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88s / reloading off map arty / windows - 8/9/2000 10:02:00 AM   
Louie the Toad

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 8/1/2000
Status: offline 		1)I noticed that 88s are dual purpose vs tanks and planes is this accurate? 2)With ammo trucks you can reload on map artillery. Why no way to reload off map arty? 3)In which version does SPWAW become a true Windows game and thus allow printing of screen view to be used as a map.

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- 8/9/2000 10:24:00 AM   
Beantown

 

Posts: 20
Joined: 6/28/2000
From: newton, MA USA
Status: offline 		1)The 88 mm was definitely a dual purpose gun (ask any B-17 pilot), although I think it had to be set up for AA fire differently-not real sure it couldn't be quickl switched in a combat setting, though. 2)I suspect because off-map artillery is not organic; it is usually given (i.e. loaned)by the unit's division/brigade/etc., and the commander that one represents in a typical SPWAW scenario would have little control over it as far as supply went. 3)beyond me. Hope that helped some.

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Post #: 2
- 8/9/2000 10:38:00 AM   
Pack Rat

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline 		1. For this game yes. This board has had a few posts dedicated to if this should be or not. In real life it took a fair amount of time to change from one role to the other. 2. The only way to get more ammo for your off board, as of now, is to edit the oob's. ( I'll ask again, I think for about the 4th or 5th time "more ammo for off board please") 3. To my knowledge SPWaW started as a Windows native program. I seem to recall something about converting screen shots to maps. I'm sure someone can help here. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat [This message has been edited by Pack Rat (edited August 08, 2000).]

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PR

(in reply to Louie the Toad)
Post #: 3
- 8/9/2000 11:30:00 AM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		Oh, the *last* thing I want is more ammo for off-board artillery. Why not just purchase more off-board? Too much artillery will ruin a battle in a big hurry like SP3 is (was). Redleg

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Post #: 4
- 8/9/2000 11:31:00 AM   
Redleg


Posts: 1805
Joined: 5/23/2000
Status: offline 		Oh, the *last* thing I want is more ammo for off-board artillery. Why not just purchase more off-board? Too much artillery will ruin a battle in a big hurry like SP3 is (was). Redleg

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Post #: 5
- 8/9/2000 12:25:00 PM   
Pack Rat

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline 		Most of the time I would agree with you. On an assult which I would think would be a pre-planed operation a bombardment would be in order. Ammo stocks in such a case would be high. Present ammo supplies don't really allow for this. Buy more, good idea if you can afford it. Change the OOB's and I'm into a non-stock game that I have to reconfigure for human v human or another type of game. True we can buy on-board and nest them around ammo points, but the many types of arty are not all there for on-board. Assults are hard enough and blistering a mine defense with arty is an option that I think could be improved. Just my point of view. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat

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Post #: 6
- 8/9/2000 12:57:00 PM   
Drake666

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 4/22/2000
Status: offline 		When I was doing research for a scenario im working on I found the below facts out about the ammo arty had. This is for the normal 9 Batteries of a German infantry division at Omaha beach. The artillery had available one basic load of ammunition. For the 10,5 cm howitzers this meant 225 rounds per gun, while the 15 cm howitzers had 150 rounds each. Altogether this meant 301 tons of ammunition. This is a fixed position that never seen any action and had time to law in ammo. Now if arty is on the move its going to have less ammo avalible to it at one time, you got to remember that it takes time to setup supply dumps and then get the ammo to were the guns are, you just cant move 300+ tons of ammo with the game at all times. I think from looking at this that the amount of ammo that off map arty has for the time frame involded is good.

