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RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/3/2007 11:46:51 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Crap lost my post so this will be shorter:
http://www.regiamarina.net/others/fuel/fuel_us.htm Oil prob end 42 until Jan43 and then came French Oil.

Supply. Except for rare materials there wasnt a real problem, the italian factories never really went for wartime production, neither most of them were expanded like in other countries and since major ships werent being made that helped. In many things 43 was the year where best production rates were achieved. In earlier 44 RSI was still received new Semoventi assault guns  despite allies and partisans.

(in reply to Dali)
Post #: 211
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/3/2007 4:00:21 PM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline 		Acording the regiamarin.net page, the fuel was a real problem from january 43. Well, is another issue to correct in the next patch.

Im now making a full re-work of the ship allied OOB. Many errors here. The allies are without capital ships in january 42.
BB Queen Elizabeth out of action in Alexandria (the fact sunk in the port).
BB Malaya also heavy damaged and no operational.
BB Warspite not in the Med until many months after.



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(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 212
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/3/2007 10:31:32 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

I continue testing the 1.21 version and i noticed (with the prod OFF), the axis begin to get low supplies after five months.
The question is: is historical the axis get supply problems in june 42? Would be more historical in january 43? I don't know.


It is definitely not historical for the Axis in North Africa to have supply problems in June '42. That was a time of good supplies for Rommel, allowing him to unleash the blitz that finally took Tobruk. Form that point on, it becomes tricky, because much of the supply he had while chasing the 8th Army to El Alamein was captured fuel, trucks, guns, and ammo. Once these were used up, and Malta was replenished by the Pedestal convoy, Rommel suffered serious supply shortages.

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(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 213
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/3/2007 10:44:49 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

BB Queen Elizabeth out of action in Alexandria (the fact sunk in the port).
  Vailant too if i am reminding right.

quote:

  Acording the regiamarin.net page, the fuel was a real problem from january 43.


I didnt read it that way look at this in last paragraph:
quote:

When the Germans unexpectedly occupied the French base of Toulon on November 27, 1942, where most of the French fleet still afloat was kept, they were able to capture 80,000 tons of oil fuel. Having realized that the Regia Marina could not launch any offensive mission, the Germans transferred "on loan" 60,000 tons of "special" oil fuel thus allowing for the three battleships to be reactivated, along with the cruisers of the 7th and 8th Division, the light cruisers based in Taranto, and, at the end of June, the two battleships Doria and Duilio, while the Cesare was in Trieste being rebuilt.


If the BB Doria and Duilio were reactivated in June which after November42 can only be June43 then the fuel issue wasnt critical at that time, but it was in last months of 42 earlier 43. After the German capture of Toulon they must have sent the 60000t after Jan probably in Feb43.

This place says that controlled fuel spenditure stated around mid 41 since they didnt know what came next  http://digilander.libero.it/lacorsainfinita/guerra2/schede/bellicaitalia.htm read the left note. Btw if the production is ever restarted in this game it says the place of main oil fields in Italia(2ºworld producer in 1842!),Albania and the already known Romania and Germany.



< Message edited by Dili -- 5/3/2007 10:46:43 PM >

(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 214
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/4/2007 7:50:24 PM   
Trueknight

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		Hi everyone...first of all great work! I really like this mod, i always tought that Witp engine could work quite well in the Med.

Then i'm Italian, and i'm trying to get accepted in the Italian Navy Officer School...so it's a plaesure to have a chance to change history.

I hadn't time to test the game properly, even tough i promised a game to a friend of mine since several months now...one day i'll start playing serious.

Anyway ,i found a minor issue, not really important like the supplies question you're talking, but quite relevant; while watching the starting set-up of Axis forces i noticed that the "33 Gruppo BT" is using the P.108B, an italian 4 engine level bomber. I'm not a great expert, and i had never heard of these big guy before, so i did quick google search about it. I found out from different sources (here you have the english wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.108) that the P 108B was fielded from half 1941 but it was used in combat operations only from june 1942, because of a lot of technical problems were found out during first months of training (one of Mussolini's son, Bruno, which was the squadron leader , died in the first training flight).

