Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Control, in the abstract, is more difficult.

"A home country consists of every hex that a MAR could reach from the capital of that home country without crossing a red political boundary or entering a hex containing the name of another major power."

This is going to have to be defined differently for MWiF: the change of scale makes it no longer true. For example, a MAR setting off from Batavia cannot walk to Dutch Borneo except via the Celebes and the Philippines, which would involve crossing a red political border.

I suggest we cut the Ghordian Knot. This is a computer game. Keep the existing font for home countries and have a new distinct one (perhaps a Brush script?) for territories. Allow the player to toggle a display showing all the relevant borders, with dashed red lines connecting overseas parts of territories, with the type of font revealing their status. Give up trying to define home countries and territories in words.

(A lot of the problem is the use of the phrase 'home country', which to me always means the player's home country, i.e. major power. Reading that the NEI is a home country makes me go "Whaaa....?")

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

I still think you are looking at the islands a bit wrong, recall this sentence:

"You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in."

Which means that to conquer the Caroline, you need to conquer Truk & Ponape.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

I still think you are looking at the islands a bit wrong, recall this sentence:

"You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in."

Which means that to conquer the Caroline, you need to conquer Truk & Ponape.

Ah, I see the ambiguity. Patrice's interpretation is as if the sentence were written "You also conquer a territory if you control every port and coastal city in that territory in every sea area the territory has a coastal hex in"

As written it does imply that if a territory has a single coastal hex in a particular sea-area, then you need to control all that sea-area's ports and cities, however far-flung (and including those outside the territory).

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

We had talked about using dashed lines in the Pacific to indicate territorial borders, but that is non-trivial to implement. While certainly helpful, I am not sure that doing so is crucial for game play.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

We had talked about using dashed lines in the Pacific to indicate territorial borders, but that is non-trivial to implement. While certainly helpful, I am not sure that doing so is crucial for game play.

I would vote for this as being essential, especially for newbies. It is not a question of merely flagging up actual control after the event (which of course is already programmed), but appreciating which remote islands will fall to you or your opponent by default if a critical port is taken in the future.

Even knowing the layout of the Pacific very well, I find myself forgetting the exact borders of the many island groups, especially since so many of them are elongated and lie parallel to others. Thus, looking at the display at Post 72 in the 'MWiF Map Review - Pacific Islands', I can see straight away that if I, as the Allies, recapture Tarawa, I will immediately get Makin and Ocean too if my opponent has not garrisoned them.

Take a look at Post 183 in that same Pacific Islands thread. It makes the complex web of territories crystal clear with a single toggling keystroke. I would never have guessed that who controls Suva also controls the two-front Rotuma (if not garrisoned), nor that Wallis & Fortuna is linked to control of Tonga. Nor that that islet north of Pago Pago belongs to American Samoa.

And Post 188 not only reveals the gargantuan size of French Polynesia, but also warns the Japanese player in a couple of quick glances that capture of Tahiti is not going to bring him any more real estate until he also captures the wildly distant outposts of Maria and Mangareva.

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ORIGINAL: Norman42


Is it possible to show on cursor hover or some similar method what specific territory or home country a hex belongs to?

I too find the control and conquest rules ambiguous, and also with the scale change on the Pac Map, Harry's definition will not even be accurate anymore, since the places an infantry or marine can walk are different at WiF and MWiF scales.

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ORIGINAL: Norman42

So with the conquest of Nukualofa (the Tonga port) you would gain conquest of all these islands labelled (Tonga)?

And in the case of Solomon's Islands, with the conquest of Guadalcanal port you would conquest all of the Solomons? Including San Cristobal and other isles not connected via hexside to Guadalcanal?

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ORIGINAL: Norman42
And in the case of Solomon's Islands, with the conquest of Guadalcanal port you would conquest all of the Solomons? Including San Cristobal and other isles not connected via hexside to Guadalcanal?

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

On the Pacific Map, Except for Australia and New Zealand who are CW Major Powers, there is no CW area that is not a Territory. Papua, New Britain, New Ireland, the Solomons, the Gilberts, etc... all are territories.

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ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf

The Netherlands East Indies is a minor country consisting of all the 1939 NEI-controlled hexes in the Bay of Bengal, Bismark Sea, East Indian Ocean, South China Sea and Timor Sea. Its capital is Batavia.

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

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ORIGINAL: Froonp
On the Pacific Map, Except for Australia and New Zealand who are CW Major Powers, there is no CW area that is not a Territory. Papua, New Britain, New Ireland, the Solomons, the Gilberts, etc... all are territories.

The way we've always played is a bit different. The only "Territory" (capital-T, conquerable in certain ways) that exist are the ones with a controlling major power designated in parentheses after the name.

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Here is another question - if you conquer a country, any "Territory" it controls that doesn't contain any units from either side goes neutral, Iceland being a standard example. The NEI in WiF FE is a complete country I believe, with every hex touching another one and reachable by a MAR starting in Batavia. Same for the Phillipines I believe. Now that this is no longer the case, this Gordian problem needs to be solved as Marcus suggested. The myriad islands not reachable by MARines should remain part of the NEI with control determined at Batavia, on initial conquest at least. Writing Island-name-here (NEI) on an island not connected to the rest could imply to players of WiF FE that these are now Territories.

