RE: What is your favorite WWII plane?

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 9:36:52 PM

VicKevlar

Posts: 881
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From: Minneapolis, MN
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Ouch!

Ursa MAior=

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Post #: 31

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:16:41 PM

robpost3

Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2006
From: the backwoods of Mass.
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P51
Crew 1,Maximum speed 437 mph, 490 mph for the P 51H
Cruising speed 275 mph, Range 1300 miles with drop tanks, Service ceiling 41,900 feet
Armaments
6 x 0.50 machine guns
10 x zero rail rockets or
2 x 1000 lbs bombs
Engine Merlin V-1650, Horsepower 1,695 hp

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Or do without.
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Post #: 32

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:23:11 PM

Ursa MAior

Posts: 1416
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From: Hungary, EU
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Yes. That is indeed what Wikipedia says on the matter and fwiw I think that is a decent summary. I will note with only passing irony that the same Wikipedia has presented very well researched details on the PaK38, Skoda, and M3 37mm guns that demonstrate that the M3 was substantially superior to the German and Czech weapons at all ranges.

If you insist. I chose wiki cause it matched with what I remembered.

quote:

The Lockheed P-80 "Shooting Star" (based on the XP-80) was America's first production jet fighter and first flew in 1944. Plans had been to produce some 5,000 of the planes, but it was not ready for combat until December 1945, after the war had ended. However, the P-80 (later called the F-80) was used during the Korean War and about 1,700 were eventually built. A lengthened two-
seater F-80 used as a trainer designated the T-33A served with more than 30 Air Forces, and almost 6,000 were built.

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Aerospace/Lockheed_in_Mid-Century/Aero15.htm

Basically says the aircraft ented service in feb 45
http://avions.legendaires.free.fr/p80.php

The Army Air Force planned to build the Shooting Star in large numbers. However, only two of the machines arrived in Italy before the end of the war in Europe, and these were never used in operations. Despite the cessation of hostilities, production was continued on a reduced scale.

http://www.aviation-history.com/lockheed/p80.html

So where is the superiority in 44?

quote:

Such an.. datawonk? Erudite, articulate, and accurate poster of facts in re WW2? I do note that you remain demonstrably incorrect in your claims about 37mm atgs.

State your sources oh bearer of wisdom. I have done it. Oh it was not wiki.

quote:

The best thing about trolls like you is that it takes no time at all for your basic nature to be exposed.

What nature? That idiots like you piss me off? Well in this case you have really exposed me.

quote:

Most people regard the fuel pump as an integral component to the engine. It's a bit like saying "it has nothing to do with the engine it was the fan blades" that failed on ME-262s. If linguistic shell games are the best you can do, you are wholly own3d.

Well if it is allowed for the P-80 and it is not fore the Me? Nice unbiased judgement. As for the engine vs fuel pump you ecell at generalizing when it favours you.

quote:

And, yes, it entered service a year after the ME-262. Did anyone suggest otherwise? I believe the claim was that the ME-262 was the best fighter or at least the best jet of WW2, and neither of those claims are accurate. When you look at specifications, the P-80 was *substantially* superior to the ME-262 in every measurable way.

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Plane for plane, the P-80 was a much better jet than the ME-262. Had the two met in A2A combat in late 1944 -- doable if the USAAF had rushed the P-80 into combat despite hinky engine reliability -- if ME-262s had regularly fought (and if neither were to lose engines mechanically), the P-80 would regularly have won. In late 1944, the P-80 was a better jet. Better thrust to weight ratio, better climb rate, faster speed, greater roll rate, better acceleration, longer range, longer endurance.

How could they have met with 2 test examples produced?

quote:

Fortunately for US fighter jocks, the P-51 and P-47 were so effective at eliminating all German aerial opposition that regardless of the ME-262s presence the Allies could, by mid-1944, establish air supremacy (almost) anywhere in the ETO.

No one questuions the bravery and the skill of the US /UK airmen. Not even their numbers.

quote:

Oddly, despite your claim that I am an easy target, you keep missing. It's about what most people have come to expect of your, errm, "marksmanship."

