RE: What is your favorite WWII plane?

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 4:37:07 PM

UndercoverNotChickenSalad

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Really dont care which is "best" since the question asked was "what is your FAVORITE" WW2 Aircraft.

Who'd ever guess asking a question like that at wargaming bbs would turn into a flamefest

2T, can't you tell when Paul is just trolling for trouble?

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 6:22:01 PM

mdiehl

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quote:

But wasn't "Going straight and fast and not dogfighting" the very essence of energy fighters such as P-47? How is it any different from those planes? Again and again you hear "Maneuver bad, Energy good!" when P-47 is compared to more agile fighters. And the P-47 wasn't one of the greatest accelerating planes either. And yes, I agree that Me262 was an interceptor, not an air superiority fighter. As an interceptor its speed and firepower made it excellent for bomber killing. Getting away with it and landing in the enviorment of late 44/45 was the difficult thing.

Going straight and fast was important except when too fast meant that you had to slow down to effectively hit anything. One of the problems 262 drivers had was that in their initial pass (not slowing down when turning to re-engage but their FIRST PASS) they had as much trouble with deflection shooting as the B-17 defensive gunners had.

With an ME-262 coming in at close to its top speed, you're looking at closing rates of around 300mph (figuring the 262 to be going around 500mph and the B17 generously given 200 mph). That's a closing rate of 440 feet/sec, assuming that the 262 closes on the bombers from six o'clock. Even with rockets, that closing speed was at best a "spray and pray" situation, since the critical radius for most shoot downs was around 300-400 feet.

Engaging B-17s with cannons meant that the 262 had to slow down to speeds where piston engined aircraft could have at them.

The ME262 was a wondrous fast aircraft. A big problem was that its weapons were pre-jet weapons. If the 262 could have been armed with any kind of self-guiding missile it would have been a really effective fighter or interceptor. As it stands, it was the first production line jet, and that's about all it was.

Nice looking jet too, if you don't mind the Star Trek warp-nacelles hanging under each wing.

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Post #: 62

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 6:35:13 PM

hawker

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Dont forget Me-236, rocket propelled fighter

Germans invented Ground to air missiles also.
That technique was so ahead of its time

< Message edited by hawker -- 2/7/2007 6:48:54 PM >

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Post #: 63

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 7:38:08 PM

Rune Iversen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

Dont forget Me-236, rocket propelled fighter

Making up fictous planes?

quote:

Germans invented Ground to air missiles also.
That technique was so ahead of its time

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/7/2007 7:51:58 PM

mdiehl

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The ME-236 was not entirely fictitious. It was a pen and ink drawing of an up-conceptualized ME-163. So it had about the same development status as Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet.

The Germans also invented a variety of pickled cabbage. Their pickled cabbage and their surface to air missile programs were equally effective at downing US bombers.

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Post #: 65

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/8/2007 11:34:28 AM

Rainerle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hawker

Dont forget Me-236, rocket propelled fighter

Germans invented Ground to air missiles also.
That technique was so ahead of its time

You probably juggled the numbers and mean Me-263, developed out of Me-163 by Lippisch.
There never was Me-236, not even ink&paper (source H. Nowarra: Die deutsche Luftr�stung)

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/8/2007 5:51:46 PM

hawker

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Sorry,my mistake.
Me-163 was operational but 263 was only prototype i think.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/8/2007 10:05:14 PM

.50Kerry

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The ME-236 was not entirely fictitious. It was a pen and ink drawing of an up-conceptualized ME-163. So it had about the same development status as Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet.

The Germans also invented a variety of pickled cabbage. Their pickled cabbage and their surface to air missile programs were equally effective at downing US bombers.

I'd argue Sauerkraut would have been more effective....guys died in the bomber crews from ruptured intestines due to gas or so says "dirty little secrets of ww2".....

now had the german bottle rockets has sauerkraut warheads we'd have been doubly in trouble.....

regards,
sven

IS3 ARE BEST TANK EVAH it ARE!

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/8/2007 10:12:47 PM

mdiehl

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I figure a large clay pot full of sauerkraut dropped from a fast moving ME262 in front of a B-17 bomber stream would have at least as much of a chance of hitting and disabling a B-17 as any of the (famously absent) rumoured 3rd Reich unguided "SAMs."

