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Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM?

 
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Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/5/2007 5:44:33 AM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline 		Hi all

I apologize if this has been answered before, but I am in the process of playing my first PBEM game. I am playing as the Allies and enjoying watching my ships sink all over the Pacific theatre :)

Heres my question though. I know that the IJN player has to quit out of the game before they can open another PBEM turn, and that results are hard coded; ie. replaying the turn over and over will not net different results. However, is there anything to stop the IJN player from changing their moves and essentially replaying thier turn due to undesired results in the replay?

In other words, for example the IJN player moves their carrier force and it is assulted by an unkown carrier force and is completely destroyed. Could they go back to the original file emailed by their opponent, reopen the original file, and change their moves to avoid that situation altogether? This way an entirely new turn result would be generated since their carriers would not move close the now known location of the Allied carriers.

OBVIOUSY, this is merely an example, as my carriers in December of 41 are busy hiding, and by no means do I feel like my opponent is cheating in any way. This just crossed my mind and it seemed too obvious of an exploit to be not addressed in some way. Im sure I have just overlooked some aspect of the game that would not allow you to do this.

Again, this is my first PBEM in this game, so I apologize is this question marks me as the new class nooB. :)

Thanks in advance

Chad
Post #: 1
RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/5/2007 5:47:14 AM   
stldiver


Posts: 724
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: West Palm Beach, USA
Status: offline 		No, that is not possible unless they have your password and can see the results.

Don't worry any mistakes are your own, as mine are mine. :0), Enjoy the fog of war, your not against the AI anymore.

Oh yes for anyone concerned we are not oponents,

< Message edited by stldiver -- 2/5/2007 6:01:31 AM >

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/5/2007 6:06:25 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		In pBEM, the Japanese player sees the replay, then makes their moves. So to go back before the replay and change the Japanese moves would require them to go back before the Allied player turn. This would somehow require the Allied turn to get redone. Not likely to happen without the Allied players knowledge!

Likewise, the Allied player makes their moves and then sends turn to the Japanese. Unless the Allied player knows the Japanese player password, the Allied player cannot see the replay until after the Japanese player has seen the replay and made their moves and sent the turn back to the Allied player. Hence the Allied player also has no way to see the results and change their move either.



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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/5/2007 6:08:04 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		when the ijn player runs the turn, it already has your moves.  If he reruns the turn, he will get the same results.  I suppose he could re-load a saved copy of the turn before he sent it to you, make his moves, and then send it to you.  But you'd be able to see the date on the turn (that it hadn't advanced and that you'd already entered the orders).

Frankly, I've had this happen on -accident- where an oppoenent sent me a prior turn (but it wasn't even the immediatly preceeding turn, it was from a week ago).  In which case, you just punt it back with a quick note that it's a prior turn.

I -seriously- doubt anybody would try to pull a fast one, and send you the same turn twice.  While many folks will scream bloody murder at each over which fighter was actually superior while on these boards, I don't know of a single PBEM game where you had players actively trying to cheat.

I wouldn't worry about it.  But, if you do have somebody like that.  Just drop 'em, it's not worth it.

-F- 

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/5/2007 7:36:17 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		I can confirm that the results will not change if the turn is re-run as Japan. I have had the same turn accidentally sent to me and got the same results as before. We also had a problem with the game crashing when I bombarded a base and had to run the same turn about 5 times to get it to work. Even with minor changes on my part and the same orders on my opponant's part the turn was nearly identical except for the bombardment being cancelled.

The Allies actually have the advantage in PBEM since they can see changes in port/AF colors before issuing their orders. They also seem to get betting intel on what is in ports/AFs just by hovering the mouse over them even if they are out of range of any or their own aircraft. I guess this makes up for SigInt not being as good as in real life.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/5/2007 4:53:47 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline 		Thats what I was missing. The IJN player sees the results BEFORE they make their move. I thought that I emailed them back the save game file for say 12/20/41, they made their move for 12/20/41 and then watched the outcome of the turn. But the IJN player watches the 12/19/41 replay, makes their 12/20/41 move, emailes me their 12/20/41 move and the 12/19/41 replay.

Again, in no way did I think my opponent is cheating, actually even if there was a way to cheat I would never suspect my one and only opponent of doing so. He doesnt need too anyways, it would appear that I am more than happy to give him plenty of targets :) I knew I was missing something about how this all works, as again this is my first PBEM and I am playing as the Allies.

