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Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific

 
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Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 2:10:56 AM   
Zorfwaddle

 

Posts: 263
Joined: 3/16/2001
From: Pensacola, FL
Status: offline 		Bubblehead over at his blog had a question about Sub vs Sub in the Pac.

http://bubbleheads.blogspot.com/2006/11/submerged-submarine-sinkings.html

I read the thread on sub vs sub, but saw no mention of a submerged action resulting in the loss of a boat. Can one of you illustrious people elaborate on this question?

Go Batfish!

George

_____________________________

"AK-47. When you absolutely, positively got to kill every m****rf****r in the room. Accept no substitutes." Ordell Robbie - "Jackie Brown"
Post #: 1
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 2:28:20 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I forget which boat is was, but a US sub was credited with sinking a Japanese sub in December 1941. It was a fluke event though. The US sub blundered upon the Japanese sub on the surface and when the IJN sub saw the US sub they crash dived. It appears they dived with the hatches open because the sub was never heard from again.

I believe there were some other sub to sub skirmishes, but they were rare.

Bill

(in reply to Zorfwaddle)
Post #: 2
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 7:13:53 AM   
seydlitz_slith


Posts: 2036
Joined: 6/16/2002
From: Danville, IL
Status: offline 		Here is a list of US Subs that sunk other subs. Source is UNITED STATES SUBMARINE OPERATIONS IN WORLD WAR 2 by Theodore Roscoe. Naval Institute Press, 1955, 577 pages. This book, and it's companion UNITED STATES DESTROYER OPERATIONS IN WORLD WAR 2 are both still available from the Naval Institute. If you are "into" this subject, these are must have books. The Sub book even has full color fold out maps throughout charting all sinkings by month. I believe they have one map for every three months in the appropriate sections of the book. You can really see how the course of the war flowed. Lots of pictures and lithographs in the book also, some only seen there. In fact, These books are better source books than Clair Blair's Undersea Victory, being written to document the submarine war in the Pacific, and also the "destroyer" war in that book. Both are well worth the money.

Aspro sank I-43 on 15 Feb 1944
Batfish sank I-41 on 9 Feb 1945, sank RO-112 on 11 Feb 1945, sank RO-113 on 12 Feb 1945
Bluejack sank I-351 on 14 Jul 1945
Grayback sank I-18 on 2 Jan 1943
Gudgeon sank I-173 on 27 Jan 1942
Lagarto sank RO-49 on 24 Feb 1945
Pogy sank I-183 on 28 Apr 1944
Sawfish sank I-29 on 26 Jul 1944
Scabbardfish sank I-365 on 28 Nov 1944
Scamp sank I-24 on 27 Jul 1943
Sea Devil sank RO-42 on 15 Sep 1944
Sea Owl sank RO-56 on 17 Apr 1945
Seadragon sank I-4 on 20 Dec 1942
Seahorse sank RO-45 on 20 Apr 1944
Skate sank I-122 on 10 Jun 1945
Spikefish sank I-373 on 13 Aug 1945
Tautog sank RO-30 on 26 Apr 1942, I-28 on 17 May 1942
Triton sank I-164 on 17 May 1942
Trout sank I-182 on 9 Sep 1943
Tunny sank I-42 on 23 May 1944

So, in total, 23 subs were sunk by our subs.
You can't match this feat in WITP. Subs can not attack subs at all...ever. All subs have an ASW value of 0.



(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 3
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 7:59:23 AM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline 		British subs had some action too, even sinking a Penang U-Boot if Im not wrong. But still all these actions occurred in surface (while the target was in surface at least), and most probably with torpedoes... 

(in reply to seydlitz_slith)
Post #: 4
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 10:52:09 AM   
Tiornu

 

Posts: 1126
Joined: 4/1/2004
Status: offline 		For those interested in a submerged sub sinking another submerged sub, it happened one time during the war: HMS Venturer sank U 864.

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 5
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 1:35:01 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		One of the problems with sub to sub combat in WitP is that subs seem to always in an undefined state as far as surfaced or submerged. When escorts attack subs, they are always treated as submerged, even if badly damaged. Many badly damaged subs were sunk because their ability to submerge was compromised. They then became sitting ducks for the escorts. They only seem to surface to shell the occasional merchant ship and maybe get spotted by an aircraft. Otherwise they seem to always be submerged.

Bill

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 6
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 2:28:18 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

One of the problems with sub to sub combat in WitP is that subs seem to always in an undefined state as far as surfaced or submerged. When escorts attack subs, they are always treated as submerged, even if badly damaged. Many badly damaged subs were sunk because their ability to submerge was compromised. They then became sitting ducks for the escorts. They only seem to surface to shell the occasional merchant ship and maybe get spotted by an aircraft. Otherwise they seem to always be submerged.

Bill


That´s not always true. Sometimes they get attacked by DDs when still surfaced. I even had it once that a sub of mine was torpedoed by a DD while it was on the surface.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 7
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 2:43:41 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

That´s not always true. Sometimes they get attacked by DDs when still surfaced. I even had it once that a sub of mine was torpedoed by a DD while it was on the surface.



I guess I'm wrong then. I've never seen that happen though. I've also heard about isolated Japanese doing a banzai charge. I've never seen that either.

Bill

(in reply to castor troy)
Post #: 8
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 5:27:23 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

That´s not always true. Sometimes they get attacked by DDs when still surfaced. I even had it once that a sub of mine was torpedoed by a DD while it was on the surface.



I guess I'm wrong then. I've never seen that happen though. I've also heard about isolated Japanese doing a banzai charge. I've never seen that either.

Bill


It not happens often!

