RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet!

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [American Civil War] >> Forge of Freedom: The American Civil War 1861-1865 >> RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet!

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 11:39:07 AM

Paper Tiger

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OK it will be interesting to see how a winter campaign plays out.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 4:59:09 PM

Joram

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

My 1st Corps was defeated in Bowling Green, even though I'm almost certain that it outnumbered the enemy force and was clearly superior to it, and the USA suffered most of the casualties. I'd love to know what the heck happened...

So would I, if that happened to me. Does the game give no information at all, beyond the bare statement of who won and what the casualties were?

When the casualty figures suggest a resounding win but the claimed result is a defeat, it looks like a defect in the game. I would send in a bug report unless the game provided some convincing explanation of the result.

I realize that battles were sometimes won by the side with the greater casualties. But was there ever a battle in which the winning side suffered more than three times the casualties of the loser? It's conceivable if the losing side was entrenched but heavily outnumbered; but that doesn't seem to have been the case here.

First, thanks for continuing the AAR, it's very good. Second, may I suggest some kind of "battle-log" that contains approximately what happened so a player could inspect it if he wishes. I think it would at a minimum show the firing unit, the target unit and any modifiers (flanking, morale, leadership, etc...).

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 5:50:07 PM

Jonathan Palfrey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram
May I suggest some kind of "battle-log" that contains approximately what happened so a player could inspect it if he wishes. I think it would at a minimum show the firing unit, the target unit and any modifiers (flanking, morale, leadership, etc...).

Are instant battles really resolved by shuffling invisible units around behind the scenes and having them fire at each other? It seems very complicated to me and not guaranteed to produce sensible results. I would have expected some kind of formula (including a random element) into which you put in the various input parameters and out pop the results.

An advantage of the formula method is that it's probably easier to tweak if the results are not coming out quite right.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 6:31:04 PM

Gil R.

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Who's to say that a simple formula is most accurate?

Anyway, the game is programmed, and there's no need to completely redo this aspect. If there's something wrong with the results they can be tweaked just the way a formula could have been.

Okay, about to start posting. Let's move future discussions of Hood to the generals' ratings sub-forum, so that they don't get overlooked.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 6:37:41 PM

Gil R.

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Twenty-ninth Turn

This turn was a great one for the South -- Jackson was freed after a major battle that sank the North into greater despair, and another naval battle off the coast of Florida further whittled away one of the Union's two fleets.

First, the Event Report, which shows Tallahassee standing strong. The almost complete lack of casualties in the garrison indicates to me that the Union force must be out of supplies, or just about out.

And Jackson managed to hold together...

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 6:42:31 PM

Gil R.

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...long enough for the 4th Corps to beat back the Union army, which this time didn't put up nearly the fight it did last time. My strategy of waiting a harrowing turn while Jackson was in danger of falling paid off, since I was able to bulk up this force with reinforcements.

USA National Will is now down even further, which is excellent news. If it stays down this low come April, when population gets refreshed, the North won't be able to replace its population levels 100%, which will impair their efforts for the coming year. But a lot can happen in four months...

Also, there are the results of the naval battle. My 20-inch Dahlgren blew a few more Union ships out of the water. (My hope is not that the damage was spread out among a few groups of ships, since their strength can be repaired, but that at least one whole group -- e.g., 1st Ships, or 2nd Ships, etc. -- got destroyed and therefore is eliminated.)

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 6:46:24 PM

Gil R.

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Disease struck Hill's division in Tuscumbia, but only two units lost Disposition (which Hill's leadership will quickly restore), and the losses can be replaced by setting the division on higher supply in order to ensure reinforcements are directed there. And since this division is not about to see battle this coming turn there's no long-term harm done.

Frankly, I'm amazed that the Army of Northern Virginia has gone so long without being hit again by disease. Disease hits a single brigade randomly and then spreads to other brigades in that province, and the ANV has the largest concentration. At least the two Hospitals in Lynchburg will protect it somewhat when disease does hit.

And diplomacy is paying off, but I don't have 60 Money for buying Lorenzs now that I'm back at two levels of diplomacy with the Other Europeans.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 6:48:31 PM

Gil R.

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Some details from the Battle of Jackson. If you remember, when the 4th Corps was defeated a few turns ago it lost some weapons, and now seems to have gained some back.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 6:50:08 PM

Gil R.

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Over in Virginia, winter movement restrictions again kept the small 2nd Division in Abingdon from going to Grafton, so I try again this turn. Otherwise, all quiet on the eastern front.

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< Message edited by Gil R. -- 11/29/2006 6:58:21 PM >

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 6:54:33 PM

Gil R.

