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RE: Update as of 18 February 1942

 
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RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/16/2007 6:37:51 PM   
HMS Resolution


Posts: 350
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Status: offline 		I was under the impression that the equally lacklustre Blackburn Roc had preceeded the Fulmar into service; imagine, Gentlemen, if you will, an aircraft combining all the deficiencies of the Bolton-Paul Defiant with a speed 100MPH lower, so that it couldn't even run away properly...

I still have great difficulty understanding the need for an observer in what was nominally a fighter aircraft, but I suppose it was part and parcel of letting the RAF decide what the FAA needed or did not need. As it stands, it's sheer murder to field the Fulmar against Zekes, or probably even Oscars.

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 31
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 12:09:54 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I don't think you can compare the Battle to a fighter - if I put an RR engine in a garbage truck it will still be a garbarge truck - and the Fulmar was actually another development of the P4/34 design from which the Battle emerged. The Fulmar was a two seater, with a navigator as well as pilot, although it was still the first FAA monoplane fighter.


I wasn't comparing the Battle to a fighter, though I guess I wasn't all that clear. The Mosquito and Lancaster had Merlins and were excellent bombers, but the Battle also had the Merlin and it was a turkey.

The Hurricane was a decent fighter, but considered inferior to the Spitfire. It's performance was poorer than the Spitfire and reached a developmental dead end earlier because it was a more primitive airframe.

The P-51 and Spitfire were excellent fighters because they combined the Merlin with a first class airframe. Putting a Merlin into a turkey made a slightly better turkey. If you were lucky.

Bill

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 32
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 2:16:06 AM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		Unless it was the P51A Turkey

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RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 2:16:43 AM   
Ian R

 

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How do you get the smileys to work here?

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Post #: 34
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 2:57:30 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Unless it was the P51A Turkey


From what I have read, the P-51A was an excellent fighter at low altitudes. I recall reading a quote from a pilot who flew them in (I believe) the CBI who said that below 10,000 feet, they were the best plane in the sky.

Bill

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 35
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 3:25:15 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

I was under the impression that the equally lacklustre Blackburn Roc had preceeded the Fulmar into service; imagine, Gentlemen, if you will, an aircraft combining all the deficiencies of the Bolton-Paul Defiant with a speed 100MPH lower, so that it couldn't even run away properly...

I still have great difficulty understanding the need for an observer in what was nominally a fighter aircraft, but I suppose it was part and parcel of letting the RAF decide what the FAA needed or did not need. As it stands, it's sheer murder to field the Fulmar against Zekes, or probably even Oscars.


According to Green & Swanborough:

Fulmar:

first flew on 4 -1- 40, production of 600 finished xx-2-43. Served on 13 carriers.

Roc: "Blackburn B25 two-seat shipboard fighter-bomber derivative of the B-24 Skua dive bomber"

first flew 23-12-38 (production aircraft - there was no prototype), 136 plane build run contracted, none operated from carriers and after brief operational service relegated to second line duties.


So we're both right.

The search for a multi-role carrier plane continued with the Firefly ("strike fighter", and later there was an ASW version) and the Blackburn Firebrand TF MkV, the "torpedo fighter" whose performance in late 1944 would have been excellent for 1942/3. Of course what they needed was the F/A-18 Hornet, but in the end they settled for the F4U Corsair.



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RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 3:56:00 AM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		Bill, did the P51A's assessed by the RAF have or not have turbo-chargers?

I recall that the P-38s offered as Lend lease had had the turbo chargers removed as being secret and not available for export, resulting in poor performance, but am not sure about the Alison engined Mustangs. I do recall some of the 800 A36A/ P51A ordered by the USAAF were in operational use in the CBI with 1st Air Commando Group as late as March 1944, used as both "dive bombers" and tactical recon (ie low level, something particularly suitable).

They both had versions of the V-1710 engine - the early P38 had the -27/29 (F2) version (1150 hp), the A36A had the V1710 F3R (1150hp), the P51A the V1710-81 (1200hp).