Additionaly, only a limited number of them were produced in the entire war. The number i found aren't equal, but most of them agree that no more than 30-40 were built. I also found a 163 units somewhere, which i suppose is the number you used for the replacement rate, but i agree with wiki writer to be a unrealistic amount. I think that production of 163 B-17 had took half of the whole italian industrial capacity.
I think you should change entry date and reduce the replacement rate. Also, the unit using it should be called "274 Squadriglia BGR( Bombardamento Grande Raggio, Long Range Bombardment)

That's not a really important question, but we are talking about of one of that proverbial planes that could have a serious impact on the war (or at least on the game) if they weren't "too few and too late".
It's not really a critics, just an advice

My 2 cents, hope i could help.

Keep up the good work


(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 215
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/4/2007 11:20:50 PM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline 		Thanks for you opinion Trueknight.
You right. I know that. The P108B bomber group was one (and not the only one) of my "what if" licence in this mod.
The italians get only a group of this large range bomber (4E) to use, at full strenght, in spite of this plane only was build in very limitated number.
As i said before, is not the only "what if" purpose in my mod.
Another was many more light cruisers and destroyers in the reinforcement pool, and many more groups of "aerosiluranti" to get a more "interesting" (in my opinion) game.

The mod was released in february and to date, i cannot find a single person to be in acordance 100% with my work.
It's normal, and every help/correction/note/comment/.. is always welcome.

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Post #: 216
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/4/2007 11:45:06 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fremen

The mod was released in february and to date, i cannot find a single person to be in acordance 100% with my work.
It's normal, and every help/correction/note/comment/.. is always welcome.


welcome to the world of modding!


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(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 217
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 12:22:38 AM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi Fremen,

Things are looking better and better over time so do not despair. The help of others only corrects a few oversights which is natural with kind of work.

A couple of further thoughts from me:

1.) I would recommend moving Bizerte to where Tunis is currently located and move Tunis either 60 or 120 miles further south. This IMO would place them in the corect geographical locations.

2.) I've noticed when marching a unit from Alexandria tio El Alamaein rather than moving to the west/SW it moves to the SE and then to the west (I.E. To Cairo and then west. According to rail on map it should move directly to the W/SW.

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WitE 2 Tester
WitE Tester
BTR/BoB Tester

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 218
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 8:37:26 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline
quote:

Anyway ,i found a minor issue, not really important like the supplies question you're talking, but quite relevant; while watching the starting set-up of Axis forces i noticed that the "33 Gruppo BT" is using the P.108B, an italian 4 engine level bomber. I'm not a great expert, and i had never heard of these big guy before, so i did quick google search about it. I found out from different sources (here you have the english wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piaggio_P.108) that the P 108B was fielded from half 1941 but it was used in combat operations only from june 1942, because of a lot of technical problems were found out during first months of training (one of Mussolini's son, Bruno, which was the squadron leader , died in the first training flight).


I have already sent that and many more OOB infos to Fremen, if someone wants them drop me a pm. I dont know if he will implement them or not, since he has a different approach to the game with some liberties like a Cicciolina comanding a Sqd/Gruppo?...

In short:
Fiat R25  only 11 were build but in the game they are in several sqd.
Bredas 88... well it's painfull to read their story.. the 3 that were able to fly in hot african conditions one of them had to went straight to not loose speed and fall from the sky.One didnt take the air and the other i dont remember but it wasnt pretty...in the end just after getting out of factory went to be dummy targets in italian airports.
Many italian ships that were able to do minelaying arent now.
Fremen also restricts recon units (since the currently Seenot Do-24 units were rescue units i dont know if he will kill them and put more italian recon units in game).
There is too many things wrong to list. Some by option others, most of them, because there wasnt time yet to look at them.

In following week - maybe at end of it since i have to get more data about german stuff - i'll start to build a device DB mainly for axis, this file will be able to be used for an eventual 1940-1943 game.




< Message edited by Dili -- 5/5/2007 8:46:27 AM >

(in reply to Speedysteve)
Post #: 219
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 9:32:11 AM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

1.) I would recommend moving Bizerte to where Tunis is currently located and move Tunis either 60 or 120 miles further south. This IMO would place them in the corect geographical locations.


