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Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/4/2007 2:28:49 PM

Fredk

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Joined: 3/4/2007
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Just lurking on these forums has been an enlightening experience for me and since everyone is so friendly and helpful I thought I might pick your brains on this question. I just started playing serious war games about 3 years ago and my favorites are:

HTTR
COMBAT MISSION
DBWW2: KP, BiN, BiI

Based on those I was wondering if anyone could point out some sort of fantastic game that I'm missing out on? I'm currently thinking about just sucking it up and buying COTA or BF, but I'm not sure if that would be a good investment since I already have HTTR and the 3 DBWW2 games. Is there enough on offer in the sequels to justify the investment? Operation Flashpoint seems like an option as well.

In addition, I have only played these games against the AI due to school/work commitments and I've thought maybe the solution is to commit to sinking some time in to forming some relationships in online communities such as this one and getting some PBEM games going or even heading down to my local game store and trying out some of the table top games (something I've never tried before).

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
FredK

Post #: 1

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/4/2007 3:10:58 PM

Hertston

Posts: 3564
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From: Cornwall, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk

Just lurking on these forums has been an enlightening experience for me and since everyone is so friendly and helpful

Are you sure you aren't thinking of another forum?

Only kidding.

quote:

Based on those I was wondering if anyone could point out some sort of fantastic game that I'm missing out on? I'm currently thinking about just sucking it up and buying COTA or BF, but I'm not sure if that would be a good investment since I already have HTTR and the 3 DBWW2 games. Is there enough on offer in the sequels to justify the investment? Operation Flashpoint seems like an option as well.

Most of them are pretty good. Can't comment on BF as I don't have it but CotA is certainly well worth the purchase whether you have HttR or not assuming, of course, that you like HttR!

I'd suggest you certainly get TAOW3, if you like the DB games you'll like that (probably). Different system, and I wouldn't say which was 'better', but TAOW is certainly more versatile with (literally) hundreds of scenarios from WW1 onwards (ignoring the odd historical experiment). Everything else depends on your particular interests, but assuming you have an interest in the subject matter I think the Tin Soldiers games and Flashpoint Germany are great value for money.

I wouldn't bother with Operation Flashpoint; the sequel Armed Assault has been released in Europe and hits the US in May, I think. ArmA has it's faults, but it will push out Op Flash in both multiplay and mod development.

< Message edited by Hertston -- 3/4/2007 3:25:55 PM >

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 2

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/4/2007 8:33:31 PM

Fredk

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Thanks for the information Hertston, when I said operation flashpoint I was thinking of Flashpoint Germany, just got my wires crossed. Opertation Flashpoint is some sort of FPS, right?

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 3

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/4/2007 8:51:24 PM

JudgeDredd

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I helped beta test Flashpoint Germany and in it's infancy, it had it's problems...but it is an awesome game with alot of nice touches...one of the probs is there are only 4 maps if I recall correctly.

As Hertson mentioned COTA is a awesome game. I like it alot. Is it very different to HTTR? I don't really know because I never had HTTR...but I did have RDOA (Red Devils Over Arnhem - the prequel to HTTR) and COTA has alot of new features over that version. Key things upgraded from HTTR is supply and mixed movement...both very well implemented, although with their limitations, like supply only really being an issue in bigger scenarios and mixed movement being a pain the the royal a$$ when you have 2 trucks with a company of infantry, and the infantry refuse to go up a hill because they have 2 trucks!! The other problem, as you may well know, having played HTTR, is no pbem with COTA...although you can hook up. I'm not sure there's a big following for online play for COTA for 2 reasons...

1. Trying to get people that can meet up at a convenient time
2. The AI is that good, there is little need to play real people

I've never really been an online fan anyway.

However, the game is awesome with a very, very capable AI. I'm sure I'll be chastised for not mentioning other features, but I can't recall them all.

If you want something different, I might suggest Flashpoint Germany.

Good luck.

_____________________________

Alba gu' brath

(in reply to Fredk)

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RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/4/2007 9:03:06 PM

Fredk

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Thanks Dredd. What is this CC i see everyone mentioning in the COTA thread?

edit: Oh, Close Combat - I'm a bonehead.

< Message edited by Fredk -- 3/4/2007 9:19:20 PM >

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

Post #: 5

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/4/2007 10:28:51 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk
In addition, I have only played these games against the AI due to school/work commitments and I've thought maybe the solution is to commit to sinking some time in to forming some relationships in online communities such as this one and getting some PBEM games going or even heading down to my local game store and trying out some of the table top games (something I've never tried before).

