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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> WolfPacks

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WolfPacks - 9/18/2006 12:57:50 AM

Skeleton

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I thought I read (either in the manual or here) that sub patrols are best kept to one sub per patrol. Can someone please explain to me why and what the adverse effects are of having sub patrols with several subs?

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/18/2006 1:03:27 AM

Terminus

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Supposedly it's got something to do with difficulty of coordination. On top, a multi-sub group won't get off more than one shot anyway (i.e. only one boat will fire). All the boats will count towards detection, though.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/18/2006 1:08:53 AM

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As always, thank you for the info Terminus.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/18/2006 1:15:28 AM

Drex

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But reversely, can't the multi-sub group be detected easier?

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/18/2006 2:23:11 AM

Terminus

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Yep. When I said "count towards detection", I meant in both directions...

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/18/2006 4:20:41 AM

Procrustes

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Hi,

I've been curious about this, too. What about putting several single-sub TF's in the same spot - can you get off more than one shot if you do that?

Thanks,

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/18/2006 7:19:31 AM

niceguy2005

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I don't think so. I think only one sub will attack, but you chances of an attack are better.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/18/2006 9:08:09 AM

Terminus

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Always only one attacking sub. It's dictated by the sub attack routine, and if you think about that, then you can see it easily.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 2:25:38 AM

Andvari

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I thought the manual suggested that you deploy more than one sub in a TF?!? Was this superceded in one of the patches?

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 2:37:49 AM

Andvari

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Sorry, I could have sworn I saw it the other way around:

6.1.9.10 Sub Patrol

The Sub Patrol TF has a maximum of 25 ships (although they always work best when operating

alone). A TF with a Sub Patrol Mission will attempt to attack enemy ships with torpedoes.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 2:46:34 AM

New York Jets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andvari

[snip] ...although they always work best when operating alone.... [snip]

The Germans used wolfpacks to pretty good success (IIRC) and they were doing that against the much better organized convoy sytem the Western Allies managed to employ.

You would think that given the less than adequate Japanese system that an organized wolfpack system would be very effective in the Japanese shipping lanes.

< Message edited by Chris Trog -- 9/19/2006 2:48:31 AM >

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 3:07:02 AM

dtravel

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IIRC the US did employ a form of wolfpack tactics late in the war. But from what I understand the main reason they were not as prevalent in the Pacific is the much greater distances involved.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 3:40:16 AM

Terminus

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It was mostly three to four boats cooperating, rather than the ten or up the German wolfpack might consist of.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 5:43:08 AM

Procrustes

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Hi,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andvari

I thought the manual suggested that you deploy more than one sub in a TF?!? Was this superceded in one of the patches?

I know the manual give you a "tip" that you can put a bunch of subs in a new TF to get them out of port, then it says to split the single subs off into their own TF's with their own destinations. (Goes on to suggest that after you give each a destination you then set it to AI control.)

Perhaps that is what you were recalling?

Best,

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 3:48:44 PM

Hoplosternum

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Despite the manual I believe that Terminus is correct. There was a change to the sub routines in one of the patches (1.6 or 1.4 maybe?).

I recall reading the change (that I have now forgotten

) and asking whether that meant that subs would be effective in groups as in UV and WitP previously they had always been best as singletons.

The answer from the designers was that yes a group of subs would now have a better chance of success than a single sub. They would also have a better chance of success than the same number of single TF subbs in one hex IIRC.

But note what Terminus and NiceGuy are saying too. You have a greater chance of being detected. I am not sure if being detected prevents you from attacking - although I think it does - in which case this probably more than cancels out your higher chance of attack. Personally I always use single Sub TFs unless transferring subs from base to base. Certainly proper Wolfpack tactics are not implemented in the game, don't expect to be able to lure away escorts to uncover the good stuff

I don't think you will get markedly better results this way but it might be worth experimenting.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 3:51:40 PM

Terminus

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I remember some consternation when Mike Wood posted on the board (I think it was him), that wolfpack tactics could be used, contrary to what the manual says.

As for detection automatically precluding the sub attacking, that is not necessarily so. Depends on the aggressiveness of the skipper, whether sub doctrine is on or off, what year you're in, etc...

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 10:37:36 PM

Halsey

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It was Mr Frag who did the 180 on this.

Mulitple subs in a TF will only attack and or defend with ONE sub.
More subs in a TF does not increase its chance at being detected.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/19/2006 11:07:44 PM

Terminus

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So it only increasing the chance of the submarines detecting targets? Hmmm...

