So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations?

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So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations?

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Sports] >> PureSim Baseball >> The Locker >> So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations?

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So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 10/25/2006 9:30:12 PM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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Yeah, it's been endlessly argued, but which works better in Pure Sim? For my historical leagues (pre-1960), the 4 man rotation is considered gospel.

I don't know if anyone's studied injury potential based on pitcher usage in PS. However, here's an interesting article on pitcher injuries : http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2633

If one subscribes to the theory put forth in the article, then age and number of pitches per game are the primary influences on pitcher health, NOT the number of days rest between starts.

Any thoughts on this?

Post #: 1

RE: So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 10/25/2006 10:08:57 PM

looneyluden

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Joined: 6/15/2006
Status: offline

I use 5 man rotations in my fictional league and manage all games. I generally try to keep my pitchers at or below 100 pitches per game, unless they are pitching a gem, and only need another inning or so for the complete game. But even with keeping their average under 100 pitches, and five-man rotations, Puresim seems to try and make sure that I always have at least one starter on the DL.

Not that I mind though, because it wouldn't be realistic to have my starters all throw 200 innings +.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 2

RE: So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 10/26/2006 4:00:00 AM

robpost3

Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2006
From: the backwoods of Mass.
Status: offline

I use 4 man rotation, modern closer and use rating scale of 100. My method is basicall a 100 endurance is a pitcher who could go 9 innings or 120 pitches which in my opinion seems to be the max a worhorse like that should go. Basically its rating as max innings or pitches + 20 depending on the way pitcher is performing, unless it is a unique situation i.e. no hit, etc. Mine is a 1925 fantasy league and this seems to make sense as a pitcher with a stam of 65 is probably only good for 6-1/2 innings or 85 pitches though if he is "on his game" he could be throwing under 10 picthes an inning which would bring him to complete game though he would have to be "hot" and thus this would or should rarely happen as K's tend eat more pitches per inning unless he's tossing 1-3 pitch ground/fly outs. As to fatigue, yeah when my 95 stam throws 115 pitches he's totally worn so given age etc it should equate outside the random/luck factor to raise injury proneness. So pitchers "on their game" may be more more focused/relaxed then pushing your stamina limits to clear 5 innings of tough throwing with 10-25 pitches each hard earned inning.

_____________________________

The Yankee Motto:
Use it up,
Wear it out,
Make do,
Or do without.
"God Help us, and God, come yourself.
Don't send Jesus, this is no place for children."

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 3

RE: So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 10/29/2006 2:43:08 AM

Sandman62

Posts: 13
Joined: 7/12/2006
Status: offline

I think that in the Major Leagues the teams should use a 3 man rotation. Don't throw on the first day after your start and limit throws between games. The theory behind this ( according to Bill James ) would be that you can get more quality games from your team using only 3 VG pitchers and take them out after 75-90 pitches thrown. This will give most pitchers about 5-7 innings then come in with a good bullpen. This works in theory because your 4th and 5th starters are no where as good as 1 or 2 starters (which would replace the 4 and 5 in a rotation). This would give your starters 54 starts but with an average of about 300 innings pitched. Number 1,2 and some number 3 starters have success with this number of innings. So instead of a number one starting 34 games and winning 15-20, he starts 54 and wins 22-27. and only increases his innings from around 250 to 300 over a course of a season. A pitcher today could handle the extra innings because most of the recovery is between starts and the high number of pitches thrown. A reason that this is not done is because the MLBPA wants each team to have more players (starting pitchers included) so that more income is generated for the association.

I wish that Puresim had this option available for sims. I use a 3 man in a current association and have had good luck with it playing out the games but I am only at the 40 game mark and will review it at the halfway point in the season. The only down part is that the pitchers are all showing as tired no matter how few innings I pitch them. Not too realistic but part of the programming logic due to the way that REAL baseball works...

_____________________________

(in reply to robpost3)

Post #: 4

RE: So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 11/6/2006 6:29:59 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline

Interesting thoughts, guys. Historically, it seems that most teams had 2 or 3 guys that could go 30-35 starts, with the 4th slot being filled by a combination of spot starters.  You gotta take into account that the schedules used to contain a number of doubleheaders. These are now a thing of the past, unless forced by make-up games due to rainouts.

This practice seemed to be commonplace in the 1940s-50s.   Since I manage every game, I can keep a close watch on pitcher health and try to use a common-sense approach.   This requires some planning ahead, but the bottom-line is to keep the top guys in the rotation as much as possible while minimizing their chances of injury.