The P38L in 1944 was powered by the V1710-111/113 engine generating 1600hp at 26,500 feet. Don't know if that includes the turbo charger.

Against that the Merlin 65 installed in the 5 Mustang I's fitted as test aircraft in 1942 generated 1750 hp at altitude, as did the Packard V 1650-3 version of the engine.

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RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 5:12:21 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

Bill, did the P51A's assessed by the RAF have or not have turbo-chargers?

I recall that the P-38s offered as Lend lease had had the turbo chargers removed as being secret and not available for export, resulting in poor performance, but am not sure about the Alison engined Mustangs. I do recall some of the 800 A36A/ P51A ordered by the USAAF were in operational use in the CBI with 1st Air Commando Group as late as March 1944, used as both "dive bombers" and tactical recon (ie low level, something particularly suitable).

They both had versions of the V-1710 engine - the early P38 had the -27/29 (F2) version (1150 hp), the A36A had the V1710 F3R (1150hp), the P51A the V1710-81 (1200hp).

The P38L in 1944 was powered by the V1710-111/113 engine generating 1600hp at 26,500 feet. Don't know if that includes the turbo charger.

Against that the Merlin 65 installed in the 5 Mustang I's fitted as test aircraft in 1942 generated 1750 hp at altitude, as did the Packard V 1650-3 version of the engine.


No Allison powered Mustangs had superchargers. The P-51 was built because North American didn't want to build P-40s for the British. The British were using P-40s for ground support and wanted more. North American thought they could make a better plane and did. The initial P-51s used Allisons because it was the only high performance liquid cooled engine available to US manufacturers at the time.

When the 9th AF was formed, the USAAF followed the same practice as the British and slated all P-51s to go into that AF for ground attack and the P-47s to remain in the 8th AF for escort duty. Some 8th AF pilots who were aware of the better performance and potentially better range of the P-51 campaigned for getting the P-51s sent to the 8th. A compromise was reached where the first fighter unit of the 9th that already had P-51s would keep them, but all future P-51s would go to 8th AF groups. The 8th borrowed the one unit with P-51s until the D-Day invasion.

The 1600hp at altitude for the P-38 was almost certainly with super chargers.

Bill

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 38
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 5:41:47 AM   
Ian R

 

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Status: offline 		I should have said "high altitude turkey".

The upgrade path in the game is A36 -> P47C. I am starting to wonder if that is right. Although there are only one or two Apache groups in the game, they are pretty useful. (max speed 390, man. 32 and a rare (for a fighter bomber) 2 rating for armour plating - better at low level than the P40.) I keep them around until there is a huge pool of P51s and P47s in 1944.

< Message edited by Ian R -- 1/17/2007 5:54:27 AM >

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RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 6:33:26 AM   
wdolson

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

I should have said "high altitude turkey".

The upgrade path in the game is A36 -> P47C. I am starting to wonder if that is right. Although there are only one or two Apache groups in the game, they are pretty useful. (max speed 390, man. 32 and a rare (for a fighter bomber) 2 rating for armour plating - better at low level than the P40.) I keep them around until there is a huge pool of P51s and P47s in 1944.


I just did some further research. Only one fighter group had A-36s in the CBI. That was the 311th FG, which consisted of the 528th, 529th, and 539th fighter squadrons. I can't find the source now, but not too long ago I read that two of the squadrons upgraded to P-51B/Cs soon after arrival in India. The third squadron operated a mix of A-36s and P-51s when the group moved to the 14th AF in China in 1944.

The game should upgrade the A-36 to the P-51B. No unit in the area covered by the game ever operated P-47s and A-36s.

Poking around, I did notice a blurb saying that most of the 300 P-51As served in India. I didn't research any further though. The P-51A had hardpoints for external fuel tanks and was equipped as an exscort fighter. It was similarly equipped as the P-51B, but with the Allison engine and its limitations.

