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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt?

 
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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 4:38:50 PM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		m10bob,

I disagree.  It should make no difference who the poster is or how much "seniority" he has.  If a poster is posting something just to pass the time of day or just to see his words in print or just to relieve his own personal boredom, then he should be called on it no matter who he is.



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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 4:42:57 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

m10bob,

I disagree. It should make no difference who the poster is or how much "seniority" he has. If a poster is posting something just to pass the time of day or just to see his words in print or just to relieve his own personal boredom, then he should be called on it no matter who he is.



Are you saying thats what I was doing??


< Message edited by Alby -- 11/24/2006 5:58:23 PM >

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 8:20:47 PM   
Riun T

 

Posts: 1848
Joined: 7/31/2004
Status: offline 		I got a question on this: what factors are required to have this game not combine the fire control radio communications with the command COMM,cause in reality they were always seperate channels and frequencies, with HQ command having president but not overall radio comm with all lesser ranked and dispersed units in the field. Arrty units had their channel, tanks command units sometimes would be dual equiped with both UHF,and VHF sets but budding into some other branches radio frequencies without call signs and pre-codes for the days traffic, u might never get relayed or transfered with your "out of branch,out of command priority," message in time to do anything,,,,,, so quite gripping about Arrty delay responce times and enjoy working around its faulty aspects and be happy that the game gives u any artty besides preassigned targets!!!! come on guys the games turn is only 3 minutes,,, if u think u could breach "COMMANDCOMM, or ARRTY plot for real in that time frame,,, YOUR DREAMING!!

(in reply to Alby)
Post #: 33
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 8:26:13 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine

Shouldn't apologize for voicing your opinion. I have a feeling those who might disagree with it still respect it.


Nobody takes exception to Glenn's opinion. He is a respected member of the forum.
The exception I take is when I feel somebody has been condescending (sp?)to other respected (and productive) forum members.
If we had a new member here posting silliness, that might be something to call quarter on, but long time members as involved as (say, Alby), should not be (IMHO) responded to like one of the newer members, needing censure, or guidance............
Just a matter of wording...that's all................



I was just pointing out that rational opinions are a very personal thing and can be neither right or wrong. That being the case, I see no point in apologizing for it. If someone has a different opinion than I do, I respect that opinion as being personal to that person, even though I know it's WRONG since it's not my opinion

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Post #: 34
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 8:32:38 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Riun T

I got a question on this: what factors are required to have this game not combine the fire control radio communications with the command COMM,cause in reality they were always seperate channels and frequencies, with HQ command having president but not overall radio comm with all lesser ranked and dispersed units in the field. Arrty units had their channel, tanks command units sometimes would be dual equiped with both UHF,and VHF sets but budding into some other branches radio frequencies without call signs and pre-codes for the days traffic, u might never get relayed or transfered with your "out of branch,out of command priority," message in time to do anything,,,,,, so quite gripping about Arrty delay responce times and enjoy working around its faulty aspects and be happy that the game gives u any artty besides preassigned targets!!!! come on guys the games turn is only 3 minutes,,, if u think u could breach "COMMANDCOMM, or ARRTY plot for real in that time frame,,, YOUR DREAMING!!


This is true. Short of calling for Immediate Suppression on a target, if it actually hits the target, there typically are spotting rounds that are called in and adjusted. This all takes time before the FFE is called. Anything hitting in the less than 1.0 seems very fast.

(in reply to Riun T)
Post #: 35
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 9:08:04 PM   
h_h_lightcap


Posts: 113
Joined: 2/17/2004
From: Eureka, CA
Status: offline 		IMHO-----The gAME SHOULD ALLOW for many more preplotted target hexes---maybe one to two per company and the default amount. The arty delay should be upped a bit .1 seems silly except in the preplotted hex, with the understanding that the Americans and British shoul have the lowest response delay BY FAR.

Because some iof this discussion smacks of the same old German-centric thinking----"there is no way the Americans should have beaten the germans.....shermans sucked and tigers rule....Blah Blah Blah" Battle of the Bulge anyone???? TO be accurate all meeting engagements and American advances/assaults from 1944 and later should have 4-1 or greater American pts and JABOS flying around in good weather.


ALBY----IN SUMMARY: MANY MORE PRE-PLOTS, more arty delay -----Thanks for bringing it up and thanks for ENHANCED!!!



REMEMBERING THE ALAMO---HH

< Message edited by h_h_lightcap -- 11/24/2006 9:16:15 PM >

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 9:11:56 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Timeout called:

Ok, guys, thanks, but let's not get sidetracked.  Alby and I are good friends, so we tend to pick on each other from time to time. 

Alright, let's play ball!

PS to hh lightcap -- I love that Vonnegut quote. What book is that from?

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/24/2006 9:16:50 PM >

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 9:24:20 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		For RE Romine, are you referring to onboard mortars or offboard arty for that 1.0 delay?   I keep my 60s right behind the front line, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to get fire put down within less than a minute of the request. 

