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RE: 62 Years ago today...........

 
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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/28/2007 3:20:33 PM   
timtom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If there were 50 killed there were probably another 150 wounded. For me it´s also a bit too many to believe for one fight (like the 241 overall).



The citation as quoted by Kilowatts below runs "he killed or wounded about 50" [italics added]. Even the citation frames it as an estimate. The official US Army history is fond of given round numbers in the hundreds of enemy kills from battalion-sized engagements. I don't see how the authors could have gotten these numbers except from unit reports. And I doubt very much that the S-2's of the world would have the time, opportunity, or inclination to go out and do a body count. IOW's these numbers must have been based on the debriefs of the trigger men and I would attach these with about as much accuracy as pilots reporting A2A kills.

There's another curious thing about the citation: "He was alone and exposed to German fire from three sides". [italics added]. I presume you that in order to win the MoH, one or more witnesses will have to be present. So either a) the citation is at fault and Murphy wasn't alone - then what was this person or people doing? Taking notes? b) the award was based purely on Murphy's own statement, in what case we essentially don't know what happened in that Alsace field (one witness is no witnesses, as my methodology lecturer used to say).

Incidentally, in his autobiography, Murphy implies that the incident was less an act of courage than despair - after 18 months of combat his nerves were thoroughly shot and he was just too physically and mentally worn down to much care whether he lived or died. This at the age of 21.



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Post #: 31
RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/28/2007 5:00:12 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Artmiser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

Sorry, but he is only the highest decorated American.
In other armies there were other men, who were decorated by their countries.

Compared to some German soldiers this guy does not look so impressive.
Eg Rudel, Hartmann,
Georg Wirth: destroyed 16 Soviettanks in one battle


http://www.ritterkreuztraeger-1939-45.de/RK-inhalt-Seite.htm



Frank he was a pilot, I believe that was a mission flying one of the JU87 tank destroyers. And while that was a good mission I dont think it is a good comparison to Murphys action. Standing on a burning tank that could blow up at any time using the MG on top to stop a Infantry company on you own, VS flying a stuka through some flak to blow up a colum of tanks. While both brave they are not in the same class.




Well, to do justice to Rudel he did do several forced landings behind Russian lines and always made it back to his own lines. Several of those were during winter and one of them included a very long (tens of miles) trek over snowy steppes with very little clothing and swimming over the Dniestr river. He also landed behind enemy lines several times to pick up stranded pilots there.

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Post #: 32
RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/28/2007 6:37:31 PM   
Big B

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If there were 50 killed there were probably another 150 wounded. For me it´s also a bit too many to believe for one fight (like the 241 overall).



The citation as quoted by Kilowatts below runs "he killed or wounded about 50" [italics added]. Even the citation frames it as an estimate. The official US Army history is fond of given round numbers in the hundreds of enemy kills from battalion-sized engagements. I don't see how the authors could have gotten these numbers except from unit reports. And I doubt very much that the S-2's of the world would have the time, opportunity, or inclination to go out and do a body count. IOW's these numbers must have been based on the debriefs of the trigger men and I would attach these with about as much accuracy as pilots reporting A2A kills.

There's another curious thing about the citation: "He was alone and exposed to German fire from three sides". [italics added]. I presume you that in order to win the MoH, one or more witnesses will have to be present. So either a) the citation is at fault and Murphy wasn't alone - then what was this person or people doing? Taking notes? b) the award was based purely on Murphy's own statement, in what case we essentially don't know what happened in that Alsace field (one witness is no witnesses, as my methodology lecturer used to say).

Incidentally, in his autobiography, Murphy implies that the incident was less an act of courage than despair - after 18 months of combat his nerves were thoroughly shot and he was just too physically and mentally worn down to much care whether he lived or died. This at the age of 21.



All good observations, but remember that though Murphy was alone in his exposed position, his company was still within range to witness his predicament (i.e. they did not pull back miles away - they were in nearby woods and under cover as I recall reading).
The second point is that (IIRC) - his unit held the field after the action, and a casual check of the battlefield after the action should have been no great difficulty once the Germans withdrew. So getting an accurate estimate of the fallen enemy soldiers on the field should have been easy to do.

< Message edited by Big B -- 1/28/2007 6:52:12 PM >

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Post #: 33
RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/28/2007 7:48:35 PM   
m10bob


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Over a period of time, some people begin to have second thoughts and even doubts of past accomplishments.
Some folks say the Holocaust and the Battle of Britain never happened.
If folks feel that way about such recent events, maybe they will be seen as myths in another 100 years.

Murphy's deeds that day were witnessed by both sides.
The attack (as I recall) was at least company strength, and closer to battalion.
The Germans my father fought were not the cowards to lose less than fifty men to call off an attack.
If you won't appreciate Murphy's deeds, don't denigrate those of the Germans either.


"CITATION: 2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone.

Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry.

With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back.
For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted.

He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.

On March 5, 1945, 1st Lieutenant Audie Murphy was called to Nancy, France by order of the 3rd Infantry Division Commander, Major General John "Iron-Mike" O'Daniel. On this day, General O'Daniel presented to 1st Lieutenant Murphy the Distinguished Service Cross and Silver Star.

