Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: composer99

Since I've been thinking a bit about other major powers' strategic bombing options, I figured I should bring up China's.

The Chinese will usually rely on lend-lease LND4 for strategic bombing (the two paltry 5-range LND3 with 1 strat factor apiece in their force pools being on the inadequate side). With the WiF base and Planes in Flames units they can get two 9-range LND4 from the US with 6 strat factors and extended range option, and one 11-range LND4 from the USSR with 5 strat factors and ATR capability. Given the small size of the Chinese air force (they only get two other lend-lease bombers, period, if I am not mistaken), it is not unreasonable to suggest that a Chinese side which is not too crippled early on will have all three of these LND4 on the map.

The most likely targets for Chinese strategic bombing are the red factories in Canton & Shanghai. The best forward bases to strike these, if playing with the extra cities, are Chihkiang and Ichang; if these are occupied by the Japanese then Chungking or Kweiyang will have to do.

If the Chinese can muster all three LND4 into a raid that can burn down a factory, I personally see no reason not to try. Unless they do exceptionally well, the Chinese will probably not recapture either city until quite late in a game (if ever!).

Less likely targets (because the Nationalists need to make significant late-war gains to be in range to hit them) are the factories in Manchuria or even Japan.

A secondary purpose of the Chinese strategic air campaign is to tie down Japanese FTR to defending these targets when the Japanese would rather have them near the front or fighting the US/CW/USSR, or to force Japan to decide between committing FTR against some combination of port strikes, naval air, tactical strikes, or strategic raids (or even better, fail to commit the FTR against any of these for fear of losing use of the FTR).

Nice. Thanks.

Do you think you could come up with general criteria for when to perform (or threaten to perform) strategic bombing? It would be nice to make one rule/script that could be used by all major powers. Historically, the Britsh bombed at night and the US during the day. Perhaps that should also be part of the decision making process - along with when to split a strong strategic bombing group so they go after more than 1 target.

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Start

Set switch to Day bombing

If target unprotected go to Bomb

Target is Protected If Escort possible go to Check Odds

Night Bombing Change switch from Day Bombing to Night Bombing

Check Odds

If Odds less than -2 go to Bomb

If Day Bombing go to Night Bombing

If Night Bombing go to End

Bomb

End

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You only do Yes/No using the “Interrogative symbol” in a flow chart.

You need 5 “Interrogative symbols” in your flow chart.

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ORIGINAL: Red Prince

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You only do Yes/No using the “Interrogative symbol” in a flow chart.

You need 5 “Interrogative symbols” in your flow chart.

What exactly is an "Interrogative symbol"?

In my view, while I apologize for bastardizing the proper system, if it is easily understood by the audience, then I don't really care how it is displayed. This, of course, is the opinion of a layman.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

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ORIGINAL: composer99

pauldernyck:

The +.25 per year could be interpreted the same way you have jokingly interpreted +.25 per turn (just not as extreme )

At any rate, the text Extraneous uses is copy/paste from RaW.

I am not aware of any interpretation of this rule other than:
"China's base production multiple increases by .25" (so they would have, using Hitler's War, a base multiple of .5 in 1939, .75 in 1940/41, 1 in 1942/43, and 1.25 in 1944/45)

The actual text of the rule is:

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Option 49: (Hitler's war) Replace notes (b), (d) and (e) of the Production Multiples Table with:
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;
(d) +0.25 to the USSR while Germany and the USSR are at war with each other.
Using this option, major powers no longer receive a bonus for an in supply enemy unit in their home country, and the USSR no longer receives any bonuses based on the cities they control.

But (a), (b), (d), and (e) are additions to the Production Multiple base aren't they?

I believe that these increases only occur during each turn.

Think of it this way if China was at peace and Japan was not in China then China's Production Multiple would be 0.25.

But in 1939 China is at war with Japan and Japan is in China. So China's Production Multiple is a minimum of 0.50 and a maximum of 0.75.


