tabpub
Posts: 1019
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: The Greater Chicagoland Area
Status: offline
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quote:
Lots of reasons why the numbers of sinkings are lower than historical.
Really, you should know better than to bring up this old complaint. The IJ knows the score from the get go and will do every feasible thing to cut down on the sub campaign.
You know that, I know that...hell I think that my cat knows that....
If someone was sinking shipping at a higher rate than in the war, I would have to say look to the IJ player for the reason; the whole purpose of starting this was to start some discussion on what the optimal methodology was for the Allied sub war.
quote:
First and foremost, the current logistics model does not require the players to run as many convoys to support economies or campaigns...there is simply too much supply about. Even the most staunch advocates of the current logistics model who say there is no over abundance of supply park something like 200 AKs in Port Arthur for the entire game as Japan in recognition of no civilian economic demand for merchant shipping. With less convoys, there are fewer contacts. This is exascerbated by the fact that players generally leave their poor sub sailors in their stinking subs basically 100% of the time (exceptions...damage repair and odd refit) yet the number of sinking remains minimal due to less traffic.
Granted on the supply issue to some extent, but I don't think that local supply generated off resources is sufficient to maintain militarily significant garrisons in the PI, PNG or any island base. Shipping of supplies would still be needed at some point, either as they are used up or bombed/shelled to destruction.
As to minimal sinkings, I don't feel that is the case, with 284 confirmed sunk in Oct '43.
quote:
Secondly, the sub combat model allows only 1 shot by the sub vs one target, whereas IRL subs regularly targetted multiple ships simultaneously and fired defensively vs ASW escorts when attacked. There is no pursuit mechanism either (I don't for a minute believe that AI run subs actually "pursue" enemy contacts and refuse to let the AI control subs because, as with everything, the AI is a washout) so multiple attacks by same sub vs one TF is almost impossible.
First is true, it is bad that they chose to track ammo by salvo, not individually. This will certainly cutdown expected merchant kills by a factor of 2 approximately (standard shot was 2 torpedoes per target, not 6 or 4 as we have now).
On the other hand, multiple attacks are possible, especially against a stationary target. Though, most of the time in the open sea, it requires player movement of the sub along the projected track of the target ships. Personally have done it, with a sub tagging along with the same TF plugging AK's as she goes. Requires some time, guesswork, and ideally multiple SS to cover the target TF's options.
quote:
Third, air searches spot subs at a really fantastic rate (because subs are assumed to be on the surface all the time and air searches are not sector oriented but radius oriented, so all aircraft on search basically fly over every hex 360 degrees around their base out to the range setting!!!) and as a result a subs DL (detection level) is more often than not so high that they are either attacked outright by ASW forces or aircraft or are simply neutralized by the DL's impact on the leader aggression rating.
Gah...this one again...you make it sound like a US submarine was never sighted on the surface, much less attacked, from the air....From every thing that I have ever read, saw, heard, it would be more unusual for a SS NOT to have at least one or two air contacts in a patrol than the other way. And, if you move the sub patrols, the MDL drops quite a bit.
quote:
Fourth...merchant durability ratings are much to high in stock games. As a result, it generally takes a shower of shell, bomb and even torpedo hits to fataly damage a merchant.
I have found that two torpedo hits will account for a merchant eventually in a vast majority of the cases. As to bomb/shell effects, well I have sunk nearly as many merchants with bombs as with torpedoes; again, sometimes the results are delayed in reporting in.
Now, I am attaching a list of sunk ships/tonnage that I found. The total number of ships sunk to US subs seems a bit low. Has anyone access to a better listing? I have seen anywhere from 1300 to 2500 ships credited to SS during the war, but this list shows fewer.
 Attachment (1)
_____________________________
Sing to the tune of "Man on the Flying Trapeze"
..Oh! We fly o'er the treetops with inches to spare,
There's smoke in the cockpit and gray in my hair.
The tracers look fine as a strafin' we go.
But, brother, we're TOO God damn low...
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Submarine Warfare Statistics and Discussion - 
The author of Thunder Below still got credit for the only railroad train "sunk" by a submarine. If you don't know that story, it's a good one.
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