Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

Hey, no thread on this one ??? This is not serious !!!

First, a question :
Should the AI of China be a 2 headed hydra : Communist AIO & Nationalist AIO ?

IMO, no need for 2 AIO.
China is a one and only country, the only difference is that the Communist actions are counted on Russian activities limits.
Well, technically, Communist units are moved by the Russia player too, well this is a problem, but the general strategy for China is still a whole. It could be broken in two parts, but IMO this is not desirable.

So what are the plans for China in WiF FE ?

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A more complete view of southern China. Because the flags have been turned on, some of the city icons are not visible: Nanchang and Wuhan.

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So, where do you setup the Chinese?

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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A more complete view of southern China. Because the flags have been turned on, some of the city icons are not visible: Nanchang and Wuhan.

The city, port, factory, resource icons should be drawn above the flags.
The flags, even if partialy covered, can be guessed at, partly thanks to the neighboring flags. The symbols can't, and not seeing them is very bad.

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

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So, where do you setup the Chinese?

You need to also mention the Japanese forces, so that Chinese setup can be tried.

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ORIGINAL: npilgaard

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ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

So, where do you setup the Chinese?

You need to also mention the Japanese forces, so that Chinese setup can be tried.

Japan:
Setup in China: 1 HQ (Umezu), 5 INF, 2 MIL, 2 GAR, 2(3) FTR2, 2(3) LND2, 2 guns, 2 INF DIVs, 2 warlords (Shanghai, Peking)
If Japan decides to go heavily on China from the start, more units can be brought in.
Other units setup:
Japan: 1 HQ, 1 MIL, 2 MAR, 1 gun, 1 ENG
Manchuria/Korea: 1 HQ, 1 MOT, 1 MIL, 1 GAR, 1 CAV, 2 TERR
Asia/Pacific: 1 INF, 1(2) NAV2, 1 NAV3, 1 MAR DIV

China has 4 warlords (Chungking, Kunming, Lan-Chow, Cheng-Tu)

Btw, I think I once read something about unlimited number of (INF?) DIVs being available, because of the long frontline in China, and the difficulties of defending it with only a limited number of units. Is that (in many ways significant) change going to be implemented?

Regards
Nikolaj

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

The optional rule for unlimited divisions has several constraints.

First, the only divisions that can be Built are those units that are part of the WIF FE counter mix. You can't build 'new' divisions.

Second, only major powers can break down divisions. This is also true in WIF FE because of the counter mix.

Third, when a corps/army is broken down, New divisions are created that are not part of the WIF FE counter mix.

Fourth, corps/armies that are broken down are set aside in a separate Broken Down Pool and are not immediately available to be built again. To make this clear, they do not go into the Force Pool. When (new) divisions are reformed into corps, then the corps are taken from the Broken Down Pool (only).

Fifth, when (new) divisions, that were created by breaking down a corps/army, are destroyed, they go into the Broken Down Pool.

Lastly, when it is possible for two divisions in the Broken Down Pool to be reformed into a corps/army, then that is done. The reformed corps/army is moved into the Force Pool so it can be rebuilt, and the divisons are vaporized into non-existence.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

OT question: Where is the yellow city dot for Wuhan?

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ORIGINAL: Froonp
For setup, I would setup the Nationalists in a defensive line in the mountains from about West of Hengyang / Changsha, to Nanning. This defense will be able to adapt to the Japanese threat because the units are more mobile on this map. Either move a little to the north, to the east, to match the enemy's advance. The important thing here is to prevent the Japanese from 2 things : Reaching Chunging, and cutting the Burma Road west of Kunming. If it is cut east of Kunming, this is not a problem, as the CW oil and / or lend lease will still be able to arrive in Kunming.

I would setup the 2 Nationalist CAV in the mountains between this area and the Communist area (in the mountains between Ichang & Chunking) (What are their name ???). Those 2 CAV would serve to interdict fast moving Japanese troops from dashing into the heartland (the Chungking Plateau). Their mobiliy allow them to press on in the direction that the Japanese will press on.

In the games I played using the old CWiF map, this defense usually managed at hold the Japanese. Here loosing an hex in a bloody battle is less important than in wiF FE, because there are more mountain hexes between the Japanese & Chunking / Kunming.


The only (BIG) problem, is how to setup the Communists.
It would be good to have troops in Yennan & Ankang (1 Nat CAV would be good here), to anchor some form of frontline, and to threaten the would be advancing Japanese (on the Sian-Lanchow Axis) of having their supply cut. But the communist start with few troops.

