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OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 11:47:17 AM   
AU Tiger_MatrixForum


Posts: 1606
Joined: 10/9/2006
From: Deepest Dixie
Status: offline 		I have noticed a number of WitP'ers from countries that had no part in the Pacific War. I was wondering why you are interested in this particular game, and I am quite curious as to your motivations. The simple fact that this is the best wargame out there is obvious, but why were you drawn to it in the first place?

A secondary question to all is why do you think there is no (that I have seen) Japanese participation in the forums?





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RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 11:52:33 AM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		There ARE some Japanese players out there (or at least LOCATED in Japan) although not to manny.
The English language still seems to be the main barrier there. I have noted that some non English sub communities have popped up to compensate for this, I am however unable to locate a JAPANESE sub community due to the fact that my Japanese is VERY bad (Hai is the limit there )



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Post #: 2
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 12:18:28 PM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		I'm playing WITP here in Brasil because WWII, especially the naval war, in the Pacific has always held a special interest to me.  Maybe this is partially due to the fact that my dad flew B-29s off of Tinian.  Anyway I retired and moved from the US to Brasil.

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Post #: 3
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 12:20:13 PM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline 		Interest in WWII naval warfare. I have read W. Lord's Incredible Victory at the age of 11.

As of no japanese participation I only can think of a language barrier. I know a guy who played (IIRC still do) play a japanese. But he said they are mostly communicating with kanjis cuz his english is so bad.

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 1/15/2007 12:33:13 PM >

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RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 12:21:48 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		The WW2 is the "Mother of all Wars". The world we can see was born after that huge conflict (even if the USSR already collapsed). I am much more interested in the European Theatre though, but this game does NOT exist yet. And I am thinking of course about a massive game like WitP. But the War in the Pacific is still a part of WW2. Let's not forget this: when the war started the Americans decided to send ONLY the 15% of their forces to this Theatre. Then the 30%. The Huge and Decisive Conflict was elsewhere (in Europe).

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 1/15/2007 12:33:11 PM >

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RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 12:44:25 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		A big part was my addiction to the old PacWar, but also a general interest in WWII (obviously)...

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RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 2:43:47 PM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		In Japan high school students are taught:

1) the nasty Americans started the war by trying to bully Japan by economic blockade and forced them into war;

2) they lost because they never had a chance of winning given the material disparity (actually true);

3) The nasty Americans fire and atom bombed them when as all they were doing was standing up for themselves and Asians generally against western bullying, and nasty Allied soldiers took no prisoners;

4) They all fought very honourably for the emperor.

They are not taught about any of:

1) Korean and other comfort women, the rape of Nanking, the machine gunning of Australian Nurses at Banka is, the bayoneting of hospitalised wounded (and the doctors), Unit 749 in Manchuria (# might be wrong), systematic rape and beatings dished out to civilians....; 

2) Sandakan, the Burma Railway, the Bataan death march, and other disgraceful, dishonourable, barbaric and murderous treatment of prisoners including using captured prisoners for bayonet practice, beheading captured aircrew and the like;

3) the fact that Japan opportunistically started the war to pursue its policies of aggrandisement at a point where its then main enemy and worry - The USSR - was a bit distracted, but unfortunately "frakked" things up bigtime;

4) The reason Allied soldiers took no prisoners was because of firstly the prevous barbarism of the IJA, secondly because often the prisoner would turn out to have a grenade with the pin out hidden on their person.

I don't read Japanese but those who do and have read the school texts say that the war depicted in them seems to have been one that took place in another universe. All Japanese atrocities are omitted, and Japan is depicted as the victim of US aggression.

Why? Because these are the school board approved texts. Ok the government and nation is in denial, but still, why?

The experts suggest two reasons, mainly,  -

1) an inability to come to grips with a very dishonourable defeat/surrender causing a distortion of history to something involving less loss of face.

