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G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 1:02:47 AM   
Honda


Posts: 953
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Karlovac, Croatia
Status: offline 		I just had to share this one...
Some time ago (when I had free time) i did some Ohka testing only to find it never ever hits anything, at least with experiance levels achievable in the game without editing. Once, I put the Bettys on 100ft and to my amazement they strafed the ships but were not fired upon by flak. Funny but true. To those that don't know, they always attack in formation of 1 or 2 rarely 3 aircraft (ideal for penetrating CAP).

So, today I had a brainstorm. We all know Ohkas don't work. But, if G4M2e is hardcoded to be immune to flak (as I have shown even when strafing and Ohka skipbombing at 100ft) it could be converted to a kami daitai therefore substituting for a faulty Ohka but at an expence of a lost plane. The Betty would effectively become the Ohka. So, I went on to do some tests. And I was so excited, holding my trigger finger over print screen button to catch the glorious moment. Of course, I expected less damage form Betty but it still hits hard with its 2000+ maxload which designates the penetration and the power of the kami plane. After almost 100 attacks I was about to give up, and then it hit! A G4M2e Betty ramed an AK. Wow, I thaught, it's actualy possible! And then, I saw the damage to Sea Devil:
[img=http://img379.imageshack.us/img379/5552/ohkakamidamageuu4.th.gif]
I mean really...What a waste of an idea...

Something has to be done about Ohka. It doesn't have to be a wonderweapon, but it should hit from time to time.

< Message edited by Honda -- 2/23/2007 1:17:01 AM >

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RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 2:20:29 AM   
bbbf

 

Posts: 493
Joined: 7/16/2000
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		That sucks.

I could use spitballs that would do more damage than that!

A Betty alone hitting an AK should just about destroy it.

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(in reply to Honda)
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RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 3:41:14 AM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		It might well be that they utterly suck.  It might be that because you're using them as kamis (not really as intenteded, but definately a clever idea), that because they're not being used in an expected roll, that the computer doesn't know what to do.

Or it could be that you just got a crappy damage roll, and need to run some more tests.  In one of my PBEM games, I had BB-Colorado get hit by Betty-dropped torpedo (I think those are Type-91).  With great trepidation, I opened the turn and checked on Colorado.  5 Sys, 6 float, 3 fires.  No kidding.  We've all seen Type-91s sink ships left and right.  But this time Colorado got very, VERY lucky ("poor" damage roll I guess).

Of course, her luck ran out a week later when 4x IJN CAs came down and put three torps into her.  She rolled over, and that was the end of that.

-F-

< Message edited by Feinder -- 2/23/2007 3:56:32 AM >

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RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 3:44:46 AM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		Posted by Subchaser some time ago:

Rikko units of ww2" by Osamu Tagaya is not the first book you should read on this subject, Tagaya did an outstanding job on covering early war period, but later war was just briefly described. For more detailed stuff look into “The Hagoromo Society of Kamikaze Divine Thunderbolt Corps Survivors: The Cherry blossom Squadrons” by Andrew Adams. Ohara publications 1975. on ohka combat effectiveness - pp 48-79.

Characteristics on paper and in reality proved to be quite different, it was figured out that Okha effective range was exactly 10 times more than altitude of a drop, Maru dai (Rikko + Okha complex) maximum ceiling was 6km, thus Okha effective range was just 60 km. Operational range of G4M2e with attached Okha was 65% of Rikko’s normal (with usual loadout), so the main problem was not how to avoid US fighters during Okha's actual attack, but how to protect Rikkos that close to US fleet. However there were successes, on 12th april 45 Dohi Saburo from Kaigun Jinrai Butai, the first successful Ohka driver, hit DD-733 Mannert L. Abele (ship disintegrated) near Okinawa, out of 10 launched 3 more Jinrai pilots managed to commit 'surimisho' that day, one hit water in just 50 meters away from DMS-27 Jeffers, explosion seriously damaged the ship, 2 others attacked DD-478 Stanly, one was destroyed by flak but another one reached its target, warhead did not exploded immediately, Ohka simply went thru the ship too fast, Kamikaze left huge hole and exploded only when Okha was already deep in water. (sailors from Stanly later told that they did not see that last Okha and thought that it was torpedo launched by Japanese submarine)

Later there were some more victories, but incomparably less Japanese hoped for. The main problem was not in Okha itself but in adequate escorts for Rikkos, % of hits for those Ohkas who had reached the target area was pretty high in comparison with regular kamikaze.

I scanned this scheme for you, gives overall picture of Okha attack







< Message edited by Brady -- 2/23/2007 3:59:39 AM >

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Post #: 4
RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 3:31:48 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

It might well be that they utterly suck.  It might be that because you're using them as kamis (not really as intenteded, but definately a clever idea), that because they're not being used in an expected roll, that the computer doesn't know what to do.

Or it could be that you just got a crappy damage roll, and need to run some more tests.  In one of my PBEM games, I had BB-Colorado get hit by Betty-dropped torpedo (I think those are Type-91).  With great trepidation, I opened the turn and checked on Colorado.  5 Sys, 6 float, 3 fires.  No kidding.  We've all seen Type-91s sink ships left and right.  But this time Colorado got very, VERY lucky ("poor" damage roll I guess).

Of course, her luck ran out a week later when 4x IJN CAs came down and put three torps into her.  She rolled over, and that was the end of that.

-F-


Part of the problem here, at least in the damage done issue, is that I think people are thinking that all hits have to be substantial as though the whole plane hit the boat. I'm wondering if there's such a thing in this game as glancing blows, such that the plane may had fell short of the boat, even if there was no flak, and therefore damaged the ship with pieces hitting after it fell apart in the water.

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 5
RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 3:54:08 PM   
Honda


Posts: 953
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Karlovac, Croatia
Status: offline 		No glancing blows, no duds, no bad dice rolls. I reran the tests today, and when I got a hit it was similar. Again to an AK and again with negligible damage. Just look at Sea Devil: it's a durability 10 vessel! It should be near sinking after being hit with a 2000+ payload. And all it got was 3 fires an maybe 1 sys (if it wasn't around alredy from wear and tear). The point is that not even a workaround works! You get hits by G4M2e Bettys (although rarer then then with conventional kamis) but they do no damage. My message, except "Matrix, please fix Ohka when you have the time for it", is to all Jap players to use G4M2e Bettys as naval search aircraft to allow Emilys to shift to night naval attacks.
Cheers

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Post #: 6
RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 5:31:50 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline 		It's been a while since I looked it (ohka) up in the editor, but I recal it looked prety nasty....

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Obi-wan Kenobi said it best: A lot of the reality we perceive depend on our point of view

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Post #: 7
RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 5:53:58 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		One of my reference books says that 755 were produced.  The first attack was on 21 Mar 45.  The production in the game is 9 per month.  That's obviously wrong, probably by an order of magnitude....

(in reply to Brady)
Post #: 8
RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 6:04:13 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		IIRC its a possible type. I think it was supposed to be '90' not 9.



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RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 7:14:13 PM   
Honda


Posts: 953
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Karlovac, Croatia
Status: offline 		It can be 900. The point is they don't work.

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Post #: 10
RE: G4M2e frustration - 2/23/2007 7:16:52 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		well.....in all the PacWar games i played...I only ever saw 1 Okha hit but that one time was enough.....it sank an Essex class carrier.



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