Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

I have a question about the Air to Air combat results when using for example the Twin-Engined Fighter optional rule. This optional states "In air-to-air combat during the day, all front fighters with an orange air-to-air rating achieve one result less than normal when the front enemy fighter in the combat does not have an orange air-to-air rating. In these cases an AX result becomes a DX, a DX becomes an AA, an AA becomes a DA and so on. A DC result is unaffected. "

This in itself is no problem.

However, consider this example:

A single German Twin-Engined FTR-5 (orange A2A) is escorting an LND on a day mission to London. They are intercepted by a single Commonwealth FTR-5 (black A2A).

In the resulting air combat, the German player rolls a lucky 19. In the "0"-column of the A2A chart this results in an AX, with a Red background. As per the Twin-engined option above, this results becomes a DX. My question is regarding the background colour. Should the Red background colour also "achieve one less result" and thus becoming Orange/Brown?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck
I thought so too, but that means essentially that no red results can occur when applying the twin-engined optional to a result. Ie, there is no chance of killing the pilot in the example above.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frederyck

I have a question about the Air to Air combat results when using for example the Twin-Engined Fighter optional rule. This optional states "In air-to-air combat during the day, all front fighters with an orange air-to-air rating achieve one result less than normal when the front enemy fighter in the combat does not have an orange air-to-air rating. In these cases an AX result becomes a DX, a DX becomes an AA, an AA becomes a DA and so on. A DC result is unaffected. "

This in itself is no problem.

However, consider this example:

A single German Twin-Engined FTR-5 (orange A2A) is escorting an LND on a day mission to London. They are intercepted by a single Commonwealth FTR-5 (black A2A).

In the resulting air combat, the German player rolls a lucky 19. In the "0"-column of the A2A chart this results in an AX, with a Red background. As per the Twin-engined option above, this results becomes a DX. My question is regarding the background colour. Should the Red background colour also "achieve one less result" and thus becoming Orange/Brown?

The 19 result is a Red AX, would become an Orange DX.
A 18 result (Red DX) would become an AA.
A 16-17 result (orange DX) would become an AA too.

If it wasn't like that, you'd have on a 16 an Orange DX becoming an Orange AA which can't exist, as in an Abort the Pilot is not destroyed.

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Patrice I really don't think that interpretation is widely held. Our group has always played that only the lettered result is downgraded and colors for pilot losses stay the same, they just may become non-applicable when a kill turns into an abort. The RAW is totally silent in both text and example on doing it as you suggest, so why assume this? I would at least like to see this discussed with the rules clarification committee (if not submitted to Harry) to get an indication as to which of us is from planet Pluto.

As a side note, a DA fired by an orange fighter becomes a blank and a blank becomes an AC, many times this can be overlooked or the blank left out of the range of possibilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
Patrice I really don't think that interpretation is widely held. Our group has always played that only the lettered result is downgraded and colors for pilot losses stay the same, they just may become non-applicable when a kill turns into an abort. The RAW is totally silent in both text and example on doing it as you suggest, so why assume this? I would at least like to see this discussed with the rules clarification committee (if not submitted to Harry) to get an indication as to which of us is from planet Pluto.

As a side note, a DA fired by an orange fighter becomes a blank and a blank becomes an AC, many times this can be overlooked or the blank left out of the range of possibilities.

OK, I would not have thought that it could be played / thought this way, so as you are, I'll add this question to the list, first by passing it to the rules clarifications yahoogroup.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wifchart.pdf (If we go by severity it should look like this)

AX - The Attacker (player rolling) destroys the Defenders front fighter or bomber
DX - The Defender (player not rolling) destroys their own front fighter or bomber
AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber
DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber
AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat)

Since there would be no possiable Bounce Combat (this being an AC not a DC result) would this be considered an AA when the Attacker is guarding bombers?

DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat)
"-" No effect

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFe-RAW-7.0.pdf

Option 53: (Twin-engined fighters) In air-to-air combat during the day, all front fighters with an orange air-to-air rating achieve one result less than normal when the front enemy fighter in the combat does not have an orange air-to-air rating. In these cases an AX result becomes a DX, a DX becomes an AA, an AA becomes a DA and so on. A DC result is unaffected.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFe-RAW-7.0.pdf

Option 22: (Bounce Combat) When the result of any air-to-air combat is a “DC”, the Defender may choose to implement it normally (see 14.3.3) or may instead convert the result into a “bounce” combat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFFe-RAW-7.0.pdf

14.6.4 Pilot deaths
If an aircraft unit is destroyed, the pilot can die with it. This happens if the aircraft was destroyed:
• in a sea area where that side has neither a naval unit nor a port;
• by an orange air-to-air combat result and the combat was over any sea area or enemy controlled hex;
• by a red air-to-air combat result;
• by anti-aircraft fire (see 11.5.9 & 22.4.2);
• by being overrun on the ground (see 11.11.6);
• by being in its home country when it is conquered (see 13.7.1);
• because it cannot return to base (see 13.4);
• option 32: by carpet bombing (see 11.8);
• option 59: if it is marked with a black death’s head (see 14.7); or
• option 60: while flying a kamikaze mission (see 14.8).

quote:

20 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
19 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
18 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
17 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
16 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
15 ~ DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
14 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
13 ~ No effect.
12 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
11 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
10 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
9 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
8 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
7 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
6 ~ DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
5 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
4 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
3 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
2 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.

quote:

Since "Option 53" is only referenced in rule "14.3 Air-to-air combat ~ 14.3.2 Combat" then only the lettered result should be reduced. AX becomes DX, DX becomes AA, AA becomes DA, and DC is unaffected (it isn't a "No effect"). A DC remaining a DC allows for for Option 22 (Bounce Combat) or a bomber being cleared through. It looks to me like it was planned for Option 22 and 53 to be used together.

The color of the result should remain unchanged. This is reflected on wifchart.pdf only AX and DX results have red or orange colors. Pilot death is only possiable when the aircraft was destroyed.

IMO: if a Twin-engined fighter rolled a 19, then the result should be that the Defender would destroy their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.

quote:

quote:
20 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
19 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
18 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
17 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
16 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
15 ~ DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
14 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
13 ~ No effect.
12 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
11 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
10 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
9 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
8 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
7 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
6 ~ DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
5 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
4 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
3 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
2 ~ DX - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.

quote:

20 ~ DX Red - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
19 ~ DX Red - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
18 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
17 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
16 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
15 ~ DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
14 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
13 ~ No effect.
12 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
11 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
10 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
9 ~ DC - The Defender clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
8 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
7 ~ AC - The Attacker clears through any one Defender bomber (No possiable Bounce Combat).
6 ~ DA - The Defender aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
5 ~ AA - The Attacker aborts the Defenders front fighter or bomber.
4 ~ DX Green - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
3 ~ DX Green - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
2 ~ DX Green - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.

quote:


Reduce the results of air to air combat by 1 level:
an AX becomes a DX
a DX becomes an AA
an AA becomes a DA
a DA becomes a -
a - becomes an AC
an AC becomes a DC).

quote:

I still would like Harrys input on this. It seems strange to me that "No effect" is not the lowest result possiable.

quote:

It seems strange to me that "No effect" is not the lowest result possiable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

It seems strange to me that "No effect" is not the lowest result possiable.

When you are the attacker, the best result is AX.
YOU choose to DESTROY a front enemy plane.
Then there is the DX. There is still an enemy plane destruction, but the enemy chooses which one of his front planes.

Then, there are the Aborts, with the same logic.
The better for you is AA as you choose which enemy front plane ABORTS the mission to base.
Then there is the DA, where the enemy chooses. This is still an abort, but the enemy chooses it.

Then there is the - (no result). This is not destructive toward the enemy NOR does it clears enemy planes. Clearing enemy planes is worse than that, because they are cleared, they will bomb you now. Achieving a - (no effect) at least keeps them right into your sights to shoot at them next time. Clearing them, they're gone, unhampered.

Then there is the AC result. YOU chooses which enemy planes can clear to its objective. This is the less worse of the Clear results for you, as YOU can choose the less efficient bomber.

And then, finally, there is the worst result that you can achieve on a plane YOU are ATTACKING, that is, the plane is not only missed, but it clears through to its objective.

Clearly, a DC is the worst you can achieve as an air to air combat result when you roll the dices to attack your enemy's planes.

Moreover, if you have a DC, your enemy could even spring back the attack on yourself by Bouncing ones of your planes. Not only you did achieve no destructive result on your enemy, but you managed to open a hole in your defense so that the enemy can now strike whatever planes they want in your group Great.

