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Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 12:12:01 AM   
Wargamer39


Posts: 20
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline 		1. Close Combat 2
2. Carriers at War
3. Korsun Pocket
4. Highway to the Reich
5. Uncommon Valor
6. Close Combat 3
7. Europe in Flames (East Front II and West Front)
8. Panzer General 1/2
9. Steel Panthers
10. Age of Rifles

Others I own(ed) and don't make the list : CC IV and V, Sid Meier's Gettysburg, Silent Hunter 2, Hearts of Iron (yuck).
Ones I am keeping my eye on for my next purchase(s): Birth of America, Forge of Freedom, Carriers at War, Close Combat Cross of Iron.

Post #: 1
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 12:25:50 AM   
Knuckles_85


Posts: 581
Joined: 9/1/2002
From: The hell known as Wisconsin
Status: offline 		I know I'm gonna get flamed for this but the original Command and Conquer is what got me into all types of war games (I know it's sacrilege to mention RTS).

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Post #: 2
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 12:58:00 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline 		I would have to include Pacific War in the list. It was THE premier game of the Pacific Theater in WWII for over a dozen years -- an eon in computer time.

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Post #: 3
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 1:51:05 AM   
hawker


Posts: 849
Joined: 6/25/2005
From: Split,Croatia
Status: offline 		Operation Flashpoint also deserve to be on list

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Post #: 4
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 2:08:58 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline 		As this looks like an all-encompassing list (including boardgames) I'll throw in my favorites.

1. Advanced Squad Leader (AH/MMP)
2. Totaler Krieg (Decision Games)
3. Great Battles of the American Civil War (series, SPI/TSR, Richard Berg designer)
4. Up Front (AH)
5. Starship Troopers (original Avalon Hill edition)
6. Carrier Battles (Rising Sun Simulations)
7. Flat Top (AH)
8. Wooden Ships & Iron Men (AH)
9. Modern Naval Battles (3W/Alan Emrich)
10. Ogre/GEV (Steve Jackson Games)

No computer games make the top 10. I doubt they'd make the top 20. Of computer wargames the only ones I thought were fun were Panzer General series, Gary Grig's Pacific War, and Talonsoft's Rising Sun.

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Post #: 5
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 2:19:07 AM   
IronDuke_slith

 

Posts: 1595
Joined: 6/30/2002
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline
RedStorm rising back on the 64 was the first I ever played.

The others in no particular order and chosen for fondness and/or quality are:

Battleground series both napoleonic and ACW
TOAW
WITP
V for victory series
Combat Mission
The Total war series (at least initially)
Take Command series
An old Apache flight sim, forget the exact title.
The Fleet Board series of games - I had 6th, 2nd, 7th and 5th.
Harpoon

If I had the time, I would also play the Highway to the Reich series into the list. I played AA and have HTTR but haven't had the time to do enough to get it into the list.



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RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 2:55:53 AM   
Wargamer39


Posts: 20
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline 		Knuckles 85,
    I attempted RTS but found the lack of control of my units and the "he who clicks fastest wins" mentality a drag. 

MDiehl,
    If I had added boardgames, I would also add Flat top, Submarine and Squad Leader.  No computer games in your top 20?  What are you doing floating around a computer game company forum if you dislike computer games?

Ironduke,
    I totally forgot about the V for Victory series.  What a great series it was.  Maybe Matrix can do a re-mix of that series.?.


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Post #: 7
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 4:00:15 AM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline 		My favs

1) Harpoon
2) Pacific War
3) Carrier Force
4) War In Russia
5) Knights of the Desert

Too many fighting for the last 5 spots and I'm sure I forgot some.

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Post #: 8
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 4:09:17 AM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
Status: offline
quote:

What are you doing floating around a computer game company forum if you dislike computer games?


Who said I dislike computer games? I just said that computer wargames don't make my top 20 list. As WW2 consims go, GGPW is superior to GG-WitP or Uncommon Logistics because they're both horridly flawed as consims but at least GGPW can be played in less time than was required to fight the real war.

Also, in computer games, some of the combat flightsims are pretty good, and the various Sid Meiers' Civ/AlphaCentauri ones are good.

But for quality of design and experience the board games are universally better consims IMO than any computer game. So far. One can always hope for better.



< Message edited by mdiehl -- 2/8/2007 4:22:07 AM >

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Post #: 9
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 4:35:41 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline
quote:

The Fleet Board series of games - I had 6th, 2nd, 7th and 5th.


Those games sucked sooooo bad. An entire squdron of Hrppon armed F-18s had the same attack factor as 2 SS-N-19s...

A CVBG with 4 FFGs was only like 3 columns different than 4 Aegis cruisers, meaning 30%.

And the thing of moving either Air, surface, or subsurface made it by definition imposile to mount a Soviet combined arms attack.

A wrote an article on it in the old wargamer I was so mad at it.

t could have ben soooo good, but it kept digging itself deeper and deeper in to a tactical hole that made it more and more ridiculous.