Bill

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Post #: 40
Transmissions from the front, 3/7/42 - 1/17/2007 9:18:52 AM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		CENTPAC ALL COMMANDS BE ADVISED
WE HAVE STRUCK BACK RPT WE HAVE STRUCK BACK X TODAY AT 2230 HRS THE MARCUS ISLANDS FELL TO USMC TROOPS AFTER PREPATORY BOMBARDMENT BY SARATOGA AND YORKTOWN X OPERATION LIGHTING COMPLETE SUCESS X THIS ONLY THE BEGINNING X


Partial Transcript of RAF radio chatter over Akyab, 4 March 1942

Ground Control: Hullo Hedgehog Leader, this is Akyab Control. I have some trade for you, eighty-plus bandits, angels one-eight, heading for your position.

Hedgehog Leader: Rodger, Akyab Control. All Hedgehogs, climb to angels two-zero, and watch out for those fighters.

Yankee Leader: Hello Hedgehog, this is Yankee Leader, I am ten miles south of you at angels two-one, closing on your position as fast as I can go.

Ground Control: Hello Hedgehog, this is Akyab Control. You have some friendlies, heading for your position. Sixteen Kittyhawks, angels two-one.

Hedgehog Leader: Much appreciated, Akyab Control.

Blue Four: Tally ho, Hedgehog Leader, this is Blue Four, I see them! Hordes of them!

Yankee Leader: All Yankees, attacking now. A flight, B flight, stick with me. Everyone else, go for the bombers.

[Various unidentified voices]: Roger.

Blue Leader: Hedgehog Leader, this is Blue Leader. I am taking my section in to break up those Oscars.

Hedgehog Leader: Roger, Blue Leader. Red section, Yellow section, head for the bombers. Hit them hard. All other fighters, follow me in. Attacking...now.


OFFICIAL RAF COMMUNIQUE, 5 March 1942

Yesterday our fighters, assisted by American pilots of the A.V.G., shot down eighteen fighters and seventeen bombers over Akyab, for the loss of only three aircraft. All of our pilots were saved.


Royal Navy Transmission, 7 March 1942
Dutch seaplanes now based at NICOBAR to observe Japanese convoy traffic from SINGAPORE to RANGOON. All commands to go to full alert; Japanese retaliation may be forthcoming.

Transmission to Eastern Fleet HQ, from Admiral Palliser, HMS REVENGE, March 7 1942
Estimate repairs to REVENGE will be completed before end of the month. HMAS CANBERRA and AUSTRALIA to be attached to my command along with HMS ENTERPRISE and HERMES for possible offensive action against forces of the Empire of Japan.


Message to Prime Minister, from General Alan Brooke, 3/3/1942
We are scheduling our next I.G.S. paper for after the 15th, as we expect momentous events to take place in the next few days.

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 41
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 10:16:14 AM   
Ian R

 

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This was getting a bit OT for the AAR









< Message edited by Ian R -- 1/17/2007 10:57:11 AM >

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RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/17/2007 10:19:07 AM   
Ian R

 

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< Message edited by Ian R -- 1/17/2007 10:54:25 AM >

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RE: Transmissions from the front, 3/7/42 - 1/17/2007 10:29:42 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

CENTPAC ALL COMMANDS BE ADVISED
WE HAVE STRUCK BACK RPT WE HAVE STRUCK BACK X TODAY AT 2230 HRS THE MARCUS ISLANDS FELL TO USMC TROOPS AFTER PREPATORY BOMBARDMENT BY SARATOGA AND YORKTOWN X OPERATION LIGHTING COMPLETE SUCESS X THIS ONLY THE BEGINNING X




Yesterday our fighters, assisted by American pilots of the A.V.G., shot down eighteen fighters and seventeen bombers over Akyab, for the loss of only three aircraft. All of our pilots were saved.




Well done, Resolution! Now to see how the AI will react . . .

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Post #: 44
Brief update, 3/14/42 - 1/19/2007 5:48:15 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		A brief update as I've been pretty busy with work and a brand-new Zune for the past few days...