After 'Iron Mike" pinned the medals on Audie's uniform, he pulled out of his pocket a Medal of Honor. Without giving it to Audie, O'Daniel showed the medal to him and stated that General Alexander Patch, the 7th Army Commander, would soon pin it on Audie during a different ceremony.

He was America's greatest World War II hero, at one point single-handedly holding off 250 German soldiers and six tanks. But despite winning acclaim and stardom, he could never escape the pain and trauma of the conflict that made him a hero. Through clips from his films, newsreel footage and the memories of those who knew him including his sister the heroic but tragic tale of Audie Murphy comes to life."

Biographical Sketch of
AUDIE LEON MURPHY
Courtesy of Richard L. Rodgers
Webmaster of the
Audie L. Murphy Memorial Website


< Message edited by m10bob -- 1/28/2007 8:06:52 PM >


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Post #: 34
RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/28/2007 8:29:15 PM   
timtom


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From: Aarhus, Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Over a period of time, some people begin to have second thoughts and even doubts of past accomplishments.
Some folks say the Holocaust and the Battle of Britain never happened.
If folks feel that way about such recent events, maybe they will be seen as myths in another 100 years.

Murphy's deeds that day were witnessed by both sides.
The attack (as I recall) was at least company strength, and closer to battalion.
The Germans my father fought were not the cowards to lose less than fifty men to call off an attack.
If you won't appreciate Murphy's deeds, don't denigrate those of the Germans either.


"CITATION: 2d Lt. Murphy commanded Company B, which was attacked by 6 tanks and waves of infantry. 2d Lt. Murphy ordered his men to withdraw to prepared positions in a woods, while he remained forward at his command post and continued to give fire directions to the artillery by telephone.

Behind him, to his right, 1 of our tank destroyers received a direct hit and began to burn. Its crew withdrew to the woods. 2d Lt. Murphy continued to direct artillery fire which killed large numbers of the advancing enemy infantry.

With the enemy tanks abreast of his position, 2d Lt. Murphy climbed on the burning tank destroyer, which was in danger of blowing up at any moment, and employed its .50 caliber machine gun against the enemy. He was alone and exposed to German fire from 3 sides, but his deadly fire killed dozens of Germans and caused their infantry attack to waver. The enemy tanks, losing infantry support, began to fall back.
For an hour the Germans tried every available weapon to eliminate 2d Lt. Murphy, but he continued to hold his position and wiped out a squad which was trying to creep up unnoticed on his right flank. Germans reached as close as 10 yards, only to be mowed down by his fire. He received a leg wound, but ignored it and continued the single-handed fight until his ammunition was exhausted.

He then made his way to his company, refused medical attention, and organized the company in a counterattack which forced the Germans to withdraw. His directing of artillery fire wiped out many of the enemy; he killed or wounded about 50. 2d Lt. Murphy's indomitable courage and his refusal to give an inch of ground saved his company from possible encirclement and destruction, and enabled it to hold the woods which had been the enemy's objective.

On March 5, 1945, 1st Lieutenant Audie Murphy was called to Nancy, France by order of the 3rd Infantry Division Commander, Major General John "Iron-Mike" O'Daniel. On this day, General O'Daniel presented to 1st Lieutenant Murphy the Distinguished Service Cross and Silver Star.

After 'Iron Mike" pinned the medals on Audie's uniform, he pulled out of his pocket a Medal of Honor. Without giving it to Audie, O'Daniel showed the medal to him and stated that General Alexander Patch, the 7th Army Commander, would soon pin it on Audie during a different ceremony.

He was America's greatest World War II hero, at one point single-handedly holding off 250 German soldiers and six tanks. But despite winning acclaim and stardom, he could never escape the pain and trauma of the conflict that made him a hero. Through clips from his films, newsreel footage and the memories of those who knew him including his sister the heroic but tragic tale of Audie Murphy comes to life."

Biographical Sketch of
AUDIE LEON MURPHY
Courtesy of Richard L. Rodgers
Webmaster of the
Audie L. Murphy Memorial Website




Not out to denigrate anyone here, Robert. History is about critical enquiry as far as I'm concerned, not apotheosis. With respect I'm not sure the "Audie L. Murphy Memorial Website" can entirely free itself from the suspicion of bias. Honours citations are by their nature celebrations and as an account of what actually happened I would approach them with some causion. The only other account retelling the event that I know of is Murphy's own, which is quite modest. If just half of what we're told took place is true, Murphy displayed extraordinary courage and killed an awful lot of people

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B
All good observations, but remember that though Murphy was alone in his exposed position, his company was still within range to witness his predicament (i.e. they did not pull back miles away - they were in nearby woods and under cover as I recall reading).


If this conjection (?) is true, then others in the company would have been able to fire and/or direct fire onto the oncoming enemy. If so, clearly Murphy then didn't beat off the enemy all on his own. If not, then we'll have to explain why his comrades failed to intervene at this critical junction.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B
The second point is that (IIRC) - his unit held the field after the action, and a casual check of the battlefield after the action should have been no great difficulty once the Germans withdrew. So getting an accurate estimate of the fallen enemy soldiers on the field should have been easy to do.