One of the most incredibly broken combat systems EVER in a game...

My top 10 wargames:

Victory Games Civil War (I wore out two complete sets playing...The most fun to play wargame I've ver played.)
ASL - wargame's crystal meth - I lost my resident opponent in 1990 and got married a year later...
Bruce Harpers World at War (the culmination of the game I cut my wargame teeth on - Third Reich
Harpoon Series (manual and computer)
Steel Panthers Series
Wargame Construction Set Series (Most notable Vol 2 Tanks and Vol 3 Age of Rifles)
Russian Front (Avalon Hill - the most fun Russian front game)
Balance of Power (played on my old Apple IIGS)
SSG Battlefront series (about to be rereleased in updated form)
Conquest of the Aegean (and others in the series)


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Post #: 10
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 5:34:59 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Paul, those games were very popular, so there are a lot of us out there wishing for a resurrection. I would be happy with a complete redo, fixing the problems that you dislike so much. I know many people will suggest the Harpoon series, but Harpoon is more like Carriers At War compared to the Fleet series being WITP/UV. So how about a Cold War UV/WITP? Wouldn't that be fun?

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Post #: 11
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 5:48:23 AM   
Paul Vebber


Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline 		I have ben working on an operational level modern naval game withthe war college - unfortunatley funding we hoped to get appears to have been mired in a reorg...

A bunch of us actually made up a whole new set of rules to play the fleet games using the existing maps and counters, but a totally different set of combat charts and tables and an "action point" system based on accumulating points to execute a 'plan'. The US side had buch of COMCARGRU/CRUDESGRU/COMSUBGRU tracks that llowed them to move battlegroup sizd stacks often. the COmmies had a single Fleet HQ that took while to "build up steam" but then could rampage like all hell broke lose.

It also tracked misiles in "boxes" of 4 - SSMs and SAMS - and properly showed how saturation attacks worked... It also made sub combat a lot different - you alocated subs to areas like Air rather than "moving them hex by hex" since that is how they are really used...

I wish I could find those rules - they were in my old Apple II GS...long gone. I fould one of the combat charts once - based on Capt Hughes Salvo equations...then lost it again. One of these days....

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Post #: 12
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 6:05:20 AM   
General Quarters

 

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline 		Anybody who has the slightest interest in the American Civil War should try Take Command:Second Manassas. You can try their demo at the MadMinuteGames website. It is the closest thing to actually commanding a CW battle I can imagine. Afterwards, it is as if I had been there.

I am also enjoying Forge of Freedom right now. In my judgment, it is the best strategic CW game ever, and the patches keep making it better.

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Post #: 13
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 10:04:11 AM   
Kuokkanen

 

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
Status: offline 		Steel Panthers
SPWAW
MegaMek
MekWars
Classic BattleTech
Battle Isle 3
Total Annihilation

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Post #: 14
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 11:56:26 AM   
Hertston


Posts: 3564
Joined: 8/17/2002
From: Cornwall, UK
Status: offline 		Hmmm... Not necessarily in this order, and my favourite time-eaters historically rather than any claim they are "best"

Close Combat 2
Age of Rifles
Civil War Generals 2
Close Combat 5
Tin Soldiers: Caesar
Take Command: 2nd Manassas
Sid Meier's Gettysburg
Highway to the Reich
HPS' Campaign Gettysburg
WitP (just getting into that)



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Post #: 15
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/8/2007 11:55:19 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Let's see top 10 WARGAMES

1.  Combat Mission series
2.  SPWAW
3.  Master of Magic
4.  Sid Meiers Alpha Centauri
5.  Medieval Total War (origional)
6.  War of the Lance
7.  Mad Minutes 2nd Manassas 
8.  Sid Meiers Civil War series (for multiplayer since MM's doesn't have MP)
9.  Warlords IV & III
10. SPARTAN

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Post #: 16
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/9/2007 12:00:42 AM   
Knuckles_85


Posts: 581
Joined: 9/1/2002
From: The hell known as Wisconsin
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Steel Panthers
SPWAW
MegaMek
MekWars
Classic BattleTech
Battle Isle 3
Total Annihilation

I still play Total Annhilation. The guys who made that game are making another called Supreme Commander. Go to gamespot and down;oad the demo you won't be disappointed

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Post #: 17
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/9/2007 2:57:54 AM   
Skeleton


Posts: 560
Joined: 3/14/2006
Status: offline 		In no particular order;
Civil War Bull Run/TC2M
East Front/West Front/Rising Sun
Shogun Total War
TOAW(CoW and now 3)
WiTP
Waterloo(Strategy First)
and for pure fun without having to think too much; Strategic Command

< Message edited by Marcus the leper -- 2/9/2007 3:13:10 AM >

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Post #: 18
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/9/2007 6:49:06 PM   
UndercoverNotChickenSalad


Posts: 3990
Joined: 2/19/2002
From: Denial Aisle
Status: offline 		 
PPl who think RTS is just a matter of clicking the fastest get 0wN3d.  Its a matter of build order for whatever situation, recon, and anticipating what plan your enemy might be using and countering it or just simply crushing him if he's a n00b.