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/19/2007 5:22:59 PM

Rainerle

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ezz

Well said...

except of course the Breda 88 really was crap

Hi, do you know a source for that story ??? I'd like to read how that came to pass.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/20/2007 4:37:38 PM

jimi3

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There's (almost) no more fun than a P-51

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 7:43:42 AM

wesy

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To be contrarian - Ki84 Hayate ("Frank" in Allied nomenclature)

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 3:07:18 PM

Twotribes

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The japanese had some pretty aircraft too, I am just not as familiar with them.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 4:22:11 PM

Sardonic

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You cant convince Mdiehl of anything. He thinks the USA won WW2 singlehanded.
He also has an answer for anything. It is best to ignore him.

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Post #: 74

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 4:23:25 PM

Sardonic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: .50Kerry

quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The ME-236 was not entirely fictitious. It was a pen and ink drawing of an up-conceptualized ME-163. So it had about the same development status as Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet.

The Germans also invented a variety of pickled cabbage. Their pickled cabbage and their surface to air missile programs were equally effective at downing US bombers.

I'd argue Sauerkraut would have been more effective....guys died in the bomber crews from ruptured intestines due to gas or so says "dirty little secrets of ww2".....

now had the german bottle rockets has sauerkraut warheads we'd have been doubly in trouble.....

regards,
sven

IS3 ARE BEST TANK EVAH it ARE!

Are you claiming that Dunnigan is wrong or lying?

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Post #: 75

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 4:40:31 PM

Twotribes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

You cant convince Mdiehl of anything. He thinks the USA won WW2 singlehanded.
He also has an answer for anything. It is best to ignore him.

You havent actually read what he has to say. He as I have acknowledged that with out the USSR and other allies the US would have had a hard time beating Germany. The arguement we have is the Soviet one, there are numerous people on this board that claim the Soviets won the war. This is no more true than the US won the war.

The reality is that the US and Britian provided VERY vital equipment and resources to the Soviets. Without which they would not have been driving the Germans back in 43 and in Berlin in 45.

Are you aware the Soviets didnt have the ability to build dependable comm wire? We provided it in massive amounts, without which the Soviet Artillery Corps would have been a hell of a lot less efficient or effective.

We provided the BULK of the light and medium trucks the soviets used and we provided TONS of other materials, aircraft and tanks.

The US originally planned to make 200 Infantry Divisions and we could have, how ever the failure of Germany in the Soviet Union enabled us to stay with just under 100 and maintain our man power in producing material and equipment for ourselves and our allies ( including the Soviets)

While the Soviets may have held and eventually beaten the Germans with out allied intervention I doubt it, just as I doubt if the Germans had beaten the Soviets that we could have easily invaded Europe. In either case it would have been years before the war ended.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 5:18:38 PM

Sardonic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardonic

You cant convince Mdiehl of anything. He thinks the USA won WW2 singlehanded.
He also has an answer for anything. It is best to ignore him.

You havent actually read what he has to say. He as I have acknowledged that with out the USSR and other allies the US would have had a hard time beating Germany. The arguement we have is the Soviet one, there are numerous people on this board that claim the Soviets won the war. This is no more true than the US won the war.

The reality is that the US and Britian provided VERY vital equipment and resources to the Soviets. Without which they would not have been driving the Germans back in 43 and in Berlin in 45.

Are you aware the Soviets didnt have the ability to build dependable comm wire? We provided it in massive amounts, without which the Soviet Artillery Corps would have been a hell of a lot less efficient or effective.

We provided the BULK of the light and medium trucks the soviets used and we provided TONS of other materials, aircraft and tanks.

The US originally planned to make 200 Infantry Divisions and we could have, how ever the failure of Germany in the Soviet Union enabled us to stay with just under 100 and maintain our man power in producing material and equipment for ourselves and our allies ( including the Soviets)

While the Soviets may have held and eventually beaten the Germans with out allied intervention I doubt it, just as I doubt if the Germans had beaten the Soviets that we could have easily invaded Europe. In either case it would have been years before the war ended.

I have read far more of Mdiehl's USAfanboy posts than I care to.
My source on all things WW2 is James Dunnigan. If it contradicts Mdiehl, then in my opinion,
Mdiehl is WRONG. Your post above is an example of such contradiction.

I am aware that the Soviet Union fought the Germans to a standstill outside Moscow, with little or NO
US help. Yes, the Winter did help a bit. But the USA didnt create it.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 6:01:54 PM

mdiehl

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quote:

You cant convince Mdiehl of anything. He thinks the USA won WW2 singlehanded.
He also has an answer for anything. It is best to ignore him.