PBEM is the way to go, and it does not take any more time than playing solo.

I suggest adding WITP to your short list of games. It's very complex, but once you realize that PBEM is the way to go, next step is to realize WITP is the way to write off your life to PBEM!

_____________________________

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Post #: 6

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/5/2007 12:44:32 AM

ravinhood

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For a bit less than $10 you can get HOI and Crusader Kings on Amazon.com I find Crusader Kings quite enjoyable and different from WWII same ole same ole. It's not only a wargame, but, also a dynasty building game. You can easily sink into the Dynasty building game an almost forget it's also a wargame. Getting the origional HOI isn't that bad of a deal now either. It's patched up to its fullest and so is Crusader Kings.

http://www.amazon.com/Crusader-Kings-Hearts-Iron-Jewel/dp/B000CC5VAU/ref=sr_1_1/104-7462041-4943965?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1173048327&sr=1-1

< Message edited by ravinhood -- 3/5/2007 1:01:28 AM >

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 7

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/5/2007 5:43:28 AM

Fredk

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quote:

2. The AI is that good, there is little need to play real people

Tell me about it - I got off my combat mission kick today and fired up HttR; my rusty skills are recieving a battering.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 8

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/5/2007 6:07:22 AM

cdbeck

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From: Indiana
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Fredk,

I am still kicking around if I am going to buy Battlefront or TOAW III myself. I, too, don't buy a game for PBEM first, I'm a bit antisocial in that respect and like to play the AI. I have heard the BF AI needs some work, at least compared to the Battles in Italy AI. Sometimes I feel it is best to not even mention that you don't PBEM on the forums... as these grognards tend to "bully" you into being their fodder... I keed I keed.

I agree with JudgeDredd that COTA is an excellent pick, can't go wrong there. You seem to be a DB fan, so BF is naturally on your list.

Per Ravinhood's suggestions, I would give a few caveats. Hearts of Iron 1 is a nasty mess that is not worth your time, while Hearts of Iron II: Doomsday is very nice. I'm a huge Paradox Interactive fan, but it takes a special person to love Crusader Kings for all its warts and bugs (I am also a professional Medievalist that specializes in French History). If you don't get a rush when you think of Eleanor of Aquitaine giving birth to Richard the Lionhearted and who you tend to marry Richard to... then the game may not be for you. I also find it ironic that the guy who constantly comments on this forum of his hatred of the COTA "RTS clickfest system" is suggesting two pausable real-time grand strategy games...

Be warned... COTA sucks up your time like a sink, and since it runs in semi-real time like Combat Mission (with self imposed "turn breaks") it will be hours later and you will never notice. Oleg's suggestion for WiTP is a classic, but I feel that is a true grog game, which another forum member aptly put, "it takes less time to fight a real war than play a full game of WiTP." I bought Uncommon Valor and never learned it well enough to brag. Hoping Carriers at War (a nearby SSG release) will be more managable to me. Should never buy "grog" games while writing a Master's thesis or studying for PhD comps...

Son of Montfort

< Message edited by Son_of_Montfort -- 3/5/2007 6:24:20 AM >

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 9

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/5/2007 6:40:13 AM

Fred98

Posts: 4430
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From: Wollondilly, Sydney
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk
I'm currently thinking about just sucking it up and buying COTA or BF,

C.O.T.A has many improvements over HTTR � mostly in the user interface. Its now a much better game

Battlefront looks and feels the same as other games form the DB series. But this is a new game engine are there are some terrific improvements.

Between them they will provide some of the best wargaming you are going to get.

-

_____________________________

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 10

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/6/2007 4:10:53 AM

Fredk

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Thanks for the recommendations everyone.

Re: Oleg_Matruko
I know, I need to get more into PBEM - I have played about 3 or 4 games of CM:BB and they were fun; but I always felt guilty if I couldn't reply for a week or a bit frustrated if my opponent had the same situation. I suppose I just need to relax a bit about it and quit being guilt ridden/angry.

Re: Son_of_Montfort

I worry about WitP a little bit as well because of the time factor. While it would probably give me a real sense of accomplishment to complete a game of the scale of WitP, I would be pretty angry if I lost that much time due because one of us flaked out. Also, I think it might be a bit hardcore for my level of grogness. That being said, I think I'll try a PBEM game of BiI at some point in the near future.