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Having realized that no matter how badly off the corps besieging Tallahassee might be, it's not going away, I finally decide to send in a force to attack it. So, I take the other division that's been waiting in Abingdon (Virginia), the 8th Division, and send it by rail to Okefenokee. My guess is that even though I have enough railroad points to move it all the way it will take two turns to go there -- but once there, it should easily demolish the corps, since it will be fully supplied and in better shape. I set its priority high enough to steer some reinforcements to it and buy one brigade some Richmond Muskets.

In two turns it should be delivering the coup de grace, unless the Union is able to pull off a Dunkirk.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 6:57:20 PM

Gil R.

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Here's how the siege is going. The fact that the Union's army has grown a bit demonstrates to me that the Union has been reinforcing it. I've had some bad luck in that even though I've defeated the Union's fleet it managed to stay close enough to Tallahassee to reinforce and resupply. (If reinforcements are getting in, supplies must be as well.)

It was this that prompted me to send in the 8th Division, since my garrison can't hold on forever if the Union is able to continue its naval presence.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:00:26 PM

Gil R.

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And here's why the Union might be able to maintain that presence: the fleet that has been staying off the coast of Virginia is finally on its way.

I had been assuming that to take on some big guns it would have to go in to port first, but that was a bad assumption: Eric has confirmed for me that naval ships can take on new guns while at sea, which means that the enemy is likely to have done so before heading south. So, if that fleet didn't have a formidable array of guns before, now it probably does.

I debate whether I should go to meet that new fleet, but decide to attack the one in Apalache Bay once again, since maybe I can completely destroy it before the Union's larger fleet shows up. And when it does, it might defeat me but it won't destroy my fleet in a single battle, so if I find myself outgunned I can retreat to the shipyards of New Orleans or Norfolk for repairs.

Also, this turn my blockade-runners have an excellent shot at a lot of Guns, which next turn I might be able to use to buy another Dahlgren. So I'm concerned about that fleet, but not changing my strategy at all.

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< Message edited by Gil R. -- 11/29/2006 7:06:40 PM >

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:09:59 PM

Gil R.

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Westward, ho! Here's Mississippi.

Hill chased the Union's army to Yazoo, where, unless fog of war is playing tricks (which is possible, now that my Raiders are all gone), it was joined by much of the Union's army in Oxford.

If that happened, the Union could easily drive out the 4th Corps, so I can't leave it sitting there. What I decide to do is fortify its garrison and move out of the province. Jackson's defenses are perilously low, so if the North were to reinitiate a siege it would be a turn or two away from falling, but if I bulk it up it can last long enough for me to bring in all of my western forces for an even bigger battle. So, I take the 73rd Infantry out of the 4th Corps and put it in Jackson, and remove the 12th Infantry from that small division in Aberdeen and send it by rail to Jackson. That's 4000 more men. Plus, now that Jackson has a moment to breath I set the division inside it to a higher supply level, so that the brigades inside can be reinforced.

I also set the 1st Corps so that it will receive reinforcements, and purchase Brigade Artillery for one of its infantry brigades.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:11:42 PM

Gil R.

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Here's Tennessee. Since that bulk of the Union's army appears to have moved out of Oxford, that lone division in Hatchie looks like a juicy target...

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:13:43 PM

Gil R.

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So, even though I keep promising myself not to attack the enemy in its own territory, I can't resist sending in my my larger 1st Corps by rail.

If I get there and win this I'll have retaken Hatchie and again cut off supplies to the other Union forces.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:16:19 PM

Gil R.

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To help ensure victory, I send D.H. Hill's division by foot into the Upper Tennessee River province so that it can reinforce the 1st Corps. I then give it the "Support" command, which means that it will only enter Hatchie if the 1st Corps successfully enters that province first. A joint attack by these two forces would absolutely overwhelm the Union's division, even if those forces in Oxford reinforce.

Unfortunately, winter movement restrictions might prevent Hill's division from leaving Tuscumbia.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:18:05 PM

Gil R.

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The small 14th Division failed to take over Arkansas-Mississippi River because of winter movement rules last turn, so I try again. You'd think that if they can't march these men could just jump in the river and let the current take them downstream...

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:19:59 PM

Gil R.

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Next, I try to send the 2nd Army into Meridian. It still has just two brigades in it, since last turn Hill's division in Tuscumbia had been unable to move south to join up with it. Perhaps this turn I'll have better luck, and Stonewall Jackson will have a real army to command. (Seems like a waste of talent to have him commanding two somewhat depleted infantry brigades of low quality.)

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:21:37 PM

Gil R.

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And then I send A.P. Hill's 4th Corps into Meridian to join up with the 2nd Army.

Plus, I send the Partisans into Oxford, figuring that no matter what there will be a Union force there when the next turn begins.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:26:06 PM

Gil R.

