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Hearts of iron - 11/21/2006 3:08:01 AM

charlieart66

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i come from a distant hearts of iron forum.
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/...play.php?f=255
and had the idea of a possible game merger between the two.
i will post this around because i feel this is the wrong place
( edit i hate only having 4 posts )

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/21/2006 4:28:07 AM

Sarge

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HOI

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/21/2006 7:15:36 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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quote:

( edit i hate only having 4 posts )

Hmm maybe he lost two of them somewhere? As of right now he only has two.

Man I think he's farther away than he realises.

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/21/2006 10:18:33 AM

JudgeDredd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

HOI

I love HoI2 and Doomsday just expands on the excellence that is a grand strategy wargame of unrivalled magnitude.

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/21/2006 10:28:21 PM

ShermanM4

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quote:

Hmm maybe he lost two of them somewhere? As of right now he only has two.

Man I think he's farther away than he realises.

I was beginning to wonder the same thing myself.

Did that link work for anybody?

< Message edited by ShermanM4 -- 11/21/2006 10:32:40 PM >

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/21/2006 11:07:45 PM

charlieart66

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its only because my other 2 posts got delted because i put them in the wrong place
any way back on topic...

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Post #: 6

RE: Hearts of iron - 11/21/2006 11:26:16 PM

Fred98

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I tried the demo of the game and decided It's not for me!

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 4:51:33 AM

TOCarroll

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HOI2 Really kicks butt!

. It IS however one mother of an endurance contest.....Makes TAO3 Fire in the East look like a quickie.

Great Strategic/Tactical WW2 game. If it were only turn-based or IgoUgo

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 6:52:50 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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quote:

its only because my other 2 posts got delted because i put them in the wrong place
any way back on topic...

What I would like to know, is what exactly was your topic supposed to be?

You first post was about as confusing as it gets. Thus far, it appears like everyone else here is just talking about whatever enters their minds at the moment.

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 9:48:00 AM

Ursa MAior

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That's what the freedom of speech is about

. You have a constitutional right to be hm hm confused.

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 11/22/2006 9:51:12 AM >

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 11:23:40 AM

String

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Man.. atleast these days someone admits to liking HoI over here..

back in the old days they'd crucify you for that

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Post #: 11

RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 12:12:56 PM

jvgfanatic

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As much as I loathe Paradox I really love HOI. The game aside, Matrix could learn a few things from it's interface as from a usability standpoint it is extraordinarily well designed.

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Post #: 12

RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 4:15:39 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jvgfanatic

As much as I loathe Paradox I really love HOI. The game aside, Matrix could learn a few things from it's interface as from a usability standpoint it is extraordinarily well designed.

Heheheheheheeh I wasn't going to say anything negative, but the less Matrix Games emulates ANYTHING connected with the HoI concept, the better.

I'm only on this thread, because I am STILL wondering what the bloke that started it was trying to say in his first post.

So far I have discerned he came from a far off distant HoI forum, and wants to merge two games (his link doesn't work so I have no idea which two), and that the dude appears lost (not to mention he can't seem to count).

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 4:32:33 PM

jvgfanatic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

quote:

ORIGINAL: jvgfanatic

As much as I loathe Paradox I really love HOI. The game aside, Matrix could learn a few things from it's interface as from a usability standpoint it is extraordinarily well designed.

Heheheheheheeh I wasn't going to say anything negative, but the less Matrix Games emulates ANYTHING connected with the HoI concept, the better.

I'm only on this thread, because I am STILL wondering what the bloke that started it was trying to say in his first post.

So far I have discerned he came from a far off distant HoI forum, and wants to merge two games (his link doesn't work so I have no idea which two), and that the dude appears lost (not to mention he can't seem to count).

Matrix's interfaces are pretty weak, while graphically nice they don't provide that extra layer of user interactivity that some of Paradox's games do. Paradox obviously employs someone who is schooled in cognitive sciences to help with the interfaces while Matrix buys into the "if it looks good, it must work good" mentality.

That's not to say that every Matrix game adheres to the policy but I do believe there is an overabundance of graphic fluff (I believe the exact word that Matrix uses is "plush") glued onto the front end of Matrix titles without a real adherence to usability.