Re: Ravenhill

Thanks for the recommendations on something a bit out of the ordinary (for me at least). I think Crusader Kings is probably a bit too hardcore for me, what about testing the waters with EU3?

quote:

Be warned... COTA sucks up your time like a sink

Yeah, I can see that coming. I think this is probably what I'll end up buying first. With such a novel theatre I feel like I can't go wrong with an improved HttR. Anyway, thanks to all of you my shortlist now looks like this, in no particular order:

CotA
BF
CM:SF
HistWar: Les Grognards
EU:3 (pending some feedback from Ravenhill)

(in reply to Fred98)

Post #: 11

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/6/2007 6:20:37 AM

cdbeck

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From: Indiana
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FredK,

Not sure about Ravinhood, but I can tell you a bit about EU:3. I think it is very good, better than EU:2 for many different reasons. That being said, some people criticize it because the developers decided to remove many historical events from the game, making it much more an alt-history game rather than a directly historical one like EU:2 or Hearts of Iron 2. Some historical things happen, like the beginning of protestantism, the formation of certain states like the United Kingdom, Italy, or Spain, but they do not happen according to date, rather according to data. The protestant reformation can just as easily happen in an Italian city-state as Germany if the conditions are right (need certain decentralization setting on slider, innovation setting on slider, and a theologian in your court). I like the new changes (I do miss some of the historical events, like the War of the Roses, Treaty of Torsedillas, but all in all the game is very interactive and gives you more customization and dynamic power than the predecessor. Still, I have to admit that the EU series is one of my favorites of all time (perhaps over Civilization). Your best bet is to go download the Demo for EU:3. Many things have changed in the patches (not as easy to explore and colonize) but I think the game is excellent!

AFAIK, HistWar and CM:SF are not yet released. Both look very promising and will be on my radar. CM:SF looks like a masterpiece, modern combat is very underdone in the wargaming field. I love Napoleonic stuff, although I found Cossacks to be too irritating to be useful.

I just bought BF and I have to say, it really seems great. I only own KP of the original DB series, and I am finding BF to be right up my alley. I have only yet played Allies Saipan scenerio against the suggested AI, but I ended it with a Draw. What I really like is that I actually had a chance to sit down and finish a scenario in a few hours of play (Saipan is about 17 turns). Granted, I didn't win and I was just sort of experimenting, so my "real" game will last longer, but the battle was dynamic and fun. Market Garden looks great too, and I am really looking forward to sinking into that one. The Gazala AAR on the forum makes it seem appealing, but I hear the AI can be the weakest there. It is well worth the money if you like the DB series. In fact, if Carriers at War doesn't come out by the time I have learned and experienced BF, I will probably invest in BiI and work my way backward.

Hope this helps. If you had to make me chose between COTA, BF, and EU:3, it would be a very hard choice. All are fun and all are rewarding. It really depends on what strikes your mood now and if you want Pausable Real Time or IGOUGO.

Best of luck, let us know what you pick. Maybe we can do a PBEM together, and you can introduce me to the great world of wargames with a human opponent.

Son of Montfort

< Message edited by Son_of_Montfort -- 3/6/2007 9:45:30 AM >

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 12

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/6/2007 8:33:23 AM

Zap

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Son_of _Monfort

There are many of us who prefer playing solitaire for one reason or another. Your not alone I'll guarantee you that.

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RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/6/2007 9:31:49 AM

cdbeck

Posts: 1374
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From: Indiana
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For a second there Zap, I thought you meant the GAME Solitaire... I was thinking, "did I mention Solitaire in my post..."

Pumpkin Ale is clouding my comprehension...

Son of Montfort

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 14

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/6/2007 9:34:37 AM

JudgeDredd

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Fredk

I have EU3 and I think it's absolutely fantastic. I absolutely, 100% applaud Paradox Games for their intuitive games. I also have HoI2 which, again, is fantastic.

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Alba gu' brath

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RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/6/2007 12:54:20 PM

a white rabbit

Posts: 2366
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..toawIII with the BioEd..

..are there any other games ?..

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RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/6/2007 9:40:38 PM

shunwick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: a white rabbit

..toawIII with the BioEd..

..are there any other games ?..

Well, there are rumours ...

But you know what the internet is like.

Best wishes,

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

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Post #: 17

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/6/2007 9:54:30 PM

JudgeDredd

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What is BioEd?