As a side note, Ill just throw in that a human opponent makes the AI look like a 2 year old leading an army. It has proven to be quite . . . interesting :)

Thanks again

Chad

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Post #: 6
RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 11:10:52 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

Posts: 1416
Joined: 4/20/2005
From: Hungary, EU
Status: offline 		Well you CAN cheat. I found it out by acident, when a short circuit has shut down my computer and after reloading I got different (worse tho) results.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 4:31:10 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Cheating is always possible. Both players can save their games without ending the turn thus giving them a reload opp. The Japan player can thus save his turn in a slot without ending........end the turn in another slot and then watch the replay. If he doesn't like what he sees, he can reload the un-ended turn and possibly make enough changes to alter the combat exectution.

Why someone would go to these lengths though has always baffled me. If you want to win above all else at all times....play the AI.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 4:33:26 PM   
Troopsurge

 

Posts: 5
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline 		It's easy to cheat while transferring aircraft by saving the game right before the transfer, and if any aircraft die in the transfer you can reload and try again and hope that no aircraft will die in the new attempt. I think this cheat works in both single player and multiplayer and for both Japs and Allies. By using this cheat repeatedly, you can totally eliminate aircraft losses while transferring aircraft for the entire game.

< Message edited by Troopsurge -- 2/6/2007 4:52:07 PM >

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 4:47:11 PM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Cheating is always possible. Both players can save their games without ending the turn thus giving them a reload opp. The Japan player can thus save his turn in a slot without ending........end the turn in another slot and then watch the replay. If he doesn't like what he sees, he can reload the un-ended turn and possibly make enough changes to alter the combat exectution.

Pretty sure this is not possible. Once you start a game as PBEM, I don't believe you can open it as H2H or HvsComputer. But then I never tried....

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 4:52:08 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		I know what he's saying. Basically, you keep a turn, "just before ending". Send the ended turn. Japan runs it. Makes his moves, sends you completed new turn. But instead of using the new turn, you make changes to the "just before ending" turn, and send it to Japan.

Granted, Japan has to *not* notice that the the turn is actually a replay of the same turn.

To eliminate the situation, either play just "sits" on the correct turn, in this case, Japan with the correct turn, and re-sends the correct turn.

Again, if somebodys going to try to cheat. Opena dialog first, to see if it was a mistake. But if it's a problem, just drop 'em. It's not worth it.

-F-

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 4:54:18 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		actually, on second thought..yes, the Allied player has to send back his completed turn, then the current turn combat is resolved.....the Japan player then sends a copy [of the combat replay) to the Allied player. Yawn.....this is what happens when you have to swear off coffee early in the morning.





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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 4:55:18 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Just goes to show....cheating takes too much effort.

I'd rather conserve brain cells trying to manage Allies in 44.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 8:20:14 PM   
kkoovvoo

 

Posts: 253
Joined: 10/1/2004
From: Slovakia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I know what he's saying. Basically, you keep a turn, "just before ending". Send the ended turn. Japan runs it. Makes his moves, sends you completed new turn. But instead of using the new turn, you make changes to the "just before ending" turn, and send it to Japan.

Granted, Japan has to *not* notice that the the turn is actually a replay of the same turn.



Well, you have to play against complete idiot to succeed with this kind of "ćheating".


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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 8:20:45 PM   
rroberson

 

Posts: 2050
Joined: 5/25/2004
From: Arizona
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Just goes to show....cheating takes too much effort.

I'd rather conserve brain cells trying to manage Allies in 44.



Send more carriers to saipan!

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/6/2007 8:23:54 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		shutup Axis fanboy.....

just you wait.....your going to get it!



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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/7/2007 12:53:15 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Just goes to show....cheating takes too much effort.

I'd rather conserve brain cells trying to manage Allies in 44.


Come 44 you don't need brain cells to manage the Allies. Real simple plan: "Everybody go that way and take that base". Wash, rinse, repeat, and you are in the HI by 45.


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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/7/2007 4:45:50 PM   
Chad Harrison


Posts: 1395
Joined: 4/2/2003
From: Boise, ID - USA
Status: offline 		If you have to go to such great lengths to cheat, I dont see why anyone would. I dont think this game appeals to cheater types. When it takes 4 years to end a game against another human player, that pretty much defeats the purpose of cheating in my opinion.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/7/2007 5:55:50 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		WitP is based upon trust between opponents as well as passwords.
Since I've had 4 opponents for my AAR game, I had to get the original pwd from Wobbly.
I simply gave this and my own password to my new opponents in order to 'bring balance to the force'

I have been saving my turns quite often before ending them though, especially when WitP crashed 3-4 times each day
after some ugly XP patch. Lately I've also been saving the game before transferring air units to my carriers. Sometimes they all end up
as damaged, and sometimes not. Haven't been able to figure our why or how yet, but there's clearly an issue here and the only way to
avoid it is to save before transfer.




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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/7/2007 10:43:52 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

Sometimes they all end up
as damaged, and sometimes not. Haven't been able to figure our why or how yet, but there's clearly an issue here and the only way to
avoid it is to save before transfer.