PMB = For 1939 China's Production Multiple Base is 0.25.
A = +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn
B = +0.25 to China each turn


If Japan does not attack China during the turn then China would get:
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;

Production Multiple = PMB + A
China's production multiple during this turn only would be 0.50.


If Japan attacks China during the turn China would get:
(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;

Production Multiple = PMB + A + B
China's production multiple during this turn only would be 0.75.


I don't believe that these increases accumulate to the base each turn.

New PMB = Old PMB + A
Or
New PMB = Old PMB + A + B

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ORIGINAL: WiFFE-RAW-7.0
13.6.3 Production multiples
Each major power has an initial production multiple. These rise progressively during the game. Essentially, this reflects an increasing national industrial output and an increasing share of that output being devoted to military uses. Production multiples are listed on the Production Multiples Chart.

(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 while an in-supply enemy land unit is in your home country (not Siberia, and only UK counts for the CW).
(c) +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 22; +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 34; +0.25 ~ war; +0.25 ~ total war; +0.25 each 6 turns after US entry opt. 34.
(d) +0.25 from 1942 onwards if Minsk or Kiev are Russian controlled.
(e) +0.25 from 1943 onwards if Leningrad, Moscow and Stalingrad are Russian controlled.

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if there is an in supply enemy unit in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase a major power’s production multiple by 0.25 if an enemy unit took part during the turn in a land attack (not overrun) against any friendly land unit (including partisans and notional units) in the major power¹s current home country (an unconquered UK only in the case of the Commonwealth and not Siberia in the case of the USSR).

Increase the USA’s production multiple:
By 0.25 when the US chooses entry option 22 Gear up production.
By 0.25 when the US chooses entry option 34 Pass War Appropriations Bill.
By 0.25 when the US is at war with any Axis major power.
By 0.25 when the US is at war with every Axis major power that has not yet been completely conquered.
By 0.25 on the anniversary (i.e. after every 6 turns) of the turn the US selected entry option 34 Pass War Appropriations Bill.

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EDITED Option 49: (Hitler’s war) Replace Production Multiples Notes listed on the Production Multiples Chart with:
(a) +0.25 if enemy made any land attacks in your home country (not Siberia and only UK counts for the CW) this turn;
(b) +0.25 to China each turn;
(c) +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 22; +0.25 ~ US entry opt. 34; +0.25 ~ war; +0.25 ~ total war; +0.25 each 6 turns after US entry opt. 34.
(d) +0.25 to the USSR while Germany and the USSR are at war with each other.

Using this option, major powers no longer receive a bonus for an in supply enemy unit in their home country, and the USSR no longer receives any bonuses based on the cities they control.

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13.3.2 US entry options
30 Lend lease to USSR - The US, CW and/or France can give or receive 1 build point each per turn to or from the USSR in future turns even if the USSR is neutral (5 each per turn while Germany and the USSR are at war and unlimited while the US is also at war with Germany). You can only choose this option if you have already chosen entry option 19 Resources to USSR. US convoy points can’t be used to transport these build points while the US is a neutral major power.

Option 49: (Hitler’s war) From now until Germany and the Soviet Union are at war, the Soviets pick an extra marker during the entry marker step of each turn. After looking at the marker, they can treat it as a normal marker (offensively or defensively) or stack it face down on any of their useable factory stacks. Once placed they may never be moved even if the hex becomes controlled by another major power.

During their first production step at war with Germany, turn all entry markers on factory stacks face up. These markers are converted into saved build points (AfA option 31 ~ see 13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)) available for production or saved for future turns. If not playing AfA option 31, those extra build points must be spent immediately under the restrictions of 13.6.8 Saving build points (AfA option 31)and any excess after production are lost.

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ORIGINAL: composer99

What does the effect of Hitler's War option on other major powers have to do with its effect on China? Based on the US thread the impression I had was that China's production multiple was the topic at hand.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Here are teh [sic] start lines in southern China for the same time period. This also shows the addition of the "river road" from Nanking to Nanchang, Wuhan, and Ichang. Data by Patrice, included in version 10.00.