Yes. Will be done.

quote:

2.) I've noticed when marching a unit from Alexandria tio El Alamaein rather than moving to the west/SW it moves to the SE and then to the west (I.E. To Cairo and then west. According to rail on map it should move directly to the W/SW.


Yes. I noticed this also and modify the pwhex. I think the 1.2b version had the correct pwhex file.


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Post #: 220
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 10:04:14 AM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

I have already sent that and many more OOB infos to Fremen, if someone wants them drop me a pm. I dont know if he will implement them or not, since he has a different approach to the game with some liberties like a Cicciolina comanding a Sqd/Gruppo?...


This is a great idea.

I apreciate very much your help, Dili, as you know. I continue on checking all this stuff, spending most of my free time.
Many features will be corrected accordingly, others won't. In this moment, i try to focus my work on getting a more balanced game. If you put all the correct Recon units in italian side all the allied submarines become useless.

Dili's suggestions that have been already implemented:

1-To correct OOB of the italian land units. Many new italian divisions have been added in secondary theatres.
2-Italian LCI Motozattera class has been added.
3-British LSI, LCT and LSM classes have been added.

Pending work:

1-Axis OOB of air units.
2-Correct the italian shipbuilders capacity.







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Post #: 221
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 11:14:19 AM   
Trueknight

 

Posts: 21
Joined: 5/4/2007
Status: offline 		Good to hear that! Don't worry...i suppose you can't find anyone to agree with anyone at 100% with anything related to historical interpretation; than this is also supposed to be a game, so it's needed to be balanced some way.And war it's not a balanced thing, most of time.

If I can add another opinion, i'll suggest you to write somewhere in the readme some notes about what and how much you've changed deliberately in your interpretation, so that anyone can set some house rules accordingly.
In this case i'll probably (sadly ) avoid to use the p 108 before the right time.

I think that the common sense of any player is the best way to get along with this "interpretation" issue, and game engine's limits.

By the way, what about the starting options?
Beside the 7th dicember related stuff, shall we use the Allied and Italian sub doctrine? Did the Italians had poor damage&control, like the japanese, so that we need to activate the "Allied Damage&Control " option?

Thank you for your help and attention

(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 222
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 3:50:29 PM   
Zond


Posts: 110
Joined: 3/23/2007
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hello WITM modders & players

I found some nice images of various ships in "Encyclopedia - Weapons of WW2". Managed to extract them, hope they will be useful for adding the depth in art section of the mod

Ariete class:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6135/itarieteclassfd3.png

Cagni class:
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/378/itcagniclassdl2.png

Condotieri class:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8987/itcondotiericlassyx0.png

Gabbiano class:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7845/itgabbianoclassxt8.png

Navigatore class:
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5066/itnavigatoreclassmc5.png

Sirena & Perla class:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9227/itsirenaperlaclassnc5.png

Soldato class:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2503/itsoldatoclassbi8.png

Spica class:
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/379/itspicaclassqu6.png

Turbine class:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1208/itturbineclasscy6.png

Vittorio Veneto:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9462/itvittoriovenetovz7.png

Zara class:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/5522/itzaraclassiz8.png

These are all Italian ships which were available in book. If interested i can put also some German and UK (Allies) ship art.



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Post #: 223
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 4:05:14 PM   
Dixie


Posts: 10303
Joined: 3/10/2006
From: UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Zond

Hello WITM modders & players

I found some nice images of various ships in "Encyclopedia - Weapons of WW2". Managed to extract them, hope they will be useful for adding the depth in art section of the mod

Ariete class:
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/6135/itarieteclassfd3.png

Cagni class:
http://img170.imageshack.us/img170/378/itcagniclassdl2.png

Condotieri class:
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/8987/itcondotiericlassyx0.png

Gabbiano class:
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/7845/itgabbianoclassxt8.png

Navigatore class:
http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5066/itnavigatoreclassmc5.png

Sirena & Perla class:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/9227/itsirenaperlaclassnc5.png

Soldato class:
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/2503/itsoldatoclassbi8.png

Spica class:
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/379/itspicaclassqu6.png

Turbine class:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/1208/itturbineclasscy6.png

Vittorio Veneto:
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9462/itvittoriovenetovz7.png

Zara class:
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/5522/itzaraclassiz8.png

These are all Italian ships which were available in book. If interested i can put also some German and UK (Allies) ship art.