This was a dubvious "feature" introduced with v1.8.0.4.

If your TF is in a base hex and is docked, it unloads them to "crates" (all damaged). I *believe* that if your CV is "at sea" (even if in port hex), it flys the AC off, and they are *not* damaged at the new base.

Frankly, I think it's annoying. But I believe it was introduced to fix a bug, so it's sort of a necessary evil.

-F-

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/8/2007 12:09:47 AM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline 		had damaged air groups while they are transfered from the CVs at sea to the base.... very annoying.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/8/2007 12:12:44 AM   
String


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From: Estonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

had damaged air groups while they are transfered from the CVs at sea to the base.... very annoying.
you were probably docked.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/8/2007 12:21:53 AM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline 		nah, it happens to me when my CVs WERE AT SEA several hexes away from the base....

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/8/2007 3:34:14 AM   
Accipiter

 

Posts: 120
Joined: 7/22/2004
Status: offline 		I can tell you with certainty that as the Japanese player I have reran a turn after finishing it (and sending it my opponent) as I forgot to save a back-up and wanted to see how many 90+ exp pilots I had. The turn results were not the same at all. One land combat in the first run through got 1:1 odds and lowered a fort level while in the second run through I got 0:1 odds without a fort reduction. An airfield attack in the first run destroyed about 30 a/c on the ground, in the second it was closer to 50. In the first run, I had a Val squadran bomber a port city in Russia (which didn't have this order to begin with) while the second run that a/c group did not fly.

I reran the turn over and over again (about 3 times) but everytime after the first I got the results the same as in the second. I informed my opponent of all of this and since that time the buggy situation hasn't reoccurred (as far as I know). But I haven't reran the turn every time since to be absolutely sure.

My opponent got the same combat results as what I experienced in the combat replay and combat report during the first run. It was quite disconcerting that that could happen.


< Message edited by Accipiter -- 2/8/2007 5:01:13 AM >

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/8/2007 3:52:45 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		I expect the only reason you got a different result was because you had ended the turn. This is probably the action that generates a new 'seed' for the die rolls. Had you not ended the turn and re-run it, you would have gotten the same result. Your opponent did get the same result you got the first time you ran it. In your case, IJ got a different result, but there was no way for him to use it.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/9/2007 3:03:41 AM   
Greco, Thomas A


Posts: 51
Joined: 4/23/2002
From: Irvine Ca
Status: offline
I must be a suspicious and paranoid type, because I'm not convinced. I don't think the average player can cheat, but how about the computer geek that understands the code? Some time ago I had a japanese player who always knew exactly where I would be. Once I took a CV TF and moved it about 600 miles east of Canton and, if spotted by a Glen, I would sprint away in a random direction. It took about a week, but he showed up exactly five hexes away with the KB and turned me into a reef. Later I sailed my two remaining CVs all the way around Oz and he showed up with the little KB exactly 5 hexes away and turned me into another reef. Now I'm not that good and I can get real sloppy, but that made me so suspicious it ruined the game. I have since played some very, very good players but I can usually figure out how I screwed up and if not, I ask. It has not happened since. So I wonder if it is possible to change the code or the game somehow just enough to get the other guys password.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/9/2007 3:38:41 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Greco, Thomas A
So I wonder if it is possible to change the code or the game somehow just enough to get the other guys password.


Well, it's possible to get data from the game save file. Woos has done it for his decoder, and I have a suspicion others may have done it before him. Some may even be in the process of doing it now.

The bottom line is that you have to trust your opponent. The safeguards in place may deter the casual cheater, but those determined to cheat can probably do so if they are that way inclined.

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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/9/2007 9:55:36 AM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		You mention a Glen spotting your force, but how do you know it wasn't spotted by another Glen later? If your answer is that every plane that spots soemthing, is always spotted, and I don't know that for sure myself, then surely that is poor game design, but even so, unless you were real careful, I would think it possible that it was on the intel report and you overlooked it. You may had gone off to an area where you were so sure you wouldn't be spotted that you disregarded the report. I would think that fairly easy to do so as an allied player, because it's easy to lose track of the fact that since your subs don't have recon planes that one might forget from time to time that the IJN does. This would be futher amplified if you had very reliable recon that would spot his ships (surface variety) easily and if then not spotting any you might conclude that he wasn't spotting you. Just throwing a few possibilities at you is all, though cheating is always possible.


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RE: Ability for IJN player to cheat in PBEM? - 2/9/2007 9:09:03 PM   
Greco, Thomas A


Posts: 51
Joined: 4/23/2002
From: Irvine Ca
Status: offline 		I would think that the radar on the CV TFs would provide fairly accurate reports of enemy sout planes, but I am not sure of that. I assume that the intel reports are accurate about being spotted, if not, I'd like to know that.

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