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Here's what the 2nd Army will look like if all of these forces succeed in moving to Meridian. It would be at 50,000 men which is a good size, but there is room for thousands of reinforcements to squeeze in, especially now that I have the "Extended Service I" upgrade that lets brigades expand by 20% of their previous maximum strength. So even without adding the 1st Corps, this army has the potential to reach more than 70,000 men. (Of course, disease and march attrition will keep this army from ever reaching its full potential.)

I greatly doubt that the Union is about to enter Meridian this turn, but just in case I set the 2nd Army on "Avoid Battle." It will have plenty of opportunities for battles, but those are at least a turn away.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:31:23 PM

Gil R.

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Finally, I make one additional purchase: I've been ignoring the governor of Mississippi each turn as he has become more and more desperate for a Barracks to be built in his state (partly because I couldn't afford it, partly because I figured that if Jackson were to fall he would no longer be governor anyway), but now I finally build it for him, at a cost of 20 Labor and 50 Horses. (This leaves me with enough Horses that I should still have the 100 Horses needed to produce a new Raiders unit next turn.)

I then hit "End Turn" and get my choice of Weaponry upgrades. Here I got very lucky: so many of the upgrades obtainable through weapons research enable one to purchase expensive new guns that the South can't easily afford, but here I got "Rifle Manufacture," which will boost my output of Guns resources each turn by at least enough to buy new Minie Rifles for a brigade each turn. Previously I haven't been building many Armories -- which produce Guns -- because I could rely on my blockade-runners and raiders/partisans to capture Guns, but now I will have a new incentive for building them.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:35:18 PM

Gil R.

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And lastly, I promote Cleburne to command a division. As discussed above, I might soon promote him to command the entire corps, but for now I think I'll keep Hood in charge, since I want him to teach some special abilities to his brigades (and, secondarily, since I don't want to anger the governor of Texas when his Attitude is so favorable). I'll probably make a change soon, though.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 7:45:31 PM

Gil R.

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Oh, I should have noted that when I added those infantry brigades to Jackson I did so in the knowledge that I can always send them elsewhere once the threat to the city is gone.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 8:26:36 PM

Joram

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jonathan Palfrey

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram
May I suggest some kind of "battle-log" that contains approximately what happened so a player could inspect it if he wishes. I think it would at a minimum show the firing unit, the target unit and any modifiers (flanking, morale, leadership, etc...).

Are instant battles really resolved by shuffling invisible units around behind the scenes and having them fire at each other? It seems very complicated to me and not guaranteed to produce sensible results. I would have expected some kind of formula (including a random element) into which you put in the various input parameters and out pop the results.

An advantage of the formula method is that it's probably easier to tweak if the results are not coming out quite right.

Actually, I have no idea - I just assumed so considering the way quick combat was done. My point was that it would be nice to have some kind of battle report so you have some kind of inkling on why you won or lost. Right now it looks like it is pure guesswork.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 8:38:23 PM

Gil R.

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You're right about that, and we're already cogitating upon how to get more information to the player after PBEM battles.

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 9:36:53 PM

Joram

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

You're right about that, and we're already cogitating upon how to get more information to the player after PBEM battles.

Perfect. :)

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 11:29:03 PM

Tophat1815

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gil R.

You're right about that, and we're already cogitating upon how to get more information to the player after PBEM battles.

Perfect. :)

I agree as well,glad you fellows are already on this!

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/29/2006 11:34:33 PM

spruce

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seems like the intelligence pop up and the number of sieging troops displayed to you are not the same (post 401) ... is this intended - are both prone to errors - or is one of them the real figure - making it not logical to have 2 different displayed numbers?

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/30/2006 12:03:34 AM

Gil R.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: spruce

seems like the intelligence pop up and the number of sieging troops displayed to you are not the same (post 401) ... is this intended - are both prone to errors - or is one of them the real figure - making it not logical to have 2 different displayed numbers?

The pop-up is the fog of war figure, the one in the siege report the accurate one. I admit that it looks odd, but it might not be worth the programming effort to make the pop-up box disappear whenever one clicks on the siegeworks (the thing with the besieging country's flag that is located next to the city/fort). Since I'm not the programmer, I don't know...

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RE: PBEM AAR - It Ain't a Lost Cause Yet! - 11/30/2006 12:28:50 AM

genie144

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The question/comment from reading this AAR is the lack of intelligence acquired from battle. It seems to me that when you battle an army whether you win or lose the fog of war shouldn't as disastrously inaccurate as the fog of war appears to be... Anyways, I think I will go post in the other thread to get a move on... Need reading material for tomorrow, and this half a turn a day business is killing me...

Sam

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