When ur just barely cranking out ur 8th villager and the enemy is attacking u w/ 27 heavy cavs it aint b/c he clicked faster. 

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Post #: 19
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/9/2007 6:55:04 PM   
robpost3


Posts: 465
Joined: 8/18/2006
From: the backwoods of Mass.
Status: offline 		Best wargame ever-Dirt Bomb Fights when you were a kid

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Wear it out,
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Post #: 20
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/9/2007 10:30:18 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: UndercoverNotChickenSalad

 

When ur just barely cranking out ur 8th villager and the enemy is attacking u w/ 27 heavy cavs it aint b/c he clicked faster. 


Certainly is. RTS games have templates. Once those templates are created everyone uses them, then, it just becomes he who can clik the fastest and get their firstest with the mostest. I see it all the time in Guild Wars as well since the PVP is real time, everybody and their mothers brother copies the #1 ranked guilds template, though copying a template doesn't mean you can clik faster AND think faster. RTS requires both hand agility and mind agility....that's not a wargame well in the sense of what a "true" wargame is and always has been. It's just a clickfest and a brain numbing activity that can cause carpel tunnel and other aches & pains to your wrists/arms/elbows, plus give you massive headaches. ;)
Post #: 21
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/10/2007 5:01:38 PM   
BlackSunshine


Posts: 366
Joined: 11/22/2002
Status: offline 		No one mentioned Panzer General?

That's the one that started it for me.

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Post #: 22
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/10/2007 8:39:33 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		1.  War in the Pacific
2.   Uncommon Valor
3.   SPwaw
4.   Combat Mission- series all three
5.   Birth of America
6.   EU2 and maybe 3
7.   Dominions 3
8.   World at War(a world Divided)
9.   Art of operational warfare
10.  SC2

This is my list!

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Post #: 23
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/10/2007 9:23:40 PM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline 		I wasn't going to respond to this thread because I don't really get much out of top 10 lists, but after reading this thread over time I thought I'd give it a try.

1. VASSAL (Not really a wargame in itself but I play most of my games on the computer with it, so I guess it's my No. 1. Plus I really like converting all my board games to the computer)
2. HPS/Talonsoft Civil War Battles
3. Great Battles of Alex, Hannibal, Caesar
4. Tin Soliders: Alexander and Caesar
5. TOAW (III)
6. Flight Commander II (still the best tactical modern air combat game yet)
7. Russo/German, Anglo/German War
8. Tanks! Wargame Construction Set II (Still a very fun and playable game)
9. Rifles: Wargame Construction Set III
10. SPWAW

There. That wasn't so hard after all.

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Post #: 24
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/10/2007 11:16:38 PM   
Titanwarrior89


Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline 		These list here, that everyone has provided gives the other players a "recommend-check game out list".

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"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

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Post #: 25
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/11/2007 12:00:08 AM   
UndercoverNotChickenSalad


Posts: 3990
Joined: 2/19/2002
From: Denial Aisle
Status: offline 		ravinhood u don't have a clue what ur talking about.  Ppl w/ a template get 0wN3d there's always a counter.  Just b/c some kid rushed u and beat you doesn't mean he's any good at RTS - I'd tear him a new butthole if he tried that **** on me.  And just b/c you blow at RTS doesn't mean they're clickfests. 

< Message edited by UndercoverNotChickenSalad -- 2/11/2007 12:12:54 AM >

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Post #: 26
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/11/2007 12:10:34 AM   
Kevin E. Duguay

 

Posts: 1044
Joined: 4/24/2002
From: Goldsboro, North Carolina
Status: offline 		RISK

Got me started!!


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Post #: 27
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/11/2007 1:27:23 AM   
Wargamer39


Posts: 20
Joined: 9/23/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BlackSunshine

No one mentioned Panzer General?

That's the one that started it for me.




Number 8 on my top 10 was Panzer General. It got it all started. And to those that are doing the whole RTS are great vs no they aren't, this thread is for top 10 lists. Just because I believe RTS are clickfests (I only tried Age of Empires and C&C a few times) remember it is an opinion. True wargamers, IMO, are the ones that can pause between moves to come up with tactics/strategy/supply/etc.

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Post #: 28
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/11/2007 2:39:37 AM   
Krec


Posts: 548
Joined: 3/9/2001
From: SF Bay Area
Status: offline 		1.  Steel Panthers 
2.  EF2  /  WF
3.  UV /  WITP
4.  PG / PG 2
5.  CM Series

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Post #: 29
RE: Top 10 wargames... - 2/11/2007 5:47:13 AM   
Brigz


Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Titanwarrior89

These list here, that everyone has provided gives the other players a "recommend-check game out list".

A good point, but I'm not really recommending the games on my list. I like them. Someone else might not. It's a matter of personal taste. Although, when a game appears on many lists, I take that as a good recommendation.

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