -- On the MwiF map, supply extends 4 hexes from cities) :




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< Message edited by Froonp -- 9/27/2006 6:13:07 PM >

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/27/2006 8:18:29 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Newfoundland did not join Canada until 1949 (was a Brit colony), but Metro St. John's looks to have had 100k-ish population in the '40's

So the WiF FE maps had it true, because on these Newfoundland is a Territory controlled by the CW.
In MWiF on the other hand, Newfoundland is part of Canada.

If Steve agrees, I'll create Newfoundland Territory, and make its hexes part of this Territory (Edit : I can add it as a CGA Steve, are you ok ?).

Yes.

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Post #: 139
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 1:00:50 AM   
Froonp


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Here is upper Québec.
Feels cold !!!!




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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 1:23:47 AM   
wfzimmerman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is upper Québec.
Feels cold !!!!





are any of these boondocky hexes invadable?

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 1:25:36 AM   
sajbalk


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Perhaps it is not too big of a deal, but the current mini-map has a Canadian city/port that will never be iced in. I think it is in the Maritime provinces. The MWiF map does not. A Canadian unit coming on the map in the winter will likely not be able to get anywhere useful until next turn.

The map is certainly correct, but I wanted to call attention to the effect.



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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 3:12:04 AM   
JagdFlanker


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here is the Newfoundland, Newbrunswick, and Lower Québec areas.
Here there is nothing modified, only the coastlines added.





i know you havn't actually modified anything here, but just letting you know cape breton nova scotia (where sydney is) is noticably out of wack - it's twisted right at almost a 90 degree angle, and (for all intents and purposes)there's not supposed to be a huge split in the middle. also the bay of fundy (between st john and yarmouth) is much wider than it's supposed to be making new brunswick look short and stocky. it doesn't look THAT bad so no biggie if you don't change it (i'm moving to new brunswick in 3 days which is why i mention it )






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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 9:16:58 AM   
Manic Inertia

 

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What are the white hexes, tundra? What rules are used for them?

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RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 9:53:49 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sajbalk

Perhaps it is not too big of a deal, but the current mini-map has a Canadian city/port that will never be iced in. I think it is in the Maritime provinces. The MWiF map does not. A Canadian unit coming on the map in the winter will likely not be able to get anywhere useful until next turn.

The map is certainly correct, but I wanted to call attention to the effect.

You're right indeed.
The (c) 2000 America minimap has Halifax as a city and Major Port.
The (c) 1998 AiF America map has it as a Major Port.
The (c) 1996 America minimap had not Halifax, but only Sidney as a minor port at this place.

As the (c) 2000 America minimap is the latest ADG production for WiF FE, I take it that ADG intention is to make Halifax a city plus a major port.
Moreover, the Canada 1941 census that someone posted on these forums has it that Halifax has 123k inhabitants in 1941.

So I will make Halifax a city. Comments ?

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Post #: 145
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 9:56:42 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

are any of these boondocky hexes invadable?

If there are all sea hexside, they will be.
There is no rule for boondocky hexes in WiF FE.

Adding one could be a good idea, but then all MWiF all sea hexsides coastal hexes would have to be reviewed to check if they are invadable or if they are too boondocky hexes to be invaded. I already know Steve's answer.

(in reply to wfzimmerman)
Post #: 146
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 10:00:31 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia
What are the white hexes, tundra? What rules are used for them?

Movement cost are as mountain, combat effect are as clear terrain.
I take it that this is a step between forest and jungle, with no tree cover. Edit : Only thick brushes.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 9/28/2006 10:06:53 AM >

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Post #: 147
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 10:04:49 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

i know you havn't actually modified anything here, but just letting you know cape breton nova scotia (where sydney is) is noticably out of wack - it's twisted right at almost a 90 degree angle, and (for all intents and purposes)there's not supposed to be a huge split in the middle. also the bay of fundy (between st john and yarmouth) is much wider than it's supposed to be making new brunswick look short and stocky. it doesn't look THAT bad so no biggie if you don't change it (i'm moving to new brunswick in 3 days which is why i mention it )

I see I had it wrong with Cape Breton island, I'll redraw it.
For the Bay of Fundy, I'll try at improving it. I understand that I should make it slimmer, is it that ? Also Nova Scotia should be a little slimmer south of Halifax, shouldn't it ?

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Post #: 148
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 12:14:40 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

are any of these boondocky hexes invadable?

If there are all sea hexside, they will be.
There is no rule for boondocky hexes in WiF FE.

Adding one could be a good idea, but then all MWiF all sea hexsides coastal hexes would have to be reviewed to check if they are invadable or if they are too boondocky hexes to be invaded. I already know Steve's answer.


All right, I have to step in here - after all I majored in English.

Boondocks is a quasi-slang term referring to places far removed from civilization. "Out in the boondocks" or "out in the sticks" means locations where few people live, indeed, where few people would want to live. Boondocky was thrust upon an unsuspecting world by M. Zimmerman. I, for one, would like to see it slide back into non-existence.

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Post #: 149
RE: MWiF Map Review - America - 9/28/2006 12:18:45 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Manic Inertia
What are the white hexes, tundra? What rules are used for them?

Movement cost are as mountain, combat effect are as clear terrain.
I take it that this is a step between forest and jungle, with no tree cover. Edit : Only thick brushes.

No. Tundra is a very specific type of land surface. It is frozen underneath and thaws out to a kind of muddy slush during the summer, though never enough to completely melt. It is very common in Siberia, Alaska, and Northern Canada. The trend towards global warming these days is partly substantiated by the loss of tundra acreage in Alaska. There are specialized plant and animal life that live in tundra.

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