2) the fact that there is no excuse for the barabaric atrocities means the only face saving device is to pretend they didn't happen ( one of the reasons Eisenhower ordered that German civilians be forced to tour the concentration camps and help clean them up was to stop this very phenomenon from setting in).

All meaning there is very little interest in serious study of or even reading of popular history of the war, which one expects has a flow on effect in terms of what you spend your leasure time on, including playing simulations like this one.



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RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 3:15:32 PM   
RAM

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 5/1/2000
From: Bilbao,Vizcaya,Spain
Status: offline 		When I was a kid (some 7 year old), I ran our of books to read. So I "stole" my sister's history schoolbook (she was 13 at that time),opened, and read some of it. I happened to open it on the WW1 chapters. I kept reading on until my sister noticed she was missing the book and took it back from me (quite some yells involved in that one, rofl)

That was the first time I read something about WWI and WWII, and that reading sparked my interest on both wars.

Some months later I saw a WW2 encyclopaedia shown on a library. I asked my dad to buy it for me. He agreed if I got good qualifications at school. Got them, so I got the encyclopaedia.

From then onwards it has been more and more books until today (I'm 29). movies, documentaries... And quite many computer games too (both wargamming and simulations), including Pacific War, which I loved back when I bought it.

When I heard that a newer and much bigger-scale version of PW was being developed, I simply couldn't wait. And as soon as it was released, I purchased WITP. That's why I play this game.

I'm spanish, BTW.





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"Look at me! look at me!!!

Not like that! NOT LIKE THAT!!!"

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Post #: 8
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 3:27:08 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		Alright, this is political, but not off topic:

Ian, as for high school books, the situation is going to change (in theory). Japan finally accepted to "get rid" of their ultra moronic revisionism. This happened less than one year ago: you may remember the Sino-Japanese dialectic "conflict" (the last 2 years). In other words, they are supposed to re-write those pseudo-historical books. Chinese on the other hand are supposed to eliminate anti-Japanese references in their books. Note that this "anti-Japanese" feeling was basically fueled by the Japanese revisionism itself

Better late than never

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 1/15/2007 3:39:09 PM >

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RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 3:28:01 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Provided it actually happens...

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Post #: 10
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 4:48:14 PM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: AU Tiger

I have noticed a number of WitP'ers from countries that had no part in the Pacific War. I was wondering why you are interested in this particular game, and I am quite curious as to your motivations. The simple fact that this is the best wargame out there is obvious, but why were you drawn to it in the first place?


Basically, I play WITP because love naval wargames and WW2 history. In WW2 strategy games (A&A, HOI etc) I always play naval powers like Japan or UK (no USA because usually it's too easy to win with them ).
Before WITP I played HOI 1 and 2, but I was not satisfied with naval combat. So I decided to try WITP and now I am still here, with 2 pbem running as Japan and thinking about starting the 3rd as Allies...

quote:


A secondary question to all is why do you think there is no (that I have seen) Japanese participation in the forums?


I do not know. Seems that no japanese wants to share his experiences with this great wargame...

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RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 5:02:02 PM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
Joined: 4/1/2004
From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		There ARE some Japanese contributors on these forums. At least 3. Bodhi is of course one of them (the person who made the excellent Idem's Utility -- and er... the guy who called me "pirate" )

Anyway, this is the Interweb. I don't think we can believe 100% what we read ("SexyLady7685" might be a truck driver looking for his next "victim" after all).

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 1/15/2007 5:14:22 PM >

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RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 7:09:20 PM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Was avid PacWar player, so obviously had to get this too... Never got UV, tho.

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Post #: 13
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 7:18:16 PM   
Andy_PZ


Posts: 80
Joined: 11/20/2006
Status: offline 		I am a Military History Nut! I own books,dvds, Pc games mostly of WW2 and I have focused on WW2 particulary Dunkirk and D Day but now am expanding my horizons.....