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/20/2006 2:49:37 AM

Andvari

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My erroneous assumption was the result of what I read in the WitP Manual Skripta:

- More one-sub TFs in a single hex increase sighting chances, but only 1 Sub can attack enemy TF.
- Subs work best (employing Wolfpack tactics) with multiple Subs in a single TF.

Now I don't know who wrote the above Manual, but this is what followed:

- Chance of a Sub attacking a TF varies with:
1. Sub�s max speed,
2. TF�s cruise speed,
3. Sub crew experience,
4. Prior detection of a Sub.
- Sub attack sequence:
1. Chance for early detection of a Sub by TF escort,
2. Sub attack (only if not detected early),
3. Sub dives to escape,
4. Escort attack.
- Effectiveness of TF escort is determined by:
1. Escorts' max speed,
2. Crew experience,
3. ASW weapons,
4. Total number of escorts in TF.

This seems pretty reasonable, but I don't know if it is altogether true either. I'm going back through the manual and all the WhatsNew patch updates.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/20/2006 3:51:15 AM

spence

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quote:

It was mostly three to four boats cooperating, rather than the ten or up the German wolfpack might consist of.

German wolfpacks varied in size depending on the availability of UBoats. The big packs really didn't get going until late 42 when the overall number of operational UBoats grew to 200 or so. The early packs during "The Happy Time" really weren't more than 3 or 4.

Another reason that American subs didn't form into packs as large as German ones is that Japanese convoys were no where near the size of the Atlantic convoys (40-60 merchies): usually no more than around 4-8 merchies. 3-4 subs attacking such a convoy could and often did wipe it out in short order.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/20/2006 4:24:03 PM

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US command doctrine also stressed radio silence in order to help mask their sub's location. A couple early/midwar attempts at forming small wolfpacks (2-4 subs) were made but were not very successful due to lack of practice and ability to communicate properly via radio with each other or through a central command. But ultimately given Japan's neglect of convoy/ASW, it wasn't needed anyway as the Silent service found out in 43 once we[they....da US of A] got our own sub doctrine straightened out and started seriously hitting the merchants and esp. the tankers.

Doneitz and his boys had prepared for wolfpacking early on and the coordination/command control it would take but Blair (ye ol' controversial sub author...R.I.P.) stated that Doneitz was overreliant on radio and underestmated the value of HF/DF (huff/Duff) radio detection equipment of the Allied forces which aided the Allies in tracking down subs. (IIRC, he was mostly unaware of HF/DF as well)

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/20/2006 5:00:16 PM

Terminus

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Blair's dead? Didn't know that...

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/20/2006 5:49:33 PM

Nikademus

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Yes, a number of years back in fact. The ultimate irony of his books is that they add yet another exclamation point to the simplified argument that always revolves around here....aka the "I have the statistics....i'm right [your wrong]" angle

Blair's book is more chaulk full of statistics than any other source i own....yet his books are among the most controversial published due to the conclusions he made.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/20/2006 8:08:51 PM

AnGeliCo

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As stated above, the tactical & operational requirements and doctrines
in the Atlantic operations were very different from those applying in the Pacific.

For information about the German & Allied problems in the Atlantic
I advise the following reading.

These two books from prior to the revelation of Ultra Intelligence, give you most
of the facts about the Battle of the Atlantic as seen "on the shop floor":

The Defeat of the Enemy Attack on Shipping (RN view)
http://uboat.net/books/item/493
U-Boat War in the Atlantic 1939-1945 (KM view)
http://uboat.net/books/item/290

and this one fills in the gaps about Ultra as it was provided at the time:
The Battle of the Atlantic and Signals Intelligence
http://uboat.net/books/item/860

One day, I'll know enough about the BotA but by then I'll have no money :(

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/20/2006 9:01:00 PM

Terminus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yes, a number of years back in fact. The ultimate irony of his books is that they add yet another exclamation point to the simplified argument that always revolves around here....aka the "I have the statistics....i'm right [your wrong]" angle

Blair's book is more chaulk full of statistics than any other source i own....yet his books are among the most controversial published due to the conclusions he made.

We had a copy of Volume I of Hitler's U-Boat War when I worked at the local library which had been desecrated. Some turd had taken it home and added his little "notes" to over 100 pages.

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RE: WolfPacks - 9/20/2006 9:18:20 PM

Nikademus

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LoL

Since we have two sources listed one for the UK view, one for the KM view, it should probably be said that Blair's "Hitler's Uboat war" series (two books) can be said to be the "US view"

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