DC is clearly the worst.

quote:

20 ~ DX Red - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
19 ~ DX Red - The Defender destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would die.
18 ~ AA - The Attacking (rolling) player aborts the Defending (non-rolling) players front fighter or bomber.
17 ~ AA - The Attacking (rolling) player aborts the Defending (non-rolling) players front fighter or bomber.
16 ~ AA - The Attacking (rolling) player aborts the Defending (non-rolling) players front fighter or bomber.
15 ~ DA - The Defending (non-rolling) player aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
14 ~ No effect.
13 ~ No effect.
12 ~ DC - The Defending (non-rolling) player clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
11 ~ DC - The Defending (non-rolling) player clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
10 ~ DC - The Defending (non-rolling) player clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
9 ~ DC - The Defending (non-rolling) player clears through any one bomber (possiable Bounce Combat).
8 ~ No effect.
7 ~ No effect.
6 ~ DA - The Defending (non-rolling) player aborts their own front fighter or bomber.
5 ~ AA - The Attacking (rolling) player aborts the Defending (non-rolling) players front fighter or bomber.
4 ~ DX Green - The Defending (non-rolling) player destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
3 ~ DX Green - The Defending (non-rolling) player destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.
2 ~ DX Green - The Defending (non-rolling) player destroys their own front fighter or bomber and the Pilot would live.

quote:

14.3.3 Combat results ~ Example:

Therefore, the Commonwealth combat value is “+3” (5-2) and the Italian combat value is “-3” (2-5). Maria rolls a 9 on the -3,4 column giving a result of ‘AC’ which is ignored, since all the Commonwealth bombers are already cleared through.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Nice.

The point of controversy is whether the bottom table has:
1 - all red DX's (as in your picture),
2 - all orange DX's, or
3 - a mixture of orange DX's (-3, -2, -1, +1, +4, +8) and red DX's (0, +2, +6).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Look, I made this, that compares the Air to Air table with normal FTRs (top) and the one used by Orange circled & non night fighters fighting at night (bottom).

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since there are both 1-engine and twin-engine night fighters, I would suggest that twin-engine fighters, whether normal or night fighters, suffer the diminished results whatever time of day if they are fighting 1-engine fighters. 1-engine fighters only suffer the diminished results if they are normal fighters engaged in a2a combat at night.

Does that seem clear?

Edit: For example, the Defiants that the CW has in '39 (3 a2a factors) are 1-engine night fighters.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Since there are both 1-engine and twin-engine night fighters, I would suggest that twin-engine fighters, whether normal or night fighters, suffer the diminished results whatever time of day if they are fighting 1-engine fighters. 1-engine fighters only suffer the diminished results if they are normal fighters engaged in a2a combat at night.

Does that seem clear?

Edit: For example, the Defiants that the CW has in '39 (3 a2a factors) are 1-engine night fighters.

RAW is :
******************************
Option 53: (Twin-engined fighters) In air-to-air combat during the day, all front fighters with an orange air-to-air rating achieve one result less than normal when the front enemy fighter in the combat does not have an orange air-to-air rating.

During air-to-air combat (see 14.3.2) at night, all aircraft except night fighters (those aircraft with a black circle around its air-to-air rating) achieves one result less than normal.
******************************

So a Ju88C (orange + night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would not suffer from disminished results when fighting at night.
But a Bf109E (non orange + non night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would suffer from disminished results when fighting at night.
And a Bf110D (orange + non night fighter) facing a Defiant (non orange + night fighter) would suffer from disminished results when fighting at night, but not because of being orange, because of not being a night fighter.

The WiF Zen for that IMO is that night fighting levels the differences between planes' flight characteristics and handling, and what is really predominant is whether the plane has detection abilities or not. A Ju88C is not very manoeuverable, that's why it is orange, so it suffers from lessened results during the day, but during the night its detection capabilities allow him to fight efficiently even if less manoeuverable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

14.2.3 Night missions (option 52) is an optional rule.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeBert
Without knowing the detais of the rules for this topic I´d just like to add that Fighter Combats at night almost never happened (at least in the european theatre) for two reasons:
1. Bombers were not escorted until late war (1944?) by fighters so the defending night fighters only had to "fight" against the defense-weapons of the bombers (the biggest fight was to find and reach those bombers!)
2. It was almost impossible for night fighters to find each other until late war when allied NF had new RADAR with cm-waves and enough power to reach high airspeeds.

Even then (1944/45) the bombers itself were not escorted reguarly by NF. A2A-Combat happened when the german NF were attacked when they returned to their airbases.

I think that a game with such a large scale for the aircombat should not allow such in reality rare combats at all - just my opinion....