Providing it was realised that something extraordinary had happened, and providing anyone cared, and providing anyone actually had the opportunity, then yes, it would be an easy thing to do. Whether anyone would want to spend half an hour so so poking round an open field within range of the enemy is another matter.



< Message edited by timtom -- 1/28/2007 8:42:06 PM >


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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/28/2007 8:37:48 PM   
Terminus


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What, you don't think they'd have policed the battlefield and counted the German dead with the live Germans just over the next ridge?

Seriously, I have little doubt that this happened, just as I have no doubt that Anders Lassen deserved his VC...

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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/28/2007 8:41:30 PM   
timtom


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From: Aarhus, Denmark
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Seriously, I have little doubt that this happened, just as I have no doubt that Anders Lassen deserved his VC...


I'm not suggesting it didn't , T


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Post #: 37
RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/28/2007 8:42:41 PM   
Terminus


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I know... No worries...

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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/29/2007 3:34:13 PM   
frank1970


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quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

January 26, 2007

Audie Murphy wounded

On this day, the most decorated man of the war, American Lt. Audie Murphy, is wounded in France.



I don´t hestiate to think Murphy was a good soldier and did achieve his results.
BUT he was not the most decorated man of the war. He was the most decorated GI.

Nothing more to say.


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Post #: 39
RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/29/2007 3:37:19 PM   
Terminus


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Heh... I just realised it should be January 26th, 1945, but that's not what it says in the first post.

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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 1/29/2007 5:24:07 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Being a member of the Royal Canadian Legion I've had the honour to have met many decorated vets from WW2 and Korea and one thing that strikes me is that Commonwealth military personnel rarely win medals compared to US personnel. Just look at the rows upon rows of decorations on US personnel, many of whom have not even seen combat. I went on a military exercise in Grayling, Michigan in 82 and basically everybody in the US units, regardless of rank, had some. More like the Cub/Eagle Scouts achievement badges than medals. The rows upon rows of medals on some guys rival some of the banana republics.

No offence but it strikes me as somewhat excessive.



The US Military awarded ribbons for a lot of things other than combat, so almost everyone qualified for several things like "Theatre Service Awards" and "Good Conduct Awards" and such. I think it was the Marines who started the rumour that the Army Air Corps got a ribbon for getting out of their nice warm bunks in the morning. But if you don't know which ones to look for, the "fruit salad" does give the impression of some "banana republic dictator". Commonwealth awards tended to be more subdued and serious and hard to get---which meant the Yanks could put on a better "show" for the available females. That's probably the real reason for the Tommies irritation. Then of course there are the Russians who like all of their "tin" clanking on their chests at any opportunity. A Soviet Marshal could sound like a blacksmith's shop in a stiff breeze...

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Post #: 41
RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 2/2/2007 9:43:47 AM   
frank1970


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If you only have lousy soldiers, you have to make them feel better by putting medals on them.
Brits and Germans really had to earn theirs!




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Post #: 42
RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 2/2/2007 5:23:29 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

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With the exception of the Air Corps, US troops had to "earn" their "combat decorations" just like anyone else. Actually they were a bit fairer than the Brits about awarding the highest medals to the lower ranks.

And those lousy troops with their inferior weapons still managed to kick the Germans back to the Elbe from starting points like OMAHA beach..., so they must have been doing something right

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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 2/2/2007 5:54:47 PM   
veji1

 

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Tss... Tsss...Mike, take humor the way it is...

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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 2/3/2007 7:28:35 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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"If you only have lousy soldiers, you have to make them feel better by putting medals on them" isn't humor...., it's a slur on the accomplishments and sacrifices of a generation of American Soldiers. Parking a "happy face" behind it doesn't change that.

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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 2/3/2007 8:23:38 AM   
TheElf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

"If you only have lousy soldiers, you have to make them feel better by putting medals on them" isn't humor...., it's a slur on the accomplishments and sacrifices of a generation of American Soldiers. Parking a "happy face" behind it doesn't change that.


Mike...I love you dude....

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RE: 62 Years ago today........... - 2/3/2007 8:45:03 AM   
TheElf


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

If you only have lousy soldiers, you have to make them feel better by putting medals on them.
Brits and Germans really had to earn theirs!





Though Mike covered this for me I can't resist...

Most soldiers don't fight for medals. They fight their buddies next to them. Most people I've met who have been awarded medals for action in combat, including myself, barely think they deserve it, nor do they think of themselves as heroes. But someone did. Audie Murphy seems to fall in this category.

The fact that one army "Seems" to have awarded more medals is certainly debateable. But you should consider how often and for how long that army goes to war. How many of the participants have been involved in any sustained armed conflict since WWII? Maybe that is what happens when in addition to cleaning up your own mess you have to help clean up everyone else's mess too...

The Congressional Medal of Honor has been awarded 3,461 times since 1863. The "Thousand Year Reich" lasted all of what? 12 years?

Medals are used by states to promote the efficiency of their armed forces. Maybe Hitler and Goering should have given out more medals instead of pinning them on each other...

< Message edited by TheElf -- 2/3/2007 9:03:32 AM >


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