Check replies hombre. Why is it so difficult to admit that you have missed your mark? next time you will be more careful. As simple as that.

Coup de grace. Bye bye.

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 2/6/2007 10:41:27 PM >

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Post #: 33

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:30:21 PM

ezzler

Posts: 863
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Posting problems getting you down?

not anymore ....
the new easy thread will allow you to join a faction and stick to the action no matter what the evidence.

Don't believe it.
Well take this 14 day ME262 posting test and find yourself saving time reading 15 pages over the next 7 days...

Simply copy Protaganist ot Antagonist into the thread and sign your own name... no rationing of thought required.

Antagonist { the ME 262 was crap }

A] under developed
B] unneccessary use of scarce resources
c] waste of research
d] Not enough trained pilots
e] can't dogfight
f] never achieved anything
g]easily destroyed at landing
h] required extensive maintenence
i] required proper airfields
j] was built by slaves
k] spoilt me 109 production
l] required scarce fuel in abundance
m] could never be built in numbers to turn the tide
n] it was a bomber first stupid
o] needed a LONG runway
p] Had a swastika on the tail
q] The Ta-152 was almost as fast
r] it was the first production jet and all jets suck
s] Low velocty cannon
t] very poor build quality
u] No ejector seat
v] No low altitude ability
w] USA is best .. so it's crap
x] ramjet technology????
y] should have been the go229 instead
z] silly camouflage scheme

OR

Protagonist

A] First production jet
B] Superb bomber killer
C] Fastest non rocket aircraft of WW2
D] very heavy arnament
E] Great colour scheme
F] developing the future
H] only hindered by strategic bombing
I] Jets worked fine with proper maintenence
J] There was NEVER a shortage of Germany aircraft . just pilots
K] There were more ME 109's in 1945 than in 1944 .. why not build 262
L] Highest altitude
M]Could out run pursuers
N] could gain altitude quickly , invaluable in attacking bombers
o] Hitler hated it so it must be good
P] Goering didn't rate it, so it also must be good
Q] Ace pilots got results from it
R] Well times were tough what else would you do ?
S] Could carry bombs as well
T] Led to all other jets
U] was a significant feat considering...
V] looked like a jet
W] swept wing theory
X] Tricycle undercarriage.. solved those dodgy Me 109 taxi problems
W] Wasn't built by slaves but high tech German engineers
x] There were more than enough resources in 1942 when it should have gone into production
Y} only Nazi interference kept it from winning the war by 1944 by ridding the skies of B17's / B24's
Z} Superplanes are just better than boring planes.

Now simply keep posting for or against until all your opponents are too tired and the last one threatens to take their ball home.

(in reply to mdiehl)

Post #: 34

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:32:25 PM

ezzler

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As for Favourite aircrafr. Me 110C. Looked like it would chew you up and was considered a formidable foe until it actually showed up.. shame it was such a dud.

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Post #: 35

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:32:51 PM

robpost3

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Post #: 36

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:37:39 PM

Ursa MAior

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rob
Did it fly in WWII?

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Post #: 37

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:45:07 PM

robpost3

Posts: 465
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From: the backwoods of Mass.
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only on tuesdays!

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"God Help us, and God, come yourself.
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Post #: 38

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:46:11 PM

Marauders

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P-38 Lightning

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:46:15 PM

mdiehl

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quote:

So where is the superiority in 44?

When you get 'round to looking a little deeper you will note that in 1944 the USAAF tested two versions. One in January using the UK engine and one in mid-year using the Allison/GEJ33. While both variants could out turn an ME262, the real kicker was the one powered by the J33. 2 of them were shipped to the UK by year's end for in-theater trials but not deployed to combat owing to the two crashes in your aforementioned post. Two more sent to Italy.

quote:

State your sources oh bearer of wisdom. I have done it. Oh it was not wiki.