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 9
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 11/30/2006 8:37:05 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I forget which boat is was, but a US sub was credited with sinking a Japanese sub in December 1941. It was a fluke event though. The US sub blundered upon the Japanese sub on the surface and when the IJN sub saw the US sub they crash dived. It appears they dived with the hatches open because the sub was never heard from again.

I believe there were some other sub to sub skirmishes, but they were rare.

Bill


i've done a bunch of reading on IJN sub losses, and i think this might have been a story that didn't hold up under closer examination. First confirmed IJN sub loss to a USN sub was 27 Jan 1942 (I-73 by Gudgeon).

There was a boat credited to a USN boat firing from the surface sinking an I-boat or Ro-class boat, but that also didn't hold up under examination. (variously credited as I-23 or Ro-30, on 26 April 1942). However, i think USS Tautog is still "officially" credited with the kill. Ro-30 was stricken from IJN roster April 1 (and apparently scrapped in Aug 1945), and contact with I-23 was lost 14 Feb 1942. What (if anything) Tautog hit is unknown.

Only one submerged sub vs. submerged sub sinking was confirmed during the war - a British boat sinking a U-boat after spotting its periscope (HMS Venturer vs. U-864 on Feb 9, 1945).

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 11/30/2006 8:50:32 PM >

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 10
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 12/1/2006 12:29:38 AM   
The Duke

 

Posts: 94
Joined: 3/1/2005
From: Austin, TX
Status: offline 		Batfish sunk all three Japanese subs on the same war patrol!

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 11
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 12/1/2006 1:20:15 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

British subs had some action too, even sinking a Penang U-Boot if Im not wrong. But still all these actions occurred in surface (while the target was in surface at least), and most probably with torpedoes...


Yes, even the Dutch got in on the act with a boat operating out of Freemantle :

" The most successful Dutch submarine to operate out of Fremantle was the Zwaardvisch (Swordfish). Built for the Royal Navy as the “T” Class HMS Talent, it was transferred to the RNN in 1943, and began operations in Australian waters from September 1944. A large number of Japanese transports and several minelayers were attacked and sunk, but the highlight of Zwaardvisch’s operational career was undoubtedly the sinking of the German U-boat U-168. The German submarine was on her its to Surabaya to join the small German flotilla there when it was sighted in the early morning of 6 October 1944. Six torpedoes were fired by Zwaardvisch, and U-168 sank, with the loss of 23 lives."

A lot of these kills (including the Zvaardvisch's kill, iirc) came from accurate Magic and Ultra intercepts, which are really not present in the game (closest i've come is "I-63 is moving to ." - with the location it is moving to NEVER given...

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 12/1/2006 1:25:04 AM >

(in reply to Fishbed)
Post #: 12
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 12/1/2006 1:40:52 AM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
Joined: 5/31/2006
From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

A lot of these kills (including the Zvaardvisch's kill, iirc) came from accurate Magic and Ultra intercepts, which are really not present in the game (closest i've come is "I-63 is moving to ." - with the location it is moving to NEVER given...

You're ignoring all "radio transmission detected" messages? They indicate enemy presence in that hex - sometimes an enemy sub reporting a sighting back home, sometimes an enemy convoy or combat TF. These reports helped me nail an I-boat between Pearl Harbor and the West Coast, and gave an invasion of Midway away (Hi Gary! ).

< Message edited by VSWG -- 12/1/2006 1:48:51 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 13
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 12/1/2006 3:24:13 AM   
ctangus


Posts: 2153
Joined: 10/13/2005
From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

A lot of these kills (including the Zvaardvisch's kill, iirc) came from accurate Magic and Ultra intercepts, which are really not present in the game (closest i've come is "I-63 is moving to ." - with the location it is moving to NEVER given...

You're ignoring all "radio transmission detected" messages? They indicate enemy presence in that hex - sometimes an enemy sub reporting a sighting back home, sometimes an enemy convoy or combat TF. These reports helped me nail an I-boat between Pearl Harbor and the West Coast, and gave an invasion of Midway away (Hi Gary! ).


In my AAR game (mid-June '42) I've sunk at least 6 Japanese subs, probably more, with help from Sigint. Getting a little off topic - in the same game Sigint gave me a good idea of the Japanese OOB in China & helped me take Nanchang very easily without exposing my flanks too much. In another game it was crucial in me stopping an India invasion on the beaches.

Considering the historical success of Magic, I do think more reports of "AK Something Maru is moving to 666,666" are appropriate but allied sigint still can be quite useful.

< Message edited by ctangus -- 12/1/2006 3:27:28 AM >

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 14
RE: Nearly OT: Sub VS Sub in the Pacific - 12/1/2006 3:49:25 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: VSWG

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

A lot of these kills (including the Zvaardvisch's kill, iirc) came from accurate Magic and Ultra intercepts, which are really not present in the game (closest i've come is "I-63 is moving to ." - with the location it is moving to NEVER given...

You're ignoring all "radio transmission detected" messages? They indicate enemy presence in that hex - sometimes an enemy sub reporting a sighting back home, sometimes an enemy convoy or combat TF. These reports helped me nail an I-boat between Pearl Harbor and the West Coast, and gave an invasion of Midway away (Hi Gary! ).


No, i don't ignore them, but that would be more in the way of radio location "tip" than of a MAGIC intercept... i've harassed and sunk enemy subs that way, but mostly i've already been tipped off to their presence by other means.

IF i knew where a sub (or any other ship) was going ahead of time, i would ready a surprise party for them... but i've always gotten the blank at the end of the message ... This doesn't seem to be universal to all players, but i think more people get the blank than the actual location message.

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 15
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