There's a tendency amongst gamers that if a game isn't well liked then that game has nothing to offer. While this may be true oftentimes every game has at least one or two redeeming features. If HOI only has one redeeming feature it would be is exposure, just how exposed are the mechanics of the game and how readily are those mechanics conveyed to the user. In this regard HOI pretty much owns any Matrix title I've been exposed to. Whether HOI is a good game or not is irrelevant.

PS: Les, I ran the largest fan supported Japanese video game site on the net for over a decade. I still translate them when I can find the time...cheers!

< Message edited by jvgfanatic -- 11/22/2006 4:37:22 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 6:27:18 PM

dinsdale

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jvgfanatic
Matrix's interfaces are pretty weak, while graphically nice they don't provide that extra layer of user interactivity that some of Paradox's games do. Paradox obviously employs someone who is schooled in cognitive sciences to help with the interfaces while Matrix buys into the "if it looks good, it must work good" mentality.

I like paradox games, but this statement had me laughing.

Try:
1) Assning a general you wish to promote to a division
2) Selecting multiple air units in a province occupied by ground units
3) Effectively organizing your armies during real time
4) Adding an attachment to a unit overseas

If you think that's the result of "expertise" then I'd love to see you using a real interface.

Matrix games are no better in general (WiTP winning the prize) but check out HTTR and COTA and compare the number of mouseclicks you need to accomplish repetative, basic tasks to HOI.

(in reply to jvgfanatic)

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 6:59:04 PM

jvgfanatic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

quote:

ORIGINAL: jvgfanatic
Matrix's interfaces are pretty weak, while graphically nice they don't provide that extra layer of user interactivity that some of Paradox's games do. Paradox obviously employs someone who is schooled in cognitive sciences to help with the interfaces while Matrix buys into the "if it looks good, it must work good" mentality.

I like paradox games, but this statement had me laughing.

Try:
1) Assning a general you wish to promote to a division
2) Selecting multiple air units in a province occupied by ground units
3) Effectively organizing your armies during real time
4) Adding an attachment to a unit overseas

If you think that's the result of "expertise" then I'd love to see you using a real interface.

Matrix games are no better in general (WiTP winning the prize) but check out HTTR and COTA and compare the number of mouseclicks you need to accomplish repetative, basic tasks to HOI.

As I said, there are exceptions to every general statement, particularly with a company like Matrix which works with many different houses. HTTR and COTA are actually excellent examples of some pretty fine interface design (though I've only played HTTR and haven't looked at it in a while since my boxed copy was lost in a move and I have no backup).

Whenever I speak of at least HTTR I always bring up its truly exceptional points.

Oh, and please allow me to apologize for that "if it looks good it must work good" line. It was actually meant specifically for interface and does not represent the underlying awesomeness of a great game that might be present undereath that merely functional interface.

WITP is, of course, an inteface disaster (great game though :P)

As to your specific issues with HOI. Granted, it isn't perfect. In any game so large there are bound to be holes. I have to think, however, that Paradox (or the developers of HOI) at least gave it an "A" shot whereas another developer might have just slapped on a fancy 2D picture and called it good. Most strategy game interfaces are no more elaborate than an interactive Powerpoint presentation and it seems as if the designers spent more time aligning buttons than concentrating on usability (not that pixel pushing should be underrated or anything).

< Message edited by jvgfanatic -- 11/22/2006 7:10:20 PM >

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Post #: 16

RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 8:52:31 PM

TOCarroll

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Since the Matrix game I play the most is TAOW3........it is obvious I'm not in it for the graphics or interface.

If Paradox could learn something from Matrix---Make WW2 Strategy games turn based

, then I'd be very happy.

Trying to micro-manage more factors than there are digits on a calculator is tough, but with TAOW3 you at least get to pause for a smoke

. That being said, lots of folks love "real time", which IMHO should be reserved for shooters

. That being said HOI2 is a GREAT game, but I still like turn based better (or multiple pulse, a la Squad Leader).

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 10:24:20 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I can't speak for how many games "Paradox" actually encompasses, and anything built on EU is as far as I am concerned "one game, many different dresses".

But I do realise, Matrix Games publishes games, in a few cases they might even make them. Thus, I think commenting on the way the actual games are made, under the Matrix Games banner is a bit unwieldly.

Gary Grigsby's games for instance, are not the same as those from Panther Games, nor the SSG guys. They have their own unique qualities.

