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Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units

 
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Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 12/14/2006 7:56:53 AM   
wwiiguy

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		I saw some discussion on a post in this forum in regards to breaking down units into 3 smaller units and rotation of one unit into tactical reserve. It has been my understanding that when you break down the units they are not as strong as the whole unit in combination. Is this a common best practice? Or is it a situational tactic based on the type of scenario you are playing?

Post #: 1
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 12/14/2006 10:32:00 AM   
Silvanski


Posts: 2506
Joined: 1/23/2005
From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
Status: offline 		Depends on the situation: filling gaps in your line, guarding supply lines against enemy guerillas or paradrops ...

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Post #: 2
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 12/14/2006 12:01:02 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		Because of the proficiency drop, it's ideal to be able to do everything with intact units. However it is important to bear in mind the possibility of dividing units, to allow you to vary the strength of your line; if you have ten brigades to cover a stretch of the line ten hexes long, you may want to cover six of those hexes with battalions, three with single brigades, and a road blocked by two brigades, leaving three in reserve, or some other combination.

The tactical reserve setting is to be used sparingly. I wouldn't apply it as a matter of course or you might find it having a detrimental affect on your defences.

Dividing units is also good if you need to convert hexes, to complete encirclements or to force your opponent to present a front, as well as dealing with guerrillas (particularly the event effect) as mentioned by Silvanski.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 12/14/2006 12:09:48 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 12/14/2006 6:58:44 PM   
hank

 

Posts: 623
Joined: 8/24/2003
From: west tn
Status: offline 		Over at the SZO forums much has been discussed about this.

Basically what I've learned, it all depends on the situation.  Breaking down units for defense can be helpful (key word - 'can').  The broke down units are weaker but you can create deeper lines of defense.  I tend to break units down on defense more than of offense.  Plus, for me anyway, I try to keep the broken down units close so I can re-combine them when needed w/o a lot of moving around. 

If you need more info search the SZO forum for TOAW.  Another thing discussed there in depth is how to maximize rounds of combat per turn.

good luck

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 4
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 12/15/2006 9:47:30 PM   
shunwick


Posts: 2426
Joined: 10/15/2006
Status: offline 		A few years ago I bought TOAW 2 although I didn't have much chance to play it.

Under the TOAW 2 rules breaking down a unit and then recombining the parts resulted in a 12% permanent loss of proficiency. I always thought this was odd and I am glad to see that TOAW 3 allows units to recombine with no permanent penalties.

Just curious though, does anyone know the thinking behind the original scheme?

Best wishes,


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Post #: 5
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 12/15/2006 11:29:39 PM   
FaneFlugt


Posts: 188
Joined: 7/27/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Here is my take on breaking down units in a defensive situation:

If you are contemplation breaking down a unit. Break it. Its better to Scatter and die, than Group up and be destroyed.

By scattering, you deny the enemy the chance to encircle you with a few troops, and speed advance with the rest towards his objective.

I always think of my units as partisans after i have broken them up. Seek forest, highgrounds, cities go into fortified mode if you can and

choose ignore casulties. Leave some long range art behind to boost your defences. Entrench and bye time, while you build up a new front.


(in reply to shunwick)
Post #: 6
Sometimes - Sometimes Not - 12/16/2006 12:42:15 AM   
rhinobones

 

Posts: 1540
Joined: 2/17/2002
Status: offline 		Sometimes I find it advisable (and sometime regrettable) to break down units (usually on the defense and into two rather than three subunits) just so that the enemy cannot break them down for you.

Really find it annoying when a defending unit crumbles and retreats two or three different directions. Really, really annoying when all three subunits are then rendered to the “re-organize” status.

Maybe a switch can be added to TOAW III Mk1 that allows the scenario designer to decide which units can, or can not, be divided. Something like the current selection whether a unit can, or can not, be reconstituted.

Regards, RhinoBones

(in reply to wwiiguy)
Post #: 7
RE: Sometimes - Sometimes Not - 12/16/2006 3:54:13 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rhinobones

Maybe a switch can be added to TOAW III Mk1 that allows the scenario designer to decide which units can, or can not, be divided.


One can already acheive this to a certain extent by using the section size icon, or by flooding the formation with dummy units up to the maximum size. Of course these approaches have their limitations.