The wiki article on the PaK38 and Skoda cites Hogg, which is the source that you (claim to) have used. Given that their article gives a complete citation I'll go with their claim rather than yours. If theirs is incorrect, all you need to do to fix the Wiki article is cite the appropriate page numbers from Hogg and I am sure your corrections will stand.

My source vis the 37mm was given already. Again, Wiki cites my source and also Hogg, and still gives the US gun 50-54mm penetration vs 20 degree sloped armor at 900m. I stand by my claim that you have overstated the PaK38s and Skoda's penetration and understated the M3's penetration at 500m. Anyone who wants to can look it up.

quote:

What nature? That idiots like you piss me off? Well in this case you have really exposed me.

That when you are confronted by facts you call people idiots and you state that their opinons are stupid. What is exposed speaks for itself.

quote:

Well if it is allowed for the P-80 and it is not fore the Me? Nice unbiased judgement. As for the engine vs fuel pump you ecell at generalizing when it favours you.

What is allowed for the P-80? I've stipulated that the fuel pump is part of the engine. Likewise the fan blades are part of the engine. The only one here to suggest anything else has been yourself. I am not sure why you imagine continuing down this line of thought makes your argument any stronger.

quote:

How could they have met with 2 test examples produced?

2 in the UK, 2 in Italy, and some dozens (by July 1945) in the US. Of course, given that the USAAF's policy was to wait until the engine issues had been fully resolved, they *did not* meet in combat. Had the USAAF deemed it necessary to deploy P-80s to some forward base in France -- the only way any P-80 was going to get close to an ME-262 because there was no way any ME-262 had a chance of showing up in English airspace (other than perhaps in captured livery) -- they could have done so.

Had the USAAF done a "rush job" on the P-80 deployment they'd have faced operational loss rates comparable to German pilots and of course needed to deploy a whole new cadre of logistics people for the new type. Not worth the effort considering the plane was not needed. The Allies were easily winning. Adding risk and cost by mixing in the P-80 would not have changed the strategic picture one iota.

Had that happened one would have seen the P-80 -- a faster, more maneuverable plane, winning for the most part, IMO. The P-80 certainly had the firepower to wreck an ME-262 and could have turned with it at high speed and outrun it as well. Naturally, operational losses in the P-80 would have been higher than in Allied piston-engined types, and this more than anything was a good reason not to deploy the P-80.

After all, the P-80 wasn't needed. P-51s, P-47s, late Spitfires, Typhoons, and P-38s were wrecking the ME-262s and killing their pilots in a most satisfactory way.

quote:

Coup de grace. Bye bye.

Coup de grace indeed. It was the only thing you could do for yourself at this point.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/6/2007 11:10:39 PM >

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 40

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:52:52 PM

robpost3

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From: the backwoods of Mass.
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Top Speed, 200m altitude (measured to nearest 5kph):

Fighter WEP top speed Non-WEP top speed WEP power boost percent
Fw190a4 575kph 560kph 8%
P38 565kph 520kph 24%
Spit9 545kph 545kph 2%
P39 540kph 510kph 10%
Bf109F4 530kph 505kph 9%
H81 495kph 480kph 3%
Bf109E4 495kph 475kph 5%
Spit1 485kph 470kph 3%
Spit5 480kph 470kph 3%
H75 465kph 430kph 15%
Bf110C 450kph 435kph 6%
D520 460kph 445kph 8%
Hurri2 445kph 435kph 3%
Hurri1 400kph 395kph 3%

This table is in order of top possible sustained speed on the deck. The Fw190 is the fastest, followed closely by the P38. The Spitfire Mk IX, despite it's huge power reserve, is 30kph slower than the Fw190a4. The slowest fighter is the Hurricane Mk 1.

In general, the British fighters get minimal boost from WEP (at 200m). The American imports to the French have the highest WEP boost (except for the H81), while the D520 is middle-of-the-road. The Axis fighters generally do 8-10%, except for the E model 109. WEP boost will vary with altitude, with WEP boost typically falling off shortly before the engine reaches it's critical altitude for the current supercharger setting.

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Use it up,
Wear it out,
Make do,
Or do without.
"God Help us, and God, come yourself.
Don't send Jesus, this is no place for children."