The Japanese may have feinted towards Andaman and Nicobar, or it may have been coastal traffic heading for Rangoon that, for whatever reason, decided not to hug the coast, but they had me keeping Force C (soon to be bolstered by the arrival of another wholly inadequate carrier) 240nm east of the islands, just in case.

I think I may have seriously mauled the Japanese over Akyab; they haven't raided in the past two days after suffering heavy casualties for a week; by the end of it, even the Zekes were breaking off combat. They did hit Andaman once, and shot down five hapless Buffalos, but their fighter escorts seem much reduced; I've been shooting down at least ten a day over Akyab, many of them Zekes. Their performance near the end was abysmal; Hurricans were achieving three or four to one kill ratios, so it would seem pilot fatigue had really taken a toll. I've been taking care to rotate squadrons in and out of Akyab, flying them back to Chandpur and standing them down when their fatigue gets too high and their morale gets too low.

My ground troops are another matter. I'm rushing the Burma Corps HQ, the 7th Armd Bde, the 2nd UK Inf Div, and various artillery regiments to Akyab, but aerial reconnaissance shows what looks like a second infantry division and an armored regiment approaching from SW of Akyab; I've been hitting it for the past three days with 60+ Blenheims to try and disorganize them a little before they get to me.

Chinese troops are starting to arrive in the eastern half of Burma, and I hope to undertake a limited counteroffensive to draw away Japanese forces from Akyab.

The Dutch air force managed to sink the CL Kuma, after hitting her six times over a period of five days with 250 and 500 lb bombs. This war is eating IJN light cruisers alive, with four sunk so far, all by air attack. I've lost more, of course, but only HNLMS DE Ruyter and HMAS Perth were even remotely modern.

Rabaul has been quiet recently, with USAAF bombers still recovering from the hits to their morale, but I did manage to land the 2nd USMC Division at Gasmata, with more troops on their way. An Australian infantry bde and tank rgt are in contact with a weak Japanese blocking force NE of Gasmata, and are making slow but steady progress in pushing them back. I hope to make it to Rabaul proper by July.

I've based Catalinas in the Marcus Islands, but so far there's been no sign of a Japanese countermove; Hiryu appears to be in the Java sea again.

I'm rushing USAAF A-20 Havocs to India to help out on the ground, as well as some P-36 Mohawks, mostly because I can't think of anywhere else to put them.

Things are kind of in flux right now. I'm almost strong enough to hit back in some critical areas, but they're definitely still stronger than me, and any overextension will be fatal. I'm really hoping to further maul the Betty bombers in Malaysia and Burma, so that I can make full use of the Eastern Fleet's surface forces, which are at near maximum strength (5 battleships, 1 battlecruiser, three heavy cruisers, numerous lighter ships). 

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Post #: 45
IGS Briefing as of 4/1/1942 - 1/22/2007 2:42:34 AM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		OVERVIEW OF THE SITUATION IN THE SEAC THEATRE

Akyab still flies the British flag, but our men are facing 65,000 Japanese troops from three divisions, plus advance elements of two armored regiments as well as artillery units. We currently have 30,000 men in the line, including base troops and support personnel who maintain the approximately fifty Hurricanes we have kept stationed there (see below). Reinforcements are moving as fast as they can to augment our men; the 7th Armd Bde, 21st UK Mtn Art Rgt, 15th UK FA Rgt, and 26th Ind Div are all en route, and the 2nd UK Div is heading to Akyab from Lucknow.

GENERAL SITUATION IN THE AIR, SEAC
Our pilots have improved immensely, maintaining a highly favorable kill ratio for the past month, with some assistance from the AVG (currently still out of action while refitting with P-40E type aircraft). At no point has the exchange rate dropped below 2-to-1 in our favor, and the most recent raid was turned back with 2 ZEKE, 16 BETTY, and 6 OSCAR for no losses to ourselves. If we can hold Akyab, it will be a rock that the enemy's air force will dash itself to pieces on.