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Post #: 8
RE: Sometimes - Sometimes Not - 12/16/2006 7:41:35 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Playing Fite another use for deviding units is to more rapidly fill back areas which are behing the front but not yet converted to your Zone of control..

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 9
RE: Sometimes - Sometimes Not - 1/3/2007 9:35:54 PM   
wwiiguy

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		Thanks for all the ideas. I've been playing around and definitely found that breaking units down can be useful to:

1) Cover a longer line when you need to.
2) Scout a large area when you break out from your enemy's defenses.
3) Provide an early warning recon screen when on the move behind the lines.
4) Provide a reguard force to get in the way of an on coming force when withdrawing.
5) Repairing railroads more quickly.


(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 10
RE: Sometimes - Sometimes Not - 1/3/2007 11:00:22 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wwiiguy

5) Repairing railroads more quickly.


N.B. that dividing units can actually reduce their rail repair capability. If the sub-units have repair levels of less than 50% for half-units or 33% for third-units, you're better off with just the one as this avoids the proficiency loss.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
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Post #: 11
RE: Sometimes - Sometimes Not - 1/4/2007 1:56:53 AM   
wwiiguy

 

Posts: 22
Joined: 11/30/2006
From: Minneapolis, MN
Status: offline 		Don't they regain some of that proficiency after a couple of turns though? It appears that way to me.

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Post #: 12
RE: Sometimes - Sometimes Not - 1/4/2007 11:35:01 AM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wwiiguy

Don't they regain some of that proficiency after a couple of turns though? It appears that way to me.


Only if they are in combat or receiving replacements.

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 13
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 1/4/2007 4:15:27 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 520
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline 		In some cases, you might have units with 90%+ profiency. When you attack with units like that, they tend to always pass prof checks and will remain in combat for longer than you probably want thus eating your entire turn. In those cases, if you break the unit down to 2 or 3 pieces and do the same attack, you will probably use less of your turn.

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Post #: 14
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 1/4/2007 5:25:41 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

In some cases, you might have units with 90%+ profiency. When you attack with units like that, they tend to always pass prof checks and will remain in combat for longer than you probably want thus eating your entire turn. In those cases, if you break the unit down to 2 or 3 pieces and do the same attack, you will probably use less of your turn.


True. Of course, such high proficiency is desireable on the defence, so one could just employ such units elsewhere.

< Message edited by golden delicious -- 1/4/2007 5:36:29 PM >

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
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Post #: 15
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 1/4/2007 5:47:17 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 520
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline 		Well, I have to admit, I just like lots of units =) I really wish more scenarios had more units and a lot less fluffy stuff that should probably just be folded into the other units (AA, AT etc).

(in reply to golden delicious)
Post #: 16
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 1/4/2007 7:30:04 PM   
golden delicious


Posts: 5575
Joined: 9/5/2000
From: London, Surrey, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

Well, I have to admit, I just like lots of units =) I really wish more scenarios had more units and a lot less fluffy stuff that should probably just be folded into the other units (AA, AT etc).


Ant units should just be amalgamated- but it's nice to have variety in an OOB.

_____________________________

"What did you read at university?"
"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 17
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 1/9/2007 5:14:36 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wwiiguy

I saw some discussion on a post in this forum in regards to breaking down units into 3 smaller units and rotation of one unit into tactical reserve. It has been my understanding that when you break down the units they are not as strong as the whole unit in combination. Is this a common best practice? Or is it a situational tactic based on the type of scenario you are playing?




..go for it, if the designers allow it, use it..

..one use..divide into three, involve one third in an attack, that third at min loss lmtd attack, then recombine, voila, a tried unit..


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Post #: 18
RE: Breaking Down Units Into Smaller Units - 1/9/2007 5:16:49 PM   
a white rabbit


Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious


quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

Well, I have to admit, I just like lots of units =) I really wish more scenarios had more units and a lot less fluffy stuff that should probably just be folded into the other units (AA, AT etc).


Ant units should just be amalgamated- but it's nice to have variety in an OOB.



..if the designer puts in
quote:

fluffy stuff
, nice phrase, ...then he knows what he's doing, milk it..

..imo, they shouldn't be there, or if they are only with a proficiency of 10%, butttt, it's a bit " let's show i studied the oob " time..

< Message edited by a white rabbit -- 1/9/2007 5:33:26 PM >

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Post #: 19
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