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RE: This is Carlos - 10/19/2006 12:29:56 PM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		I can vouch for Golden Bear's comments re the in game joke.  My first 1943 Axis game (which I lost) showed that the game could not last 700 turns because as soon as the West Wall collapses, the loss of territory and industry points was too rapid and the Allies would reach the points target well before 1 May 1945, thereby making the last 2 months completely redundant.

Alfred

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Post #: 31
RE: This is Carlos - 10/19/2006 2:16:22 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Dang Carlos, you pulling out all the stops, you hitting all the right buttons, you show off Gabby, then you show off a Mc and now you show a Polish Spit

you pop up with one of my next favorites, I know you are spieing

well, if it is dead, post some more and liven the place up




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Post #: 32
RE: This is Carlos - 10/19/2006 2:22:05 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Fudge, lets try again, last try crashed out

interesting, but overall, I think that was the plan, once the Westwall fell, what else is there for the GE to do ?, to be honest, they have to win before the Westwall falls, it is pretty much no longer a Air War by that time

(none of my games have lasted long enough to see the Westwall fall or the Russians come in from the East)

do you remember what patch verison or OOB you were playing at the time


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Post #: 33
RE: This is Carlos - 10/19/2006 6:43:43 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Here's a nice one from a different theatre. I don't think they had too many Polish pilots though...




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Post #: 34
RE: This is Carlos - 10/19/2006 6:45:19 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		This one does have a pilot of Polish ancestry. The picture was taken before the model was quite complete.




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Post #: 35
RE: This is Carlos - 10/19/2006 7:54:36 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Alexander Vraciu, before he transfered to VF 16 ?




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Post #: 36
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 11:42:08 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge,

IIRC, it was stock OOB, v.1.3 versus Allied AI.  Since then I have learned my lesson and the Axis has won each JCL 1943 campaign version within 6 months at the latest.  However my current 1944 campaign looks like revisiting the in joke again.

I agree with your comments re Westwall.  The point is that (a) contrary to what the game files suggest, there really is no draw result available - if the Axis does not win early (say by April 1944) then it is practically a guaranteed Allied victory, and (b) some of the Axis OOB (eg a couple of Hungarian units and German units scheduled to arrive about 650+ turns) will not actually arrive because of lost territory which is hard coded irrespective of how the air war is progressing.

Alfred

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Post #: 37
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 2:54:49 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		let me do some looking on this, that looks like it may of been a bug that was not known about

the units should of still came in, base on there Command, not on any land area


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Post #: 38
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 4:15:26 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		This one didn't have a Polish pilot...

The F6F was indeed Vraciu with VF6, on Intrepid




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Post #: 39
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 5:17:44 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		LOL
if it didn't it should of :)





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Post #: 40
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 5:22:58 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alfred

Hard Sarge,

IIRC, it was stock OOB, v.1.3 versus Allied AI. Since then I have learned my lesson and the Axis has won each JCL 1943 campaign version within 6 months at the latest. However my current 1944 campaign looks like revisiting the in joke again.

I agree with your comments re Westwall. The point is that (a) contrary to what the game files suggest, there really is no draw result available - if the Axis does not win early (say by April 1944) then it is practically a guaranteed Allied victory, and (b) some of the Axis OOB (eg a couple of Hungarian units and German units scheduled to arrive about 650+ turns) will not actually arrive because of lost territory which is hard coded irrespective of how the air war is progressing.

Alfred


now that is odd, only 2 units that I see that should come in after 500 turns, and that is JV44 and one of the Ground attack Staffels

wonder if you were not seeing some of the units that are in the data base but not meant to be in the game (those normally have a 999 delay date and late in the war, they look like they may come into the game)

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Post #: 41
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 6:45:14 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		It's a PZL P24G. The Polish Air Force didn't bother to buy any for themselves and only a few were built and exported. This one flew for Greece and, IIRC, knocked a LW plane down by ramming it and then flying down to capture the pilot.