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Post #: 14
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 8:56:59 PM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		Military history buff from the age of 8 (esp WWII), wargames from the age of 10. We cleared a friend's basement at age 12 to refight Midway with carboard cutouts and homemade minituare rules. This baby (WITP) is the best wargame I've seen and the best at capturing something of the scope of the war (ok it's missing 75% of the war but I think I would die if I had to manage more). Oh and I thank whoever it was that pointed me here when I was venting my extreme dissapointment (put mildly) with GGWaW.

Canadian BTW.

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Post #: 15
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 11:01:18 PM   
Thilo


Posts: 28
Joined: 6/19/2004
From: Munich, Germany
Status: offline 		Three reasons for playing:
a) German history of the 20th century is not one of the brightest episodes of mankind, so it's a bit dificult saying "let me play the axis, I want to change the operation barbarossa" as a German, especially at PBEM-games.
b) Flattops were always fascinating me.
c) I love this genre and theatre, since the days of CAW (C64) and Carrier Force (also C64) back in the 80s. WitP is the best game I have seen so far. Will be interesting, what the future brings in the next generation.

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Post #: 16
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 11:03:19 PM   
Psilva

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 6/17/2006
From: Lisbon, Portugal
Status: offline 		It's the first time I write in here. I'm following this site and playing WITP for a year now against AI (I lost count to the hours I already lost playing this game). I like strategy games specially from WWII since the old Panzer General...

I'm playing CHS Scenario 157 from the Japanese side once I consider it the more difficult. I about to start a game from the allied side on the same scenario. And for the near future I intent to start a PBEM game.

I'm Portuguese living in Lisbon.

Best Regards to all WITP players.

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Post #: 17
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 11:12:18 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ian R

In Japan high school students are taught:

1) the nasty Americans started the war by trying to bully Japan by economic blockade and forced them into war;

2) they lost because they never had a chance of winning given the material disparity (actually true);

3) The nasty Americans fire and atom bombed them when as all they were doing was standing up for themselves and Asians generally against western bullying, and nasty Allied soldiers took no prisoners;

4) They all fought very honourably for the emperor.

[snip]
The experts suggest two reasons, mainly, -

1) an inability to come to grips with a very dishonourable defeat/surrender causing a distortion of history to something involving less loss of face.

2) the fact that there is no excuse for the barabaric atrocities means the only face saving device is to pretend they didn't happen ( one of the reasons Eisenhower ordered that German civilians be forced to tour the concentration camps and help clean them up was to stop this very phenomenon from setting in).

All meaning there is very little interest in serious study of or even reading of popular history of the war, which one expects has a flow on effect in terms of what you spend your leasure time on, including playing simulations like this one.


After the war, McArthur took measures similar to what was done in Europe to make the next generations aware of what they did. From what I recall reading years ago that as Japan became more affluent, a push started to sanitze the textbooks and paint the picture of their involvement in World War II in a better light. They revised the textbooks in the early 80s to say what you say here.

Japan's baby boomers got a very different story from what kids in the last 20 years have learned. Revisionist history is wrong, whether it's covering over Japanese atrocities of World War II, denying Nazi attrocities, or even white washing some of the less noble things the US or UK have done.

At least in the case of Japan, the revisionism has only been going on for the last generation. Still wrong, but not as long lasting.

Bill

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Post #: 18
RE: OT - Curious - 1/15/2007 11:29:04 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Why would Americans want to play Jutland, or Napoleonic Wars, or the Russo-Japanese War? An interest in military history knows few boundaries; one is likely to learn a lot about what happens in or to countries other than one's own. The Pacific theatre of WW2 was the single best example of combined operations (air, sea, land) that has ever occurred in human history. It's simple to see why WITP would appeal to those likely to play military simulations...






"Anyway, this is the Interweb. I don't think we can believe 100% what we read ("SexyLady7685" might be a truck driver looking for his next "victim" after all)."


Tullius, will you please stop tracking my internet communications? Dirty old men need love too!

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fair winds,
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Post #: 19
RE: OT - Curious - 1/16/2007 12:05:24 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		I never answered the real topic...