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RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/7/2007 5:00:02 AM

Fredk

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I have come so close to buying TOAW on any number of occasions - the idea of a hex based war game with air cav sounds pretty captivating, however it seems like a game that really divides opinions and call me a sheep, but I'd rather buy something that is universially acclaimed.

I know what you mean about playing solitaire Son_of_Montfort, like I've said I've just barely dabbled with PBEM in the Combat Mission series and never in a "real" grog game. Maybe when my company finally reimbursses me for last month's expense report I'll splurge and buy a couple of game ;)

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

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RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/7/2007 7:47:37 AM

shunwick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

What is BioEd?

The Holy Grail.

It's an equipment editor for TOAW. TOAW3 is brilliant. TOAW3 + BioEd induces x-rated passions.

Best wishes,

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to JudgeDredd)

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RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/7/2007 8:50:35 AM

shunwick

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fredk

I have come so close to buying TOAW on any number of occasions - the idea of a hex based war game with air cav sounds pretty captivating, however it seems like a game that really divides opinions and call me a sheep, but I'd rather buy something that is universially acclaimed.

Fredk,

Mate, you will never find a game that is universally acclaimed. But It all depends on what you are looking for.

TOAW is essentially the ultimate board game - counters, maps, turn and hex based. Command everything from sections to army groups anywhere in the world in the 1900 - 2000 time frame. BioEd now extends the time frame with the ability to add ultra-modern equipment. Actually, BioEd will do more than that - its only limitation is the imagination of the scenario designer. You could go entirely Sci-Fi for example. Like chess, it's easy to get into but difficult to play well. You win campaigns in the same way a real General wins a real military campaign.

I would suggest that games like TOAW, Harpoon, the Steel Panthers series, and WiTP have stood the test of time. These are all games that you can spend years playing.

That's as close to universally acclaimed as you will ever get.

Best wishes,

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 21

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/7/2007 9:33:37 AM

Fredk

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Fair comment Shunwick, TOAW's longevity alone speaks in its favour. Just a bit concerned about the jack of all trades, master of none angle. I suppose I should give it a go at some point regardless.

Tried Steel Panthers III back in the day, couldn't really get into it (albiet, I was a lot younger with a much shorter attention span). Harpoon is class, another one I should probably go back to. Funny, that you mention chess - I am an avid hobby player. I can't see TOAW being quite as easy to get into. However, it isn't as though the DB series was easy to get into initially either - I'll go ahead and add it to my list...like i said, expense check should be coming in any day now. ;)

(in reply to shunwick)

Post #: 22

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/7/2007 6:39:00 PM

cdbeck

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There is an aged TOAW demo on Fileplanet.com that lets you play the Korean scenario (without saving, so it can be brutal to finish the near 50 turns in one go). I guess the major question I would ask, and what made my decision between TOAW and BF, do you want a large scale game where nearly everything is possible and one match can last several sessions or do you want smaller scenarios of about 17-20 turns each on a much more limitied scale (only WWII thus far) that you can finish in a much short amount of time? I picked BF for the smaller scale, but I am thinking about getting either TOAW or BiI in addition because I really like the operational style (BF and KP are the only experience I have had with it). Both are great, I think the DB engine gives you more feedback at hand for your troops and your success in Battle, but TOAW has many more detailed elements (like setting the aggresiveness of a battle) and a much less abstract use of air units.

Hope my comments help. One of my goals in life is to set up a website to review and discuss games, warfare, and Medieval history. So until I do that I will have to contend with the forum style discussion.

Son of Montfort

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 23

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/7/2007 11:51:45 PM

shunwick

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Fredk,

Please don't misunderstand me. I am not trying to convince you to buy TOAW3. As I said, finding a game you like is a personal thing and one man's ceiling is another man's floor. I was merely responding to your comment about TOAW and it's supposed lack of universal acclaim.

There are a couple of points you bring up that I would also like to respond to.

First, I used to play competitive chess in my younger days (before the mind went

) TOAW really is easy to pick up. In terms of game mechanics, it doesn't have anything like the complexity of WiTP, for example. Like chess, it takes practice and thought to play it well.

Second, and this is at least partially connected to the first point, I don't think the Jack of all trades description really applies to TOAW although I understand why it may seem like that.

TOAW basically does what it says on the tin. It models the Operational Level of land warfare and it's rigorous in its application of that and only that. Taking WiTP as an example again, WiTP mixes elements of Strategic Level, Operational Level, and Tactical Level. That's what makes it complex to learn the basic mechanics of the game.