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9. Resources to China (Ja)
Allied major powers can’t give resources to China until you choose this entry option. In future turns, each major power can give up to 5 resources a turn (no limit once that major power is at war with Japan). The US can use its convoy points to transport resources to China from the USA.

Choosing this entry option opens the Burma Road. It then counts as a railway for moving resources and build points (only) into China (not out). The scenario information (see 24 Re-open Burma Road) will tell you whether the Burma Road starts the game open or closed.

17. Lend lease to China (Ja) (There is a 50% chance that a USA (Ja) entry pool chit will be moved to the USA (Ja) tension pool)
Each Allied major power can give up to 5 build points a turn to China (see 13.6.4 Lend lease). The US can use its convoy points to transport build points to China from the USA. This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen USA entry option 9 Resources to China.

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ORIGINAL: composer99

The US can lend a resource from the Philippines. If build points is what the Allies want to lend, let the Commonwealth lend them from India (1 sea area) or Australia (3 sea area) and if the CW wants to keep up its production the US can lend the CW build points to compensate.

Incidentally, the convoy route from the US to China is long:
- West Coast
- Mendocino
- Hawai'ian Islands (or Christmas Islands)
- Central Pacific (or The Marshalls)
- Japanese Coast (or The Marianas)
- China Sea (or Bismarck Sea)
- South China Sea

For 7 sea areas to ship to Indochina, or 8 sea areas if you want to extend the line further to Bay of Bengal to ship via Burma.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Question: Would Vichy France be required to honor a French trade agreement to China if it were made before Vichy was established?

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.

You will note the only access to rail lines (and the Burma road) to China go through the major ports of Hanoi, French Indo-China and Rangoon, Burma.

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

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ORIGINAL: paulderynck

Doesn't have to go to a major port. It can arrive at a minor port as long as there is a rail and/or road connection from there to a factory if it's a resource, or to a city if it's a BP.

You will note the only access to rail lines (and the Burma road) to China go through the major ports of Hanoi, French Indo-China and Rangoon, Burma.

And as you noted about lending the resource from India, it would go through the Bay of Bengal and land at...?

Oh yeah - Rangoon. And you will note Rangoon is a minor port... eventually.

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ORIGINAL: Centuur

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Question: Would Vichy France be required to honor a French trade agreement to China if it were made before Vichy was established?

RAW:
5. Lending Stage
In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn.

The answer is therefore "no", since Vichy is on the Axis side and China is on the allied side.

RAW: (5)
You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power.

RAW: (17.1)
Vichy France is a neutral major power run by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government.

Since Vichy France is neutral, he can't give resources to China.

RAW:
Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4).

All this means that a trade agreement between China and Vichy doesn't exist, the moment Vichy France is installed. There is, however, a trade agreement with the Free French and they should honor it (or cancel it if they want to). They can, because installment of Vichy comes after the production phase and before the lending resource stage of the next turn.

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In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4) to another major power on the same side this turn. [Emphasis mine.]

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Two major powers at war can agree to come to peace on any terms mutually acceptable (except for transferring units).

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Then this is what occurs.

In this case I am assuming Vichy, France controls French Indo-china.

Each turn the USA wants to give resources or Lend lease BP to China (a major power cannot give or receive resources and BP to the same major power in the same turn).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

During The Lending Resource Stage
The USA declares if they are giving resources or Lend leasing BP to China (but not how many).

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous
During One of the Impulses
If the Japanese want to perform 13.3.3 US entry action ~ 34 Japan executes a search and seizure:
1) They must at some time during one of the Impulses sail a SCS, CV, or SUB into the Bay of Bengal sea zone. For each search and seizure they wish to attempt.
2) These ships and/or submarines must stay at sea until the next turn.
During The End of Turn Stage
Production step
The Japanese can now execute its search and seizures.