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Post #: 42
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 6:51:25 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		Here's another BTR plane for you:




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Post #: 43
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 6:51:59 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		...and a detail of the cockpit:




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Post #: 44
RE: This is Carlos - 10/20/2006 7:12:44 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Nice

man, you must got a big Selve sitting around someplace, loaded for bear with models !




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Post #: 45
RE: This is Carlos - 10/21/2006 1:03:10 AM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Very nice Carlos. Very nice.

As HS says do you have a spare garage for these?

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Post #: 46
RE: This is Carlos - 10/21/2006 3:28:44 PM   
Golden Bear

 

Posts: 190
Joined: 3/27/2006
Status: offline 		No, I just have models stuffed in every available spare space! The wife is surprisingly tolerant. She likes best my biplane models.

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Post #: 47
RE: This is Carlos - 10/22/2006 9:26:48 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge,

I went back and had a look at my old stock, v.1.03 directory to look at the OOB under the Summary tag. I am not claiming that any of this is a bug, it's just my recollection.

Luftflotte 4 has two late arriving units:

M.101 equipped with Me 110G-4/U8 arriving after 480 days
M.102 equipped with Me 110G-4/U8 arriving after 510 days

With the effluxion of time, I can't recall whether or not M.101 actually arrived but I am fairly certain that M.102 did not arrive because the location of Luftflotte 4 HQ was overrun by the Soviets before the 510 days had elapsed. To avoid this happening, you would need to locate Luftflotte 4 HQ west of Vienna because the Soviets are scripted to overrun all territory up to and including the eastern suburbs of Vienna. As Hungarian forces fought until the end, I think a case can be made for treating Luftflotte 4 differently from Luftflotte Sud Ost.

With regard to Luftflotte Reich, 6 units are scheduled to arrive 600+ days:

Stab/JG5 equipped with FW 190A arriving after 600 days
III/JG5 equipped with Me 109G-6/R6 arriving after 630 days
IV/JG5 equipped with FW 190A arriving after 600 days
II/JG400 equipped with Me 163B arriving after 600 days
III/JG400 equipped with Me 163B arriving after 600 days
Stab/JG400 equipped with Me 163B arriving after 600 days

Again I can't recall whether or not I actually did receive the 5 units scheduled to arrive after 600 days but I don't think the game lasted until turn 630. Maybe a better Axis defence might have prolonged the game a few more turns, but my recollection was that once the Westwall fell, the rate at which German territory was overrun (both east and west), and consequent loss of industry, made it impossible for the game to last 700 turns.

In short, the Axis will lose in April 1945 and is not allowed to survive the 700 turns until mid July 1945 and earn a draw. Of course it could just be that a better Axis player might survive 700 turns.

Alfred

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Post #: 48
RE: This is Carlos - 10/22/2006 11:00:03 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		hmmm

in my data base
I do not have Stab JG5
III/JG5
IV/JG5

II/JG400 comes in 444
III is not there
Stab JG400 comes in 450

(we have a reseach Stab for 400, Stab and I and II gruppen)

I completely reworked the Huns, M.101 and M.102 were renamed and do not come in that late

I can look at the placement of the HQ


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Post #: 49
RE: This is Carlos - 10/22/2006 11:15:07 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		I have move the 4 HQ to 1109/625

can you tell if that area gets over ran ???




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Post #: 50
RE: This is Carlos - 10/22/2006 11:36:22 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge,

I'm not at my computer at present but I will check and get back to you later.  Remember, I am working here from memory and I don't want to create any unnecessary work for the team.  I do appreaciate that you think there is merit in relocating the HQ to a safer location.

I assume when you refer to your database you mean the new one that will ship with the game when released.  If so, that means Stab and II/JG 400 will now be much more useful than they were in the original stock version.

Alfred

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Post #: 51
RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 4:50:38 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge,

The new HQ location will still be overrun eventually (late Jan/early Feb 1945 IIRC).  If you want Luftflotte 4 to survive the entire 700 turns, I think the x co-ordinate needs to be less than 1,000 (ie located west of Vienna) because by Feb 1945 the eastern half of Vienna is scripted to be overrun by the Soviets.