Less favorably, none of our Blenheim squadrons even attempted to strike at the IJN carrier force which entered the Bay of Bengal and stood off Diamond Harbour for two days, although we had 96 a/c able to fly. We are fortunate that all of the harbours could be cleared out in time.

NAVAL SITUATION, SEAC

All of our surface ships were forced to beat an ignominious retreat to avoid destruction at the hands of the six Japanese carriers, and we were temporarily forced to detail over 100 Hurricanes to fly top cover as insurance against a raid on Diamond Harbour which never came, mercifully for Force N (HMS Royal Sovereign, flag) which was re-ammunitioning there after a night bombardment of Akyab, and which was able to retreat to Karachi with our other ships.

The Dutch submarines reassigned to our theater did yeoman work, with O19 narrowly missing the seaplane cruiser Tone with two torpedoes. Throughout the IJN's incursion into the Bay of Bengal, Dutch submarines shadowed the Japanese ships and provided accurate information as to their dispositions. We will be making further use of them in the region of Singapore in the future.

GENERAL SITUATION REPORT, SO/WESPAC AREA

The 2nd USMC Division was successfully landed at Gasmata shortly before the 1st Australian Bde, supported by a Tk rgt, forced Japanese forces out of their encircling position around the Gasmata perimeter and to within 60 miles of Rabaul proper. USAAF bombers have completely shut down the Rabaul airfield, with no planes flying from it, and are now working on knocking out the port of Rabaul itself. SOPAC Command reports they expect to take Rabaul by July.

The USN now has five fleet carriers at Pearl Harbor, and reports no sign of a Japanese reaction to their seizure of the Marcus Islands.

Further reports as the situation warrants.


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Post #: 46
RE: IGS Briefing as of 4/1/1942 - 1/22/2007 3:41:25 AM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution
...................
Less favorably, none of our Blenheim squadrons even attempted to strike at the IJN carrier force which entered the Bay of Bengal and stood off Diamond Harbour for two days, although we had 96 a/c able to fly. We are fortunate that all of the harbours could be cleared out in time.....
....................
The USN now has five fleet carriers at Pearl Harbor, and reports no sign of a Japanese reaction to their seizure of the Marcus Islands.

Further reports as the situation warrants.


With the KB in the Bay of Bengal Iwo Jima is a pretty promising target, at the very least the Japanese would need to get it back again, disrupting the master plan.

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Post #: 47
RE: IGS Briefing as of 4/1/1942 - 1/22/2007 5:04:14 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		Well, they seem to be leaving the Bay---thank heavens, as literally all I could do was run away, although a Dutch sub did manage to make an attack run on the Akagi. No joy, though. Still, it must have been a far more frustrating trip for the IJN than the historical raid, since the only thing they sank was a single transport unloading supplies at Nicobar island. As it stands, though, the RN's only effective weapons currently are the Dutch submarines that have rebased there with the collapsing of the DEI.

As for Iwo, doesn't that make it more likely that they can make Kamikaze attacks sooner on in the war? I'm not sure that's something I want.

Also: w/r/t the ground situation at Akyab, do I even have a hope in heck of holding out? I'm seeing at least three IJN infantry divisions plus support troops, and probably more coming. I'm throwing everything aside from the Kohima/Imphal line defenses into this, but I'm already outnumbered two-to-one.

(in reply to Ian R)
Post #: 48
RE: IGS Briefing as of 4/1/1942 - 1/22/2007 5:26:53 PM   
Ian R

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

As for Iwo, doesn't that make it more likely that they can make Kamikaze attacks sooner on in the war? I'm not sure that's something I want.




It certainly is one of the trigger locations, but there is also IIRC a time constraint as well.

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Post #: 49
4/4/1942 - 1/24/2007 9:39:22 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		TO: Flag Officer, Force C (HMS INDOMITABLE)
Prepare to make steam immediately and proceed to ANDAMAN ISLAND. You will conduct antishipping strikes against Japanese convoys heading from SINGAPORE to RANGOON (Operation JOSEPH). Current intelligence estimates show no heavy enemy warships operating out of Singapore; last sighting of IJN aircraft carriers has them EAST of MALAYSIA in the GULF OF SIAM, heading EAST. Current enemy air activity appears to consist primarily of level bombing aircraft. All Fulmars are to be retained as fighter cover for the battlegroup.