As I've said, I'm spoiled by that 0.1-0.2 response time, and, yes, I'm more than a little prejudiced in favor of  the Americans.  I've made that obvious.  However, the game was programmed that way long BEFORE I came aboard.  My personal influence was simply in TOE layouts, that's all. See my thread on "Personal Agendas." My mission statement is there.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/24/2006 9:35:46 PM >

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 9:50:09 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

For RE Romine, are you referring to onboard mortars or offboard arty for that 1.0 delay?   I keep my 60s right behind the front line, so it doesn't seem unreasonable to get fire put down within less than a minute of the request. 

As I've said, I'm spoiled by that 0.1-0.2 response time, and, yes, I'm more than a little prejudiced in favor of  the Americans.  I've made that obvious.  However, the game was programmed that way long BEFORE I came aboard.  My personal influence was simply in TOE layouts, that's all.


Funny that you brought up the mortars because I've been thinking about those. The short distance to the target would cut into the travel time of the round, but the problem I have is these move mortars move. If you don't know with some degree of accuracy where you are, it's difficult to put rounds on target quickly. The jungle throws in even more complexity. Firing unit doesn't know exactly where they are and it makes hitting the target difficult. Small spotting rounds might be difficult to identify and adjust with other explosions going off. These, I would be inclined to believe are less than 1.0, but certainly not .1 or .2.

In general, I don't like the concept of artillery being able to move and then fire indirectly the next turn. There is a lot of set-up that has to occur before this happens, including the location determination previously mentioned. While not positive, I think the Hip Shoot is a more modern practice.

< Message edited by RERomine -- 11/24/2006 9:54:46 PM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)
Post #: 39
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 10:19:31 PM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		The late Gene Sledge was a 60mm mortarman, and in "With the Old Breed" he mentions that during fire exercises the instructor had a stopwatch, and the competition was to see which mortar team could set up and lay fire the quickest.  Unfortunately, Mr. Sledge didn't give actual timings.   

The implication, though, was that it became a matter of seconds, not minutes, in setting up and delivering accurate fire.   

(in reply to RERomine)
Post #: 40
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 10:29:50 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: h_h_lightcap

IMHO-----The gAME SHOULD ALLOW for many more preplotted target hexes---maybe one to two per company and the default amount. The arty delay should be upped a bit .1 seems silly except in the preplotted hex, with the understanding that the Americans and British shoul have the lowest response delay BY FAR.

Because some iof this discussion smacks of the same old German-centric thinking----"there is no way the Americans should have beaten the germans.....shermans sucked and tigers rule....Blah Blah Blah" Battle of the Bulge anyone???? TO be accurate all meeting engagements and American advances/assaults from 1944 and later should have 4-1 or greater American pts and JABOS flying around in good weather.


ALBY----IN SUMMARY: MANY MORE PRE-PLOTS, more arty delay -----Thanks for bringing it up and thanks for ENHANCED!!!



REMEMBERING THE ALAMO---HH

One of my main reason for bringing this up is some players have 'defected' over to the other camp with the artillery routine as one of the reasons mainly the .01 and 02 delays without using pre plotted hexes....so was just seeing how many really don't like it...as you can see, no one seems to like the .01 delay even when they have it for use themselves (other than Gunny...LOL)

Oh ya almost forgot....
number of Preplots can be increased or decreased depending on map size, amount of points, and mission.

In previous versions of the game onboard mortar formations for instance could be given a special flag for "dedicated fast response artillery" which made them faster and more accurate, but I swear we discussed this with Mike Wood and at some point (version) the code was changed so that all on board arty receives this bonus regardless of special flag...(I believe Rockets are an exception.)
Now I am pretty sure that is what he said, but maybe I have misunderstood or forgotten in the past year.

< Message edited by Alby -- 11/25/2006 2:14:03 AM >

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/24/2006 10:41:25 PM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

The late Gene Sledge was a 60mm mortarman, and in "With the Old Breed" he mentions that during fire exercises the instructor had a stopwatch, and the competition was to see which mortar team could set up and lay fire the quickest.  Unfortunately, Mr. Sledge didn't give actual timings.   

The implication, though, was that it became a matter of seconds, not minutes, in setting up and delivering accurate fire.   


I guess the question would be under what circumstances was the exercise. Line of sight or not, mortars are high tragectory weapons so it comes out as an indirect fire exercise. With direct line of sight, none of that position stuff matters because they can adjust their own fire. Under those circumstances, I would expect it to be fast. A training exercise also doesn't have the extra combat distractions going on. When we ran training exercises calling in artillery, we were the only ones call it in and there was no other combat activity going on. They were also 105mm rounds so there was no losing one of those

I might be over estimating the amount of confusion created by other combat. A mortar round, even a small one won't be lost to small arms fire. It really is a case by case basis sort of thing. If the forward observer doesn't see the spotting round, he can't really adjust other than to assume the range probably needs dropped. It might have also been a dud. Wouldn't be good to drop the range if you aren't sure.