Alfred

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Post #: 52
RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 7:14:11 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Yuck

I may be able to keep moving it, but it really may need to be looked at with in the code, to move it as the front moves

but for now we can work on a simi fix


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Post #: 53
RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 9:18:00 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge,

Sorry about the extra work. Even your semi fix is an unexpected bonus.

I have never been totally satisfied with the scripted front moves.  It probably can't be done with the existing engine, but particularly with the Italian and French fronts, it would be more logical to base the rate of overrun there on the level of Allied success in Avalanche and Overlord, as disclosed in the "List Targets" tag.  For the Axis player he has an additional inconvenience on the eastern front in that unlike Italy and France, he can't click on the "Urban" filter and see where the front line will eventually stabilise.

Alfred

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Post #: 54
RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 9:26:57 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Well no hassle on that

I thought the game did work on a system that the front was based on how well the "score" was going

but not much was really know about the end game phase (lots of stuff was never seen)

we will look at it, but not sure when we can do anything about or how to try and "fix" it



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Post #: 55
RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 1:26:41 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Been running some tests (got to be sure the Installer works the way it is suppost to)

so a few short shots of the results

(which don't forget, I am a master at plotting, from way back, so results may be different based on who plots, also, I was doing save tests, so is funny, the 2nd try, I got almost double the kills as the first test, but same plot)

first off, sent out a 3 FG sweep to a It AF (Contone ?) which is odd, as the 3 groups, looks like two of them were pulled off to defend themselfs, while the other one made it to the target

which I have cut down some of the shot as it is marked as a placeholder, so don't want to show off all the placeholder stuff






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RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 1:31:45 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		which if you see, there morale is pretty low, after what should of been a decent mission, look at the planes in repair, they got shot up pretty good, a little rest or bad weather and they be good to go again

this one was just to show that FBs can get kills, will also say, the test yesterday had me losing ten canes, so timeing and placement is still better then pure skill (2 B-17s raids to Paris, with a Mitchell raid to Tilly, with the Canes and Whirlwinds popping up inbtween, worked well, with another 17 raid into Belgum, and Bostons and B-26s raiding AFs in the North)








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Post #: 57
RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 1:48:29 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		and may as well show off the glory boys for the day

(Odd, the 47s of the VIIIth got like 9 for 3 losses)

plan was 3 Med raids into Corica, and sweeps, to draw attention away from the 17s that were going to overfly the island and head deep

(both sets a decent gamble vs the It, not a good idea vs the Ge)

overall, a very good day, the Axis lost 160 planes, I lost 57, I picked up a point of AS, 4 points of ID and about 3000 points worth of Te

I moved over 500 points of Squadrons into new bases (1st turn we get 1000 movement points)

(in case you do not follow that last statement, each plane counts as 1 point, so a Squadron of 27 planes would cost 27 points to move, a FG with 72 planes would cost 72 points (I moved 2 FGs of 39s closer to where I wanted, so that is 154 points)

(in BTR, the GE can also move AA guns, and those come off of the same movement points, as do RR AA guns units, so, pretty much, if you do not like the set up at the beginning, you got a pretty good chance to change it what you want)

(the Allies in BTR are going to have local AS any where close to there bases, it is going to be very HARD to defend the coasts and it is intended to be this way)




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RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 5:15:40 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Day 3

the heroes of the day are shared between the 56th FG with 16 kills, and the 79th FG with another 13 Ground kills

(56th scores 16 kills vs 2 losses, while the 79th gets 13 ground kills and shot down 5 planes while losing 5 of there own)




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Post #: 59
RE: This is Carlos - 10/23/2006 7:33:36 PM   
Denniss

 

Posts: 7902
Joined: 1/10/2002
From: Germany, Hannover (region)
Status: offline 		Do you have an idea how many (if any) Axis pilots are wounded or killed with the ground kills ?

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Post #: 60
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