I'm gonna start writing out the rotations in two-week increments, and update them each week.   In this fashion, I can allow for the double-headers and still give my best guys 3 days' rest between starts.

(in reply to Sandman62)

Post #: 5

RE: So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 11/7/2006 3:58:30 PM

robpost3

Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2006
From: the backwoods of Mass.
Status: offline

After doing a bit of research I started a new fictional league with a 4 man rotation no closer starting in 1925, and I would very much like to follow your postings reagrding your progress notes. Oh and by the way greetings

your posts on the forums have been very helpful and thoughtful.
I prefer the 4 man for the reason you just stated and it gives a more flexible approach to managing ( I too manage all my games).
Follow up thought to you: what is your method and or preference for drafting...when I draft especially if I start a league in the early part of the century I usally go 1st round with a power hitter then spend next two on starters then a leadoff man, starter, fielder etc., until my rotation/fielders are done. At that point a I draft next 8 with position players with an eye for upcoming talent to fill my bench ((noting which satrting players are keepers or depending on season performance, potential trades) bearing that in mind it gives me a good gauge for platooning prospects with declining veterens and giving my young bench major league experience)...then all pitchers....then all fielder prospects...my reasoning is that pitching played a more importatnt role historically then it does "now a days", if I Pick high or low in the draft I may flip my 1st rounder i.e. starter instead of hitter or if the pool is especially lean on pitching i will spend up to my first 3 picks on starters. I tend to lean first round toward that power hitter as they seem to be gobbled up in the first 10 or so picks so it is greatly helpful but not end-all-be-all for a well balenced team to get at least one moon-shooter.

_____________________________

The Yankee Motto:
Use it up,
Wear it out,
Make do,
Or do without.
"God Help us, and God, come yourself.
Don't send Jesus, this is no place for children."

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 6

RE: So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 11/8/2006 6:01:20 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline

Well, I put my association on hold once again, until Shaun comes back and works out the details of the final 07 patch.

I usually go with a 50-man all-real player historical roster, with early entry of players. I can't get into using fictional players at all.

As for a draft, I pick my starting pitchers first. Primary concerns -- stuff and control. This is because of my home field -- Forbes Field. I then pick a power hitter, and fill out my starting lineup -- I concentrate on contact hitting and defense. Speed is fine, but a secondary concern. Getting on base and advancing runners is the thing for me -- nothing kills an inning like a CS. My home field lends itself to bunts, sac flies, deep singles and doubles, not HRs.

Conversely, players with good range and arms are de rigeur in a park like Forbes.

We've talked about drafting philosophies elsewhere, so it's a managerial style -- playing field thing.

(in reply to robpost3)

Post #: 7

RE: So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 11/8/2006 6:29:22 PM

robpost3

Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2006
From: the backwoods of Mass.
Status: offline

Hmmm-I was swingin on a fence about doing the same until the final patch, perhaps I wil and muck about with something else---until later then---cheers!

_____________________________

The Yankee Motto:
Use it up,
Wear it out,
Make do,
Or do without.
"God Help us, and God, come yourself.
Don't send Jesus, this is no place for children."

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 8

RE: So-- 4 man or 5 man pitching rotations? - 11/10/2006 3:11:49 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: robpost3

Hmmm-I was swingin on a fence about doing the same until the final patch, perhaps I wil and muck about with something else---until later then---cheers!

Rob, I went through the routine of setting up yet another draft league, and after looking over the official schedule for 1946, it seems that double-headers were usually followed by a travel day. So, for a 4-man rotation, it works out well. As I've mentioned, I draft for four solid young starting pitchers as the base of my franchise, so having to tweak the rotation to fit the schedule isn't necessary most of the time.

In the first four rounds, I alternate between starter-batter. Doing this, my '46 Pirates have Warren Spahn(25), Larry Jensen (26), Robin Roberts (20) and Bob Lemon (26). I'm set for the next 4 or 5 years.

One more thing ( and perhaps the most important): this is the reserve-clause era, so I turn financials OFF. This guarantees a high level of competition across the two leagues. I will not initiate any trades, but I will respond to AI offers. You are forced to build through the farm system.

That being said, I just wanted to establish the template for future play, so I'm still gonna put this on hold til later.

(in reply to robpost3)

Post #: 9