Cool, nice pics. A pic of HMS Medway would be really useful if you have one

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(in reply to Zond)
Post #: 224
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 4:28:33 PM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline 		Thanks Zond, but the fact was just this material i have used to make the art ship side. The scans are from a old encyclopedia i have (italian i think).

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Post #: 225
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/5/2007 7:31:22 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		Nice pics Zond

(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 226
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/11/2007 9:49:16 AM   
Dali

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 4/19/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Fremen,
there´s bug:
http://www.edisk.cz/stahnout-soubor/69434/Ranger.jpg_258.91kB.html

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 227
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/11/2007 10:02:08 AM   
Dali

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 4/19/2007
Status: offline 		Hi,
there´s:
http://www.edisk.cz/stahnout-soubor/50509/F4F_Replacement.jpg_225.64kB.html

No replenisment F4F for carriers US Navy.

(in reply to Dali)
Post #: 228
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/13/2007 4:42:07 PM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline 		Sorry Dali, i cannot see anything jpeg in those links.
Can you simply send me the captures by PM.

Fremen.

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(in reply to Dali)
Post #: 229
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/14/2007 9:59:17 AM   
Dali

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 4/19/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry Dali, i cannot see anything jpeg in those links.
Can you simply send me the captures by PM.

Yes, my stupid server e-disk, hmmm
Send you mail?(BMP errors ar save my game oponents AI 11/43)
My mail:vostrez.dalibor@kunst.cz

(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 230
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/20/2007 5:03:39 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		updating...

< Message edited by Dili -- 5/21/2007 7:09:36 AM >

(in reply to Dali)
Post #: 231
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/23/2007 1:59:51 PM   
Dali

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 4/19/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Fremen,

In WitM mod  Re-2000,2001 its chaos...
My proposal:
Re-2000(FALCO I) I an II series (5 an 12 pieces)= fighter (clasical fighters, long range)
Re-2000C (Catapultabile) III series (10 pieces) = fighter ? about yes...
Re-2001 (FALCO II or ARIETE I  ??) = fighter
Re-2001 OR = Fighter bomber Carrier capable
Re-2001 CN = Night fighter ( No carrier capable, upgrade air units path CR-42 CN  -  Re-2001 CN)
Re-2001 G  = Torpedo bomber or Dive bomber? (or Fighter bomber + torpedo or 250kg bombs??)
Re-2001 H  =  Fighter bomber (added 2x20mm Mauser anti-tank role)
Re-2002 ARIETE II = Fighter bomber
Re-2002S = Fighter , Long range

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 232
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/23/2007 9:23:51 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		In my opinion that is not viable Dali. There is no slots for that and for all missing planes and variation to enter.

This my list:
RO 37
CR 25
Z506B
RO 43
AR 196
RE2000cat
RS 14
Z 501
BV 138
DO 18
DO 24
BV 222
CR 42
G 50
MC 200
RE 2000
MC 202
RE 2001
MC 205
G 55
RE 2005
ME 109G
ME 109?
ME 109G
ME 109
ME 110
ME 110
D 520
FW 190
FW 190
CR42CN
RE2001CN
DO 217 J
DO217 J2
CR42AS
RE 2001CB
RE 2002
ME 210
ME 410
HS 126
HS 129
JU 87 B
JU 87 R/D
JU 87 B
JU 87 R/D
S 79
S 79-T
S 84
S 84-T
BR20M
Z 1007bis
Z 1007bisB
P108B
CA 311
CA 314
BA 65
HE 111 H6
HE 111 H16
HE 177
Ju 88 A4
Ju 88 LT
Ju 88 C6
LO 451
FW 200
JU 290
DO 217
DO 217 ASM
Z 1018
JU 52
S 81
S 82
G 12
ME 323


The repetitions are to diverse versions and would be more or less flexible.



< Message edited by Dili -- 5/24/2007 9:09:44 PM >

(in reply to Dali)
Post #: 233
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/24/2007 3:36:38 PM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline 		The Reggiane it's a very limitated plane in all types, small number build.
In my opinion, only three types are worth to be used, the night fighter, the fighter and the carrier capable (with bomb capacity).