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Post #: 41

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:55:11 PM

Ursa MAior

Posts: 1416
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From: Hungary, EU
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mdiehl
You are pathetic. Dont answer me ignore is on.

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 2/6/2007 11:08:44 PM >

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Post #: 42

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:58:24 PM

mdiehl

Posts: 5998
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quote:

You are pathetic. Dont answer me ignore is on.

Excellent. Now say: "For the love of God, Montressor!"

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/6/2007 11:12:01 PM >

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 43

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 10:58:29 PM

robpost3

Posts: 465
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From: the backwoods of Mass.
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got to talking to =edge= about WEP on line and he encouraged me to post up
what we talked about, because it does not seem to be all that "common"
knowledge.

The best time to use WEP is for power and not for speed, if indeed you want
to use it wisely. With low power settings it will give you the most delta. I
would suggest anything below corner speed.

The analogy I use is pedaling a bicycle and pumping your legs with your arms
as you ride no hands. Up a hill this can really give you the extra boost to
get you over the hump. But straight and level and going fast you do very
little. Unless you really need the extra 5-8ias in level flight best stay
off it and save it for when you get slow and need to climb, or get fast
again.
( I do not take credit for the above post...just sharing knowledge-RP)

_____________________________

The Yankee Motto:
Use it up,
Wear it out,
Make do,
Or do without.
"God Help us, and God, come yourself.
Don't send Jesus, this is no place for children."

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Post #: 44

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:00:28 PM

robpost3

Posts: 465
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From: the backwoods of Mass.
Status: offline

marauders nice p38 pic

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Use it up,
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Make do,
Or do without.
"God Help us, and God, come yourself.
Don't send Jesus, this is no place for children."

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Post #: 45

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:07:56 PM

mdiehl

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http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/r4-11.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.web-birds.com/8th/339/gun/r4-11.html&h=375&w=500&sz=30&hl=en&start=11&tbnid=s3_rAOgrMrSBwM:&tbnh=98&tbnw=130&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dshoot%2Bdown%2BME-262%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/6/2007 11:22:31 PM >

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Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 46

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:15:20 PM

UndercoverNotChickenSalad

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mdealio u 1deot !!

game, set, match

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:25:38 PM

Ursa MAior

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Undercover

Please leave him be. It is not the first time he has done this. The War in the pacific forums are full with his amok running. He has done this many times in his " crusade against the false axis propaganda" if ther were any.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:30:38 PM

.50Kerry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Undercover

Please leave him be. It is not the first time he has done this. The War in the pacific forums are full with his amok running.�He has done this many times in his " crusade against the false axis propaganda" if ther were any.

There is plenty of Axis Fanboihood going on. The Tiger had mettalurgical deficiency issues that made it LESS effective as time went on, that is engineering reality not fanboi factoid. To hear mitten fan tell it we only won the war because we were too stupid to lose and all the Germans ran out of gas on the same day.....

*whiffle*

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:36:26 PM

Ursa MAior

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fanboyism and outright false propaganda are two different things.

As it is with disagrreing and hate.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:41:43 PM

mdiehl

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Thx Chickensalad. Always do my best to please!

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/6/2007 11:54:01 PM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:45:13 PM

chris0827

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Franz Schall shot down 10 P-51, 1 P-47, 1 B-24, 2 B-17, and 3 lancasters with a Me-262. Kurt Welter shot down 27 mosquitos and 2 four engined . 40 German pilots shot down 5 or more planes with the Me-262. It was hardly crap.

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Post #: 52

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:47:52 PM

mdiehl

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Those numbers are based on German-accorded "confirmed kills" not Allied unit loss records. Actual numbers of Allied a.c. downed probably don't exceed 1/3 of those, judging by the few instances where "confirmed kill" dates and combat areas can be aligned with USAAF unit mission logs.