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/22/2006 11:03:59 PM

SurrenderMonkey

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As someone who has played wargames avidly since 1975, including A3R, WiF, WiE, Europa and all the various permutations of the same, I consider HOI2:DD to be the finest multiplayer experience in grand strategic gaming. Four guys on a LAN game of HOI2 beats everything, hands-down. Tabletop, I like WiF for its elegance. But all things considered, IMO, HOI2:DD is the top of the heap - especially with a full-fledged mod like CORE.

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 1:43:47 AM

Sarge

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 2:33:58 AM

Fred98

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SurrenderMonkey
with a full-fledged mod like CORE.

Please tell us about CORE

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 6:28:16 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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So Core makes the game work? Who made Core, the company?

Hmm does that say enough?

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 11:41:27 AM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll

Since the Matrix game I play the most is TAOW3........it is obvious I'm not in it for the graphics or interface.

If Paradox could learn something from Matrix---Make WW2 Strategy games turn based , then I'd be very happy.

Trying to micro-manage more factors than there are digits on a calculator is tough, but with TAOW3 you at least get to pause for a smoke. That being said, lots of folks love "real time", which IMHO should be reserved for shooters. That being said HOI2 is a GREAT game, but I still like turn based better (or multiple pulse, a la Squad Leader).

Oh but it is turnbased. There are 1 hour turns, only to save you the hassle of clicking that "next turn" button every 2-3 seconds, the computer does that for you. You can stop it at any time with your "pause" button on your keyboard and issue all the orders you like.

Pausable real-time i think they call it. Imho it's just an evolution of the turn based concept, and a good one at that.

Improves the flow of the game while keeping many of the good qualities of the turn based concept

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 11:44:59 AM

jvgfanatic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: String

quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll

Since the Matrix game I play the most is TAOW3........it is obvious I'm not in it for the graphics or interface.

If Paradox could learn something from Matrix---Make WW2 Strategy games turn based , then I'd be very happy.

Trying to micro-manage more factors than there are digits on a calculator is tough, but with TAOW3 you at least get to pause for a smoke. That being said, lots of folks love "real time", which IMHO should be reserved for shooters. That being said HOI2 is a GREAT game, but I still like turn based better (or multiple pulse, a la Squad Leader).

Oh but it is turnbased. There are 1 hour turns, only to save you the hassle of clicking that "next turn" button every 2-3 seconds, the computer does that for you. You can stop it at any time with your "pause" button on your keyboard and issue all the orders you like.

Pausable real-time i think they call it. Imho it's just an evolution of the turn based concept, and a good one at that.

Improves the flow of the game while keeping many of the good qualities of the turn based concept

I really can't stand RTS but I love pausable real-time. One of Highway to the Reich's (and COTA's) super-cool features is that.

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 4:35:58 PM

TOCarroll

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RE: JVGFANATIC: I pause HOI2 Against the AI, but internet play is hell, as you cant pause unless everyone agrees.

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 5:32:30 PM

SurrenderMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: SurrenderMonkey
with a full-fledged mod like CORE.

Please tell us about CORE

CORE is a mod that adds lots of detail and chrome. It is a group effort that usually takes a year or so to get finished. You can read more here: http://www.terranova.dk/

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Post #: 26

RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 5:34:00 PM

SurrenderMonkey

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

So Core makes the game work? Who made Core, the company?

Hmm does that say enough?

Hardly.

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Post #: 27

RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 5:35:14 PM

JudgeDredd

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Well, as I already mentioned, HoI2 DD is fantastic, engrossing and in depth. Not historically accurate withe regards to outcomes...but what would the point be of playing a game where the outcome was historical? I mean...if you play as the Germans...you're going to lose.

Besides...you can play any nation in HoI2....

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RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 5:58:27 PM

charlieart66

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seems i missed quite alot.
what i was trying to suggest was a game that had the grand stratergy of HOI with ecomeny, building units researching, but with the land battle being able to be played out in a Close combat style.
a big project i know.

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Post #: 29

RE: Hearts of iron - 11/23/2006 7:22:31 PM

Sarge

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Tactical combat will always be abstract in grand strategic games.

Can you imagine trying to play out WWII division by division, company by company on a tactical level. Each turn would take a month with the AI turn lasting 24-48 hours to resolve.

HOI2 may indeed be a fun title, but the fact is, HOI was a complete joke and unplayable out of box. The war gamming community is very small and unforgiving (see: GI Combat), the whole HOI pay to beta has left a bad taste in a large percentage of the communities mouth .

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