Actually, I think the USA, UK+Commonwealths, and USSR won WW2. So much for Sardonic's claims to know wtf I think about anything. If pressed, I would go so far to assert that without the USSR in the fight, the US and Britain could have knocked Germany out of Africa, the Atlantic, Norway, and pretty much any island in the Mediterranean, and then waited until the right moment to nuke Berlin. So without the USSR we're looking at something like a "negotiated settlement." IMO.

In the PTO, the actual events speak for themselves.

Hey Chit... Sardonic. Yer not authorized to be my agent, so just for the record when you claim to know what I think about anything, yer talking off the top of your head. Like most Axis Fanboys, you have a habit of inventing statements that you wish I would make, rather than the statements that I have actually made.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/21/2007 6:17:57 PM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 6:08:59 PM

Sardonic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

You cant convince Mdiehl of anything. He thinks the USA won WW2 singlehanded.
He also has an answer for anything. It is best to ignore him.

Actually, I think the USA, UK+Commonwealths, and USSR won WW2. So much for Sardonic's claims to know wtf I think about anything. If pressed, I would go so far to assert that without the USSR in the fight, the US and Britain could have knocked Germany out of Africa, the Atlantic, Norway, and pretty much any island in the Mediterranean, and then waited until the right moment to nuke Berlin. So without the USSR we're looking at something like a "negotiated settlement." IMO.

In the PTO, the actual events speak for themselves.

Hey Chit... Sardonic. Yer not authorized to be my agent, so just for the record when you claim to know what I think about anything, yer talking off the top of your head. Like most Axis Fanboys, you have a habit of inventing statements that you wish I would make, rather than the statements that I have actually made.

I dont recall offering anything more than an opinion. It is unchanged, regardless of your protests.
After reading in excess of 100+ of your posts on various forums, there can be only one conclusion.
I posted it above.

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Post #: 79

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 6:24:57 PM

mdiehl

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quote:

I dont recall offering anything more than an opinion. It is unchanged, regardless of your protests. After reading in excess of 100+ of your posts on various forums, there can be only one conclusion. I posted it above.

Chittles, you are not authorized to represent my opinion on anything. I don't give a toot about your opinion, all I am suggesting is that you not attribute your opinions to me. So when you say "mdiehl believes..X." you are only saying "for the moment, because it is rhetorically convenient, Sardonic really wishes that mdiehl would say something like ..X."

If you continue, you invite retaliation in kind -- something of the form of "Sardonic truly believes that the world would be better if the Third Reich had won, and he truly believes they would have won if the West had not cheated by sabotaging their special secret program for manufacturing Galaxy Class Starships." The game you are playing is a stupid rhetorical sleight-of-hand that invites nothing but rancor.

If you really want a dirtfight, let's have this conversation in the Saloon so that I can talk to you in the fashion you've earned.

If you want to debate something about WW2 based on actual facts, I'm game. As ever, if anyone really wants to know what I think about anything in particular, all they have to do is to ask me.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/21/2007 6:44:10 PM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 6:34:45 PM

Sardonic

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

quote:

I dont recall offering anything more than an opinion. It is unchanged, regardless of your protests. After reading in excess of 100+ of your posts on various forums, there can be only one conclusion. I posted it above.

Chittles, you are not authorized to represent my opinion on anything. I don't give a toot about your opinion, all I am suggesting is that you not attribute your opinions to me.

If you continue, you invite retaliation in kind -- something of the form of "Sardonic truly believes that the world would be better if the Third Reich had won, and he truly believes they would have won if the West had not cheated by sabotaging their special secret program for manufacturing Galaxy Class Starships." The game you are playing is a stupid rhetorical sleight-of-hand that invites nothing but rancor.

If you really want a dirtfight, let's have this conversation in the Saloon so that I can talk to you in the fashion you've earned.

If you want to debate something about WW2 based on actual facts, I'm game. As ever, if anyone really wants to know what I think about anything in particular, all they have to do is to ask me.

The only rancor I see is yours. I didnt post for your approval. I posted to encourage other posters to disagree
with you, and NOT accept your unwarranted assertions. I do not fear retaliation, since all such will be locked
by Matrix. "Actual facts" are not singular, and some of them you wont like at all.
But we have strayed far from the original poster's topic.

Personally I like the Curtis Jenny.