Defending Sian is a must IMO, but its defenders should withdraw to Tianshui when the Japanese threaten to surround them.
Having the threat of Yennan & Ankang on their side should slow the Japanese down, and allow for a Chinese build up, either in these cities, or in Sining / Lanchow / Tianshui.
The objective of the Communist should be both to survive, and not to loose the last Communist city on the map.

Before the extra cities were added, the Communist was simply killed out of supply as soon as Sian fell, because there was not backup supply source, and the troops were too slow to reach. In that respect, I think that the extra cities were an obligation for the whole Chinese front to mean something.

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Ankang is not Communist controlled and not available for the Communists to set up in.

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ORIGINAL: trees
going way back to Patrice's first post in this thread ... if I recall correctly, any objectives controlled by the Chinese Communists are counted towards the Russian victory total?

If this is so, the ChiComms should be run by the Russian AIO along the lines of an aligned minor. The end of the game can see the ChiComms loosely coordinating with the Russians on a race to Shanghai before the Nationalists, or having Russian bombers groundstriking Japanese targets while Mao approaches a Japanese held Vladivostok, for example.

A key tactic for the Nationalists is to use the Shanghai, Peking and Canton MIL units in out of the way flanks that still need to be covered, and/or stacked with other Nationalist units that can take any loss to the hex, as if these units are killed they can never be rebuilt. Conversely the Chungking MIL needs to be in the center of the action as it is strong and cheap, however with the new map it returns to the map farther away than it used to, so it too should probably be treated more as a reserve type unit. The GARRisons should get killed over and over again in any city in the way of the Japanese.

I think with this map I would be tempted to hold the Pearl ? river in front of Canton to force the Japanese to dig me out, and to keep the Japanese Garrison in Canton (they can't afford to garrison it lightly) in a Chinese ZoC so they won't count towards the anti-PARTisan garrison count. If the Japanese built a Mech division I would abandon this idea though. I would also hold the Chang-sha area, and have a few units to help hold the flanks of Si-An. With both sides I would convert the CAV corps to a pair of cavalry divisions for raids in the mountains, and for dealing with such from the other side. The Japanese ones would be backed by ground support factors and later potentially ATR supply and would be difficult to dislodge from almost anywhere.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: trees
going way back to Patrice's first post in this thread ... if I recall correctly, any objectives controlled by the Chinese Communists are counted towards the Russian victory total?

If this is so, the ChiComms should be run by the Russian AIO along the lines of an aligned minor. The end of the game can see the ChiComms loosely coordinating with the Russians on a race to Shanghai before the Nationalists, or having Russian bombers groundstriking Japanese targets while Mao approaches a Japanese held Vladivostok, for example.

A key tactic for the Nationalists is to use the Shanghai, Peking and Canton MIL units in out of the way flanks that still need to be covered, and/or stacked with other Nationalist units that can take any loss to the hex, as if these units are killed they can never be rebuilt. Conversely the Chungking MIL needs to be in the center of the action as it is strong and cheap, however with the new map it returns to the map farther away than it used to, so it too should probably be treated more as a reserve type unit. The GARRisons should get killed over and over again in any city in the way of the Japanese.

I think with this map I would be tempted to hold the Pearl ? river in front of Canton to force the Japanese to dig me out, and to keep the Japanese Garrison in Canton (they can't afford to garrison it lightly) in a Chinese ZoC so they won't count towards the anti-PARTisan garrison count. If the Japanese built a Mech division I would abandon this idea though. I would also hold the Chang-sha area, and have a few units to help hold the flanks of Si-An. With both sides I would convert the CAV corps to a pair of cavalry divisions for raids in the mountains, and for dealing with such from the other side. The Japanese ones would be backed by ground support factors and later potentially ATR supply and would be difficult to dislodge from almost anywhere.

Thanks for your input. I have virtually nothing for the Chinese AIO, other than what exists in this thread.

I have decided to handle all the Chinese units under a single AIO, rather than split them off and somehow associate them with the USSR AIO. Mostly that has to do with Chinese production and supply, but also because the Nationalists and Commnists have a common front against a common enemy (the Japanese). I will use 2 Field Marshal decision makers (FMs) for the Chinese which will have to coordinate with each other along the common front line.

They will also coordinate with other Allied AIOs through their Foreign Liaisons (FLs). That will handle both coordination with the USSR and the CW & USA which may have units working with the Chinese (e.g., Stilwell).