< Message edited by RERomine -- 11/24/2006 10:46:40 PM >

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Post #: 42
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 2:03:04 AM   
vahauser


Posts: 1644
Joined: 10/1/2002
From: Texas
Status: offline 		I personally believe that artillery response times are largely a non-issue when discussing single-player games against the computer.

When playing against the computer, then the human player can customize his game and the way he wants artillery to be employed in just about a zillion different ways to suit his own personal preferences.

When playing against the computer, I don't play like any other player I know.  I suspect most players are that way.  Indeed, one of the main (if not THE main) reasons for playing SPWAW as single player against the computer is to be able to customize the game however you want to without having to argue with anybody about it. 

So, given that perspective artillery response times in single-player games are mostly a non-issue.

Further, I also believe that no matter what artillery response times are provided by the game, it is impossible to "get them right".  Impossible.  It is impossible to provide "historically accurate" artillery response times to a game system where the time per turn is variable (nobody knows how long each SPWAW turn is).  Impossible.  It is also impossible to provide "historically accurate" artillery response times where you have airpower and off-map and on-map and command/control all using the same mechanics.  Impossible.

The current "best guesses" (as provided by SPWAW) are the result of years of trial and error and refinement.  It doesn't really matter that these best guesses are "broken" because there is no way to "fix" what is broken.  Impossible.  And any attempts to "fix" what is broken will be broken too.  I, personally, have no desire to see one "broken" system replaced by another "broken" system just to give somebody something to do.  Waste of time.  More than a waste of time, to me it is just meddling with the system with no honest payoff that will make the game better.  All it will do is make the game DIFFERENT, not better.  I'm tired of people meddling with the game just because they can. 

The current artillery system is likely not as broken as any attempts to "fix" it would be.  I say leave it alone until Mike Wood can personally address the system and determine for a fact that it can be improved and not changed just for the sake of change.

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 2:11:39 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Well, vahauser, that's what I wanted to say in the first place.   Thank you. 

However, even with the real and perceived flaws, it's a damn good game. Enough of this bickering. It's time to mount up and move out. See you on the battlefield.

"Get off your asses, Marines. We're moving out! The front line is to the left. Let's go!"

Photo: Marines at Guadalcanal, 1942




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< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/25/2006 2:46:13 AM >

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 2:37:17 AM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline 		Quite right. Response times aren't really a problem. I adapt to whatever it happens to be.

Now it wouldn't hurt my feelings it the adjust fire problem gets corrected. For those not familar with what I'm talking about, when you try to adjust your fire from a previously targeted hex, range to the new target hex is calculated from the FO instead of the firing unit. I keep my FOs away from the LD, with mortars closer, so it in effect, reduces the range of my mortars.

(in reply to vahauser)
Post #: 45
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 2:53:26 AM   
h_h_lightcap


Posts: 113
Joined: 2/17/2004
From: Eureka, CA
Status: offline 		ALBY----


Yes the Preplots can be more or less BUT there are not enough---ESPECIALLY for defends where the units may have been in place for more than a day or so---i.e. Stalingrad etc-----Anyway I dont mind the system the way it is now. as along as the GERMAN lovers among us dont start whining about how its not fair ---That is the American advantage --arty.

BTW---I love playing as the Germans.


STILL REMEMBERING THE ALAMO---HH

_____________________________

"My soul knows my meat is doing bad things, and is embarrassed. But my meat just keeps right on doing bad, dumb things." ----Kurt Vonnegut

(in reply to Alby)
Post #: 46
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 3:30:51 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: h_h_lightcap


STILL REMEMBERING THE ALAMO---HH







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< Message edited by Alby -- 11/25/2006 3:35:13 AM >

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 4:00:45 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
Joined: 7/25/2000
From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Lemme tell ya, if Travis had had a company of US Marines led by THIS guy, it would've been a different story : "Let's get those stinkin' Mexicans off our property!"








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< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/25/2006 4:14:46 AM >

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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 4:46:23 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Lemme tell ya, if Travis had had a company of US Marines led by THIS guy, it would've been a different story : "Let's get those stinkin' Mexicans off our property!"









Oh boy this thread is going to hell now!!
LOL





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RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 5:14:45 AM   
RERomine

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 7/19/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

Oh boy this thread is going to hell now!!
LOL



I'll tie it all together.

Just imagine how well they would have done in the Alamo with some four deuces with fast response times

(in reply to Alby)
Post #: 50
RE: Arty response times, who likes them, who doesnt? - 11/25/2006 5:40:50 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RERomine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

Oh boy this thread is going to hell now!!
LOL



I'll tie it all together.

Just imagine how well they would have done in the Alamo with some four deuces with fast response times


DEDICATED FAST RESPONSE>>>LOL




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