TO: Flag Officer, Force N (HMS WARSPITE)
Proceed with all haste to DIAMOND HARBOUR and prepare to conduct a night bombardment of enemy positions at AKYAB (Operation CONRAD). You may expect fighter cover from the A.V.G. (72 P-40E fighters) and our aircraft based at Akyab (approximately 50 Hurricane II a/c) during this operation. Enemy air activity over AKYAB has been minimal recently, with heavy losses suffered by their BETTY and ZEKE types. No enemy surface forces are expected to be in the area. If any enemy surface units are encountered, you are to sweep them from the seas.

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Post #: 50
RE: 4/4/1942 - 1/24/2007 9:48:57 PM   
Terminus


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Post #: 51
RE: 4/4/1942 - 1/24/2007 9:53:47 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		A fine one for sea stories, he was.

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Post #: 52
RE: 4/4/1942 - 1/24/2007 9:58:21 PM   
Terminus


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Post #: 53
RE: 4/4/1942 - 1/24/2007 10:22:53 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

A fine one for sea stories, he was.


Hmmmm. Yes, but he also wrote "Heart of Darkness" (the basis for the movie "Apocalypse Now"). In his story, there is a scene of a battleship firing into Africa, but being unable to spot fall of shell because of the dense jungle. Let's hope your shore bombardment meets with more success.

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Post #: 54
RE: 4/4/1942 - 1/24/2007 10:48:51 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		Yes, the gunboat blazing away was also on my mind.

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Post #: 55
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/24/2007 11:25:14 PM   
sprior


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Status: offline 		Hi Reso. Another Brit in the Chicagoland area? I served on the Reso too (the SSBN not the R-Class thing).

PS. The RN is in WPO.

< Message edited by sprior -- 1/24/2007 11:38:01 PM >

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Post #: 56
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/24/2007 11:38:46 PM   
HMS Resolution


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Status: offline 		A-heh, well... actually I'm from the USA, being one of those tiresome anglophiles you sometimes encounter. For no good reason, I love the old R-Class battleships, and am hoping to give HMS Resolution and her sisters a chance to take on Fuso or Yamashiro if I can swing it.

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Post #: 57
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/25/2007 10:24:26 PM   
Capt. Harlock


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quote:

ORIGINAL: HMS Resolution

For no good reason, I love the old R-Class battleships,


Probably rooting for the underdogs -- the "R"-class were always treated as the Queen Elizabeth-class' poorer cousins.


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(in reply to HMS Resolution)
Post #: 58
RE: Update as of 18 February 1942 - 1/27/2007 8:30:12 AM   
HMS Resolution


Posts: 350
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		Hello everyone! I'm here at B-Fest for the next...oh...18 hours, watching bad movies.

I'm hoping to start coordinating some aeronaval operations in the Indian Ocean/Bay of Bengal area, since Japanese strength seems to be concentrated in the Java Sea and/or farther east. Hopefully I can score a quick raid against the amphibious shipping plying its way along the coast of Malaya, and evacuating Dutch A/C from Java and Sumatra are heading for Nicobar and Andaman. With any luck, I can actually apply a little pressure.

(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 59
SOPAC Flash Alert 4/22/42 - 1/29/2007 3:36:37 AM   
HMS Resolution


Posts: 350
Joined: 1/10/2007
Status: offline 		TO: SOPAC THEATER, ALL UNITS

ALL COMMANDS BE ADVISED USN BB SAG SANK JAP BB KONGO IN RABAUL HARBOR AFTER SHELLING X KONGO DMGED PRIOR BY USAAF BOMBING AND RN/RAN SHIPS IN NIGHT ACTION ON 4/10/42.

(in reply to HMS Resolution)
Post #: 60
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