My father was in the USAAF in the Pacific, so I have an interest there anyway, but I've been interested in World War II as long as I can remember. It started with aircraft, but expanded from there. I started building models at 3, went to my 1st air museum the same year, got my first war game at 5 (Luftwaffe from Avalon Hill), didn't figure out how to play it for a few years after that, started collecting wargames big time in high school...

Probably my favorite wargame was Yaquinto/Avalon Hill's Flattop. I bought both versions as well as CV.

Back before the first IBM PC was released I was thinking about how to make a computer version. When I heard about Uncommon Valor, I knew I needed to play it. I ran out and bought it fairly early. I put off buying WitP for a while because I was very busy with a work project and I knew I'd dive into it when I got it.

I have a strong interest in the war in Europe too. I've read about, built models of, and played games on every facet of the war. I'm more a historian than a gamer though. I don't like real time games (I suck at them). I've tried some of the WW II simulation games, but I end up rattled an nervous after playing for a little while.

Having an engineering background, I'm also interested in the history of the equipment too. World War II had some of the most interesting equipment. Jets all sound the same, but each WW II aircraft sounds different, even with the same engine. Exhaust routing makes a big difference to the sound.

My father deliberately learned the sound of all US aircraft he was around. He figured it could save his life in a war zone if he heard something he didn't recognize. As a result he learned to appreciate the differences between planes and he has passed that on to me.

For some reason I haven't had as much interest in post WW II conflicts. An American fighter's ability to shoot down several enemy over the horizon is definitely a benefit, but it isn't very interesting to study. The pilot doesn't need much piloting skill to be an ace, all he needs is enough targets and know how to work the computers.

Bill

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Post #: 20
RE: OT - Curious - 1/16/2007 1:31:34 AM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		I agree with you Bradforkay, I'd play Jutland (and Napleonics) any time.

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Post #: 21
RE: OT - Curious - 1/16/2007 2:11:16 AM   
Ian R

 

Posts: 3420
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Cammeraygal Country
Status: offline 		I didn't answer the original question either.

Came to witp via interest in military history board wargames starting in the 70s (including the likes of Fast Carriers and SPI's WITP) via Grigsby's Pacwar, which I must have played at least 100 times. ( But in only about one of which was Darwin invaded, although the AI landed in Efate many many times).

Plus we're on the map.

If anything WitP has a bit too much detail for me; I don't have time to put the effort in to play PBEM. The unit scale of pacwar with the witp system and a quicker game would suit. I have done a personal mod where I have divided the number of LSTs etc by 6 or 10, and increased capacity, weapons and durability proportionately, to see if it works out to something more manageable. If so, I will have a look at reducing the number of air groups by combining squadrons, including tank etc battalions in larger unit OOBs, combining CB battalions into "brigades", etc.

Ian



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RE: OT - Curious - 1/16/2007 5:36:53 PM   
murphys35


Posts: 54
Joined: 1/4/2006
From: Prague, Czech Rep.
Status: offline 		Interesting question...

I'm interested in military history (and especially WWII) since my childhood (I'm 25 now). Maybe it was because my father is interested in this too so there was still many WWII books to read in our bookcase. So simple answer could be - I'm just interested in military history.

BUT - I think there is another reason why I'm interested in Pacific theatre. I was 8 y/o when communism collapsed in my country in 1989. Until that time all WWII books or movies were more or less influenced by communist propaganda and cenzorship. And as one the results of this we were told that Pacific theatre was only minor, unimportant battlefield. Only few books were available and majority of them was very bad (in fact, I think there was only one good and historicaly accurate series of books about PTO). After "velvet revolution" in 1989 situation changed and tons of new WWII books became available but mainly focused on ETO history which was also deformed by communists and which is closer to people in Europe. And it took several years until situation was improved and more good books became available.

So my accurate answer, why I'm interested in PTO is that its history was for some time hidden (and more attractive because of that) from me.

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