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 6:43:46 PM

mdiehl

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My reply to you awaits you in the Saloon, Chittles.

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Post #: 82

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 7:42:08 PM

Dixie

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Now, now children. Play nice....

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 10:40:25 PM

hawker

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From: Split,Croatia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mdiehl

The ME-236 was not entirely fictitious. It was a pen and ink drawing of an up-conceptualized ME-163. So it had about the same development status as Wonder Woman's Invisible Jet.

The Germans also invented a variety of pickled cabbage. Their pickled cabbage and their surface to air missile programs were equally effective at downing US bombers.

Maybe,but still Werner von Brown develop rocket which bring Armstrong to Moon

He is German scientist you know.

Albert Einstein make atomic bomb possible
He is German scientist you know

Nikola Tesla,greatest of all,i dont have enough space to describe his inventions.
He is half Croat,half serb

Dont get me wrong,i have nothing against US,quite opposite,my country will be forever grateful to US and president Clinton which helped us when we was invaded.

But,mdiehl try to look at some facts instead of constantly talk bullshit.
Yet,you are quite normal compare to that pathetic excuse for human and insult for mankind rune iversen

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 10:50:02 PM

UndercoverNotChickenSalad

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Oh, m'dealio takes it outside to the saloon

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 10:59:28 PM

mdiehl

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quote:

Maybe,but still Werner von Brown develop rocket which bring Armstrong to Moon
He is German scientist you know.

True. It wasn't, however, the rocket that he wanted to build. The Saturn V was designed around the Lunar Orbit Rendezvous concept, which was itself the brainchild of John Houbolt (who was expanding on the idea of a 1920s German scientist named Hermann Oberth).

quote:

Albert Einstein make atomic bomb possible. He is German scientist you know.

Debatable how German he was. He left Germany for good (for obvious reasons) and ended his career a US Citizen. Einstein's contribution was to draw FDR's attention to the potential of a nuclear weapon, and the potential that the 3rd Reich might try to build one. E=MCC was a useful equation, but there was far more to design & development than that (which is why, of course, the Germans failed to build one, where the US succeeded).

quote:

Nikola Tesla,greatest of all,i dont have enough space to describe his inventions.
He is half Croat,half serb

Agreed. Shall we name all of the NON-American scientists that have done great things? Is there a point to this exercise?

quote:

But,mdiehl try to look at some facts instead of constantly talk bullshit.

I consistently debate on facts. All one has to do is look at the recent conversation about 37mm guns. Somehow the fact that I was insulted a couple of times (and ignored it) and was ultimately demonstrated to be absolutely correct gets lost when, well, 'people like you' decide to derail a discussion.

quote:

Yet,you are quite normal compare to that pathetic excuse for human and insult for mankind rune iversen

Hmm. Well, I've now been compared favorably to Doggie, and to Rune. I suppose that in both circumstances such comparisons have been intended as a kind of backhanded insult, but frankly, I'll take it as a genuine compliment. I think if you tried debating them on the merits of facts, rather than calling them racists as a way of objecting to their observations about some of the drawbacks of German armor and aircraft, you'd find things less heated. But maybe not. Sometimes it *is* fun just to maul a chew-toy.

What nationality was Edward Teller? Another interesting scientist.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/21/2007 11:18:13 PM >

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 11:18:01 PM

mdiehl

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Of course, a really technical fellow would point out that Neal Armstrong went to the moon in a Lunar Module, in whose design and development von Braun made no contribution. The LEM was conceived and developed by a bunch of American engineers at Grumman Aircraft.

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

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RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 11:18:11 PM

hawker

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quote:

Hmm. Well, I've now been compared favorably to Doggie, and to Rune. I suppose that in both circumstances such comparisons have been intended as a kind of backhanded insult, but frankly, I'll take it as a genuine compliment. I think if you tried debating them on the merits of facts, rather than calling them racists as a way of objecting to their observations about some of the drawbacks of German armor and aircraft, you'd find things less heated. But maybe not. Sometimes it *is* fun just to maul a chew-toy.

How many times i must repeat that he start insulting first.
I will accept insults directed to me but,when that directed to my country i cannot accept.
Especially from the guy who know nothing about war.
So,look carefully to his posts before you try to defend that idiot.

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Post #: 88

RE: What is your favorite WWII plane? - 2/21/2007 11:37:11 PM

VicKevlar

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This thread is a hoot!