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Post #: 7
- 8/9/2000 1:45:00 PM   
Pack Rat

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Redleg: Too much artillery will ruin a battle in a big hurry like SP3 is (was). Redleg
A couple of things to think about perhaps. The maps can or are much much bigger. I'm not getting near the response time that I did in SP3. The art fire isn't as leathal. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat

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Post #: 8
- 8/9/2000 2:04:00 PM   
Pack Rat

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline 		Drake666, Your points are well taken. I agree. We are however given unlimited ammo now within limits with ammo dumps and ammo trucks for our on-board and very cheaply I might add. The key word to me is still assult. Which still means to me some form of preplan, hence ammo stocked up for art. If I set a mine field in depth I can guarantee the AI doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell. A human player may do better but not much. Maybe others don't see a problem with assults. I admit I don't like them unless I'm behind the mines That mine fields in depth were used we only need look at North Africa. As a test some time ago I bought a huge amount of art and I do mean huge and slammed away at a three in depth mine field and never did breach it completly with art and shouldn't have. Let me rephrase this. Do others think that the mine removal tanks go through mine fields fast enough? Engineers? ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat

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Post #: 9
- 8/9/2000 7:53:00 PM   
Drake666

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 4/22/2000
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Pack Rat: Drake666, Your points are well taken. I agree. We are however given unlimited ammo now within limits with ammo dumps and ammo trucks for our on-board and very cheaply I might add. The key word to me is still assult. Which still means to me some form of preplan, hence ammo stocked up for art. If I set a mine field in depth I can guarantee the AI doesn't stand a snowballs chance in hell. A human player may do better but not much. Maybe others don't see a problem with assults. I admit I don't like them unless I'm behind the mines That mine fields in depth were used we only need look at North Africa. As a test some time ago I bought a huge amount of art and I do mean huge and slammed away at a three in depth mine field and never did breach it completly with art and shouldn't have. Let me rephrase this. Do others think that the mine removal tanks go through mine fields fast enough? Engineers?
Maybe it would be a good idea to include a special arty battary that you could only buy in assault engagements that would have double the ammo or so but would be more expensive. Just an idea. As for buying engineers and stuff to remove mines. I never do it, I always will go for speed and loss some units to mines then try and remove them. It normally ends up being cheaper that way anyway. [This message has been edited by Drake666 (edited August 09, 2000).]

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Post #: 10
- 8/9/2000 8:45:00 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		why not just use the 'unlimited ammo' option for certain designed scenerios? SP in most cases usually has a time scale reletively short in nature, and certain types of assault missions would have given either or both sides plenty of time to stock adequate #'s of rounds....enough at least to last throughout the length of the battle being portrayed. Kursk comes to mind. The Germans gave the Soviets all the time in the world to stock up and prepare for them.

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Post #: 11
- 8/9/2000 9:47:00 PM   
renwor

 

Posts: 118
Joined: 5/17/2000
From: czech republic
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Pack Rat: Drake666, Let me rephrase this. Do others think that the mine removal tanks go through mine fields fast enough? Engineers?
Funny You mention it. I think the mines/removal may even deserve it's own topic. I think minesweepers REMOVE minefields fast enough, TOO fast in fact. It tkes time to clear 25m perimeter, even if there is just 10mines there, but how do you know? But you don't need to remove EVERY mine to go through minefield safely, do you? Some "flagging" option would be nice. Engineers would "flag" the passage through hex, so going through hex would give speed penalty, but at no explosion risk. Those path in minefields may even connect only two hexsides a time , but are we speaking about Steel Panthers still? Renwor

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Post #: 12
- 8/10/2000 12:15:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		Version 3 has seperate AA and AT version 88s - I know - they may not be effective against low level attacks, but for those that want want them - they are there... SPWaW is a "true" windows game, the problem is with dealing with the plethora of video cards out there, and the way the garphjics were converted form DOS. It would take a whole new game engine to fix that. Arty is based on similar considerations to those brought up by Drake666. THough in some cases (like Naval guns) it representsa "level of commitment" to your task. There are screen capture utilities out there that work - I'm sure those who frequently use screen caps can point you to them.