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ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

New Ireland problem (continued)
 
Continued from Post 85.

Ignoring PatiF, the US has four MAR corps (and two MAR DIVs), which means that to maintain the counterattack potential against Rabaul established in WiF FE, we need to provide a minimum of two hexes from which the MAR can attack Rabaul across all-sea hexsides (in support of a conventional land-attack from the southwest).

That is to say, while in WiF FE, US Marines had the choice of four hexes from which to attack Rabaul (South New Ireland, Bougainville, Woodlark. Goodenough - see Post 51), two of those are superfluous given the few MAR available to the US.

We can maintain the play-balance of WiF FE by twisting New Ireland so that it occupies four hexes in a straight line, starting at Kavieng and heading SE.

As for the offshore islands, it is probably sufficient to shift only Lihir (one hex SW) ... though it would be aesthetic to twist Bougainville and Buka a little in their hexes so they point more towards the new position of New Ireland.

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

Is Reykjavik currently a city? First it is a city, then it is no city, then it is? I forget. Is Sardinia written "Sardinia (It)" ? I think so.

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OK, so in WiF FE, how do you conquer Nauru without putting a land unit on it? (If Nauru has a port, I forget right now, let's use the island 'Ocean' for example, or any single hex island inside the Solomons zone).

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You are saying it is part of an unnamed Territory, let's say the "Solomon Islands" Territory. But where does that Territory end? The hexes of the New Hebrides around Espiritu Santu would be part of it, for example, as would all of the hexes on the border of the Solomons zone. So to conquer the whole "Solomon Islands" Territory you need to control ports in a whole bunch of places in about 4-5 sea zones, because the hexes on the zone borders would be part of that Territory. How do you get the hex between Palau and Yap? Just by taking those two ports, without Truk or the other ports on the Bismarck?

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So how do you decide which Territory a WiF FE hex is a part of? What about the all important hexes on zone boundaries?

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The way we play, to get the single hexes in the Solomons, you need Truk, Ponape, Guadalcanal, Espiritu Santu, Tarawa, and Nukufetau, and I'm possibly forgetting one more. (Kanton?) Once you have all of those ports, you conquer all of the single hexes inside the Solomons zone from the CW, but not the hexes on the border, unless you control all the ports in the other sea zone too. This is because we treat each hex not defined as part of a Territory by the 'home country definition' rule as it's own separate Territory. Am I really the only person to play this way? I still don't think so.

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All I'm saying is you should include something that highlights this in the documentation - "Each hex is now part of a defined Territory (a group of hexes without a capitol) or a minor country (which has a definite capitol) which can be conquered separately. The (Te) is designated in parentheses for any hex that is not clearly inside that Territory. Territories without ports can still be conquered by controlling every port in every sea zone touching a hex in that Territory." It's probably better to have them all part of a defined group, will clear up confusion I think, but we've never tried doing it that way.

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As for keeping the MWiF map the same, that logic seems to be applied quite subjectively in this process. In other areas unrealistic changes are made 'to keep it the same as WiF FE'.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

Nauru is a Territory controlled by the CW. It is a single hex Territory. It has no port.

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Well, you conquer the Solomons by conquering Guadalcanal, as it is the only port in the Solomons. The hexes between Palau & Yap are part of the Palau islands, so you get it by controlling all Palau's ports.

I know it by Geographic knowledge.

What you describe has no support in the rule. I wonder how you come up with that. It is as saying that if controlling France and the Netherlands, then you controll Belgium.

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ORIGINAL: brian brian
Geographic knowledge is a great way to solve questions in WiF. Unfortunately without printed boundaries, you can't do that playing WiF with a bunch of wargamers. One player's geographic knowledge will differ from another's. This is why we've always played as if only (MP) territories are political units, and elsewhere it is a hex at a time. Otherwise, how can you tell where the Fiji Islands end and the Ellice Islands start? What territory includes the unnamed island at the junction of the Solomons/Hawaiian Islands/Polynesia zone? If the Japanese want that hex they have to take it with units, otherwise it would require controlling Samoa, Pearl, and Truk (and many other ports) simultaneously. I don't know which territory it is in now, but without using units probably a single port determines it's fate now, quite different. I don't think assigning hexes to near-by labels on the map, although a smart and convenient way to do it, has any basis in the current rules.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp
In MWiF, the map has each hex belonging to a Territory, a Major Power or a Minor Country already, no ambiguity.

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ORIGINAL: brian brian

I think this new way to do it is an improvement. But if you don't think about it in advance, things work a bit differently now. So what Territory does include that three zone island?

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ORIGINAL: Norman42
I do have a question with regards to the Hawaiian Islands. What isles are all considered part of this 'territory'? Is Midway included? Does conquest of Oahu(and Midway if Hawaiian) auto conquer the entire chain of islands?

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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ORIGINAL: Norman42
I do have a question with regards to the Hawaiian Islands. What isles are all considered part of this 'territory'? Is Midway included? Does conquest of Oahu(and Midway if Hawaiian) auto conquer the entire chain of islands?

Midway is part of the Hawaiian islands.
Conquering Midway and Honolulu gives you all the chain.
I noticed that there is a "Midway Islands" Territory in the data files of the map (CGA file, entry #198), but it is not used in the game. Maybe it is here from an earlier incarnation of the map, I don't know.