Now, the face of Operational Level planning has remained stable since the introduction of modern warfare (unlike the face of Tactical Level which is constanly changing with each new weapons system).

Innovations have occured at the Operational Level, such as the use of B52s to lend combat support to troops on the ground or Blitzkreig theory, but the actual planning - where do you want to send this battalion? - what do you want them to do when they get there? - hasn't changed. That's why TOAW is able to cover such a large time frame with comfortable authority.

OK. I've rambled a bit.

I'm still not trying to convince you to spend your hard-earned cash on it. Of course, I'm not trying to stop you either. I don't know what I am doing anymore. I need to lie down...

Best wishes,

_____________________________

I love the smell of TOAW in the morning...

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 24

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/8/2007 12:14:55 AM

Fredk

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I appreciate the comments regardless of what you're trying to convince me to do Shunwick ;)

One of the things that looks cool about TAOW to me is the devotion and activity of the fan community - since I've decided to give PBEM a try this could be very important!

(in reply to shunwick)

Post #: 25

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/19/2007 10:39:06 PM

Fredk

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Just wanted to say thanks to everybody who provided advice on this thread - I discovered a long lost $50 gift card to circuit city and EU3 being the only thing available, it won out by default. Arrived in my mail this morning - can't wait to get home and get started. Unforunately thanks to all the excellent advice my shorlist has swollen even further - so there goes my social life and my wallet.

Shortlist:
BF
Harpoon 3
TAAOW III
CotA
CM:SF
HistWar: Les Grognards
WiTP (maybe)

Already Own
EU:3
CM:BO,BB,AK
KP,BiN,BiI
HttR

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 26

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/19/2007 10:45:11 PM

ravinhood

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Don't make the mistake many of us did though Fredk, don't buy so many games you can't decide which one to play and end up playing none of them and spend the rest of your life on forums like this looking for THAT ONE GAME that is never made. lol Play what you have for years. These others will still be around and probably at wayyyy reduced prices.

I actually made a game out of buying games. To see how long I can wait and see how cheaply I can get them for. Buying games is kinda like an addiction to a lot of people. It's not that they really have to have a new game they have that NEED to BUY another game, play it for a day or two or a couple of weeks and their addiction is right back again. NEEED WANT GOTTA HAB NUTER GAME...drool, pant, frothing at the mouth. ;) Don't let this happen to you, it's a horrible sight to behold when you run into a gamer with an addiction. lol

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 27

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/19/2007 10:50:28 PM

Fredk

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Thanks for the advice Ravinhood, exactly what I was really afraid of. So I went back and started playing through the scenarios in BiI again and am enjoying it immensely. Had the circuit city gift card though, so I couldn't resist EU3 - in a few months they'll stop stocking it and the gift card will be worthless to me - unless i want to buy my gf The Sims 2 or something.

I definetly agree with having a few core games that you enjoy to their full depth rather than jumping back and forth. Part of the reason shunwick's posts intrigued me and part of th reason I'm looking into TOAoW/Harpoon/WitP.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 28

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/20/2007 2:50:13 AM

cdbeck

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From: Indiana
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I'm a game addict FredK. Don't listen to the little Angel on your shoulder.

Buying more games = more fun! It is a simple formula! EU3 will keep you happy for a while though, it's good fun. TOAw III will probably not drop in price anytime soon (nor will BF) but they may have a Spring sale (Matrix typically has a Winter Holiday sale, last year WiTP dropped a bit for a while).

I'm currently salivating over Silent Hunter IV. Been playing BF, it's good as well (Market Garden kicks my butt though).

Remember... join the dark side... give into temptation!

Son of Montfort

P.S. Major in History... then you can always rationalize a gaming addiction as "research," especially if you buy wargames!

< Message edited by Son_of_Montfort -- 3/20/2007 2:51:42 AM >

_____________________________

"Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoscet!"
(Kill them all. God will know his own.)

-- Arnaud-Armaury, the Albigensian Crusade

(in reply to Fredk)

Post #: 29

RE: Could you recommend a game for me? - 3/20/2007 5:48:04 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

See what I mean Fredk, above is a prime example of the monster that buying games addiction can do to you. They are never in denial. lol

(in reply to cdbeck)

Post #: 30

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Slitherine

Could you recommend a game for me?