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Post #: 13
- 8/10/2000 1:04:00 AM   
Desert Fox

 

Posts: 171
Joined: 5/9/2000
From: Ohio, that is all I can say.
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Paul Vebber: Version 3 has seperate AA and AT version 88s - I know - they may not be effective against low level attacks, but for those that want want them - they are there...
Ok, but where is the on board arty 88? Hmmm? If you are gonna separate roles like that, then we need an arty version of the 88. I would also mention that if you do this for the 88, you also have to do this for the soviet 85mm and the american 90mm weapons. I don't know that the soviets used their 85 im an artillery role, but it definitely can be used in AA and AT roles as it is right now. The 90mm was used in all three roles like the 88. And here is another thought while we are talking about the big AA guns. In another thread somewhere, someone brought up the theory that there should be 3 types of aircraft, Dive bombers, strafers, and level bombers. It has also been pointed out that the 88 can not easily engage strafers, and probably would have a very hard time with dive bombers too. Well, my idea is that for these big AA guns, we code them so that they can only engage level bombers as AA units. The smaller AA guns can engage all targets except level bombers. And level bombers should probably attack in flight strength, making carpet bombing a reality, even if its only for very small areas. It would also have to be more inaccurate. This would probably not be delivered in V3, but a guy can wish can't he? Well, its an idea anyways.

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Post #: 14
- 8/10/2000 1:55:00 AM   
Pack Rat

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Drake666: [B] Maybe it would be a good idea to include a special arty battary that you could only buy in assault engagements that would have double the ammo or so but would be more expensive. Just an idea. As for buying engineers and stuff to remove mines. I never do it, I always will go for speed and loss some units to mines then try and remove them. It normally ends up being cheaper that way anyway. B]
I'd like to see an assult art with more ammo, but I fear the oob's won't allow for much more in most cases. Umm interesting approach with just taking the loses, must admit I haven't tried that on purpose. ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat

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PR

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Post #: 15
- 8/10/2000 2:01:00 AM   
Pack Rat

 

Posts: 594
Joined: 5/8/2000
From: north central Pennsylvania USA
Status: offline 		Renwor The subject of mine removal I think is what is really behind my want of more ammo for off-board art. Let's run it up the flag pole and see if any one salutes ------------------ Good hunting, Pack Rat

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Post #: 16
- 8/10/2000 3:35:00 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		LIke M-10s and Shermans used "indirect" "ad hoc" usagewas by the owner "lobbiung shells somewhere". It s easy to find cases where it happend, butfind a case where it says it ever did anything? Nearly all the cases of 88s engaging troops at adistance was from a heihgt advange with an LOS. IT was two high a velocity gun to do "true" indirect fire other to to lob shells somewhere. Besides the crew wasn't trainind in answering calls for fire (which very few artillery crews were trained for - most WW2 fire was planned grid fire). So you can add "howiter" class 88s but , but the game would let you use them in a completely ahistorical fashion, as with many other weapons...

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Post #: 17
- 8/12/2000 9:17:00 PM   
gdpsnake

 

Posts: 786
Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Kempner, TX
Status: offline 		Minefields and Artillery - ah yes. My opinion is that off board artillery is about right. I think of it as a divisional or HHQ resource that a senior commander bestows upon me. After all, all the rest of the front might be begging for it too. I am gratefull to get what I get and the ammo I get reflects my 'portion' of the total alloted for the whole days battles everywhere. Artillery is the answer for minefields - but - USE SMOKE! First, pound suspected positions on elevations using bombardment during setup. Then I run my engineers up in their halftracks behind a smokescreen I keep going for 2-3 turns in front of where I suspect the mines would be, unload, and let them clear a hole that I later run my armor through. While clearing, I set some of my CS armor/halftracks/MG units up to pound (3 hexes range is perfect) the infantry behind the smoke from an angle on either side. My long range anti-tank units set up on elevations some distance back kills any response from opponents armor. Combined arms works and my losses are minimal. The real threat is opponents artillery dropping in but if you move your engineers a little each turn combined with drift (can't spot through smoke-may not even know you are there or choose 2 of 3 places to go through (one is feint), that is minimized to lucky shot you can usually recover from with rallys. Buy enough AA to handle air attacks.

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