IIRC best estimates place the actual number of allied a.c. downed (all types) by 262s in the 100-150 range.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/7/2007 12:09:25 AM >

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 53

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:48:10 PM

.50Kerry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chris0827

Franz Schall shot down 10 P-51, 1 P-47, 1 B-24, 2 B-17, and 3 lancasters with a Me-262. Kurt Welter shot down 27 mosquitos and 2 four engined . 40 German pilots shot down 5 or more planes with the Me-262. It was hardly crap.

It was not crap, but it had a very narrow envelope.....

Chuck Yeager summed it up best....

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Post #: 54

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/6/2007 11:57:08 PM

Speedysteve

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Why oh why does this kind of discussion occur guys?

Why can't it be that the recognised qualities of an individual plane or tank be taken by all sides?

Most who know from these forums would say i'm not a fanboy either way. I post the pros and cons of the 262 and then get mdiehl saying well the speed of the 262 was a double-edged sword. In my original post I said that. I list the known pros and cons of the 262 and still someone tries to find a quibble with it..........sheesh.

To say anything is CRAP is wrong. I would say every combat plane of WW2 had it's USE and NICHE IN COMBAT (whether it be ground attack, bomber attack, ship attack, fighter attack). Some planes had MUCH bigger 'niches' than others making them much better planes. Surely it's a grading thing. It's not like a Zero never downed a Corsair etc but the stats prove a lot more Zero's were downed by Corsair's. There are always other mitigating circumstances in combat - experience, numbers, situation, mind set etc but still each weapaon of war has it's virtues and it's pro's and con's

I am in a rare ranting mood tonight and this kind of thing is pisisng me off now. Fanboys and BS rhetoric. Sherman is crap. Tiger is crap. A6M2 is crap. F4F is crap, Bismark is alive....

< Message edited by Speedy -- 2/7/2007 12:12:50 AM >

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Post #: 55

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 12:00:49 AM

Rainerle

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Back in the days of the old BTR forum there was this story of an italian biplane shooting down a P-51; must see if I can find it !

favorite planes:

Ta-152H - did you see that nose !!!
Do-335A - why build with 1 engine when you can have 2

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 12:10:24 AM

ezzler

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Well said...

except of course the Breda 88 really was crap

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Post #: 57

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 2:20:46 AM

Doggie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

Undercover

Please leave him be. It is not the first time he has done this.

Yep, I hear he makes a fool of you on a regular basis. Not surpising seeing as how Rune, Sven, and M'deilh actually know what they're talking about while you haven't a clue.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 8:05:14 AM

Twotribes

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Besides the P-51, I also like the P-39. It looks good to me and was eventually a very good ground attack aircraft.

As to Bombers I like the looks of the B-17. For axis I like the looks of the ME110 ( though wasnt it technically a fighter-bomber?)

Really dont care which is "best" since the question asked was "what is your FAVORITE" WW2 Aircraft. I dont play flying games and seldom have games that used detailed combat and preformance information about aircraft ( most of the ones I have played tend to abstract to some degree air and naval forces) So cant really argue about "best".

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Post #: 59

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 10:05:21 AM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Paul Vebber

SOme stats please comparing the Me262 to say a P-51, or even a La-7 (whose pilot shot down an Me-262 "because he tried to turn with me").

Me-262, like many early jets - got one chance in combat and realied on surprise or formation flying to ensure the adversary did not maneuer to avoid. But if it was such a good fighter, again, why did its doctrine stress NEVER getting into a dogfight with other fighters?

It was certainly a "cool" plane - and very fast, but was sort of the Mig-25 of its era - everyone thought it was far superior than it actually turned out being...

But wasn't "Going straight and fast and not dogfighting" the very essence of energy fighters such as P-47? How is it any different from those planes? Again and again you hear "Maneuver bad, Energy good!" when P-47 is compared to more agile fighters. And the P-47 wasn't one of the greatest accelerating planes either. And yes, I agree that Me262 was an interceptor, not an air superiority fighter. As an interceptor its speed and firepower made it excellent for bomber killing. Getting away with it and landing in the enviorment of late 44/45 was the difficult thing.

(in reply to Paul Vebber)

Post #: 60