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(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 234
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/24/2007 9:39:42 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		I dont know how night fighting model works in WITP and due to shortage of slots i even tought of using the normal fighter in night fighting units. This more or less corroborated by the poor results of  night fighting units due to diverse reasons - squadriglia split over a large territory, bad integration with AAA early warning system and of course lack of air to air radar.

My RE 2001 data says
Production Start: end 1941 (37 delivered until year end)
Production build:
normal version: 110
night fighting version:114*
                 
200 build in Reggiane Factory at Reggio Emilia 10 CN in Caproni Predapio Factory

*Many of the Night fighting didnt have the   20mm Gun, they had only the engine flame dumpers and other small items to diferentiate from Day fighter.

It's possible they were retroffited with them in field.

Most of them came with a 250kg bomb rack.
An experimental field modification for a 630kg bomb operationaly employed once - the 2 planes with them one failed the target and the other hit the deck of an English aircraft carrier but the bomb didnt exploded.
The 568kph achieved in prototypes was never achieved in production aircrafts due to less material quality of italian made Daimler Benz engines. Max speed was 545kph for production. Spitfire V said only be better maneuvrable above 7000m.

Note: the total numbers made were 237 but the remaining were used as prototypes so a little more than 210 were employed in combat.


< Message edited by Dili -- 5/24/2007 9:43:00 PM >

(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 235
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/25/2007 9:02:29 AM   
Dali

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 4/19/2007
Status: offline 		Hi Dili,
your proposal RG:
Re-2000 cat (hmm float fighter?)
Re-2000 fighter
Re-2001 fighter
Re-2005 fighter
Re-2001 CN night fighter
Re-2001 CB ?
Re-2002 Fighter bomber ?

(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 236
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/25/2007 4:31:55 PM   
kokubokan25


Posts: 1252
Joined: 7/19/2004
From: Iliaca, Spain
Status: offline 		Hey guys, really you think it's necessary so high number of variants of the Re-2000?

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(in reply to Dali)
Post #: 237
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/25/2007 9:22:58 PM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		My list is just to have open options and represents my knowledge at time. Right now i have found for example an ME110 employed in North Africa that had a 30mm gun and i have to check numbers built and it's representativity.


Re2000cat. not a floatplane. 8 were made starting its employment in Dec42 aboard Littorio class BBs. It was a modified Re2000 to recon and defend the BBs from air attacks. The plane would land in terra firma after 3hours air patrol/recon.  This return isnt diferent from Italian Ro43 that dispite being floatplane were seldom if any recovered operationally  (i dont know of any instance in war time). This plane due to catapult release was strenghtned and had inferior performance to Re2000 specially in Range.

Re2000,Re2000 GA: 17 made (12 of them GA-grande autonomia version others modified later) 2000km range/4h30 used since April41 experimentaly and shortly after to escort ship convoys to Africa due to its extended range. Only employed in 1 squadriglia.

Re2001: refered above. I'll have to recheck to find out when production ceased. Forgot to say that many of CNs were initially for CV Aquila and if the Ship went operational more would have been made.

Re2002 Ariete: 147 build  since Nov42 until armistice . Fighter bomber, 1 centreline rack for 650kg, 2x160kg wing racks: Normal max weapon load 650kg usually one 500kg or 250kg+2x160kg bombs. This plane replaced Ju-87D Stukas in BaT squadriglias and were very active against allies in invasion of Sicilia.

Re2005: From May43 29 produced until armistice. It might have been more if factories werent destroyed. German version with diferent propeller went to >710kph

Only Re2002 and 2005 had drop fuel tanks

It's dificult to determine what could have been the real production in 43 in case of no direct attacks against Italy industry.

This is just some data.

< Message edited by Dili -- 5/25/2007 9:27:39 PM >

(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 238
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/25/2007 10:07:36 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: fremen

Hey guys, really you think it's necessary so high number of variants of the Re-2000?


Waste of slots...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to kokubokan25)
Post #: 239
RE: WITM Mod- Released - 5/25/2007 10:12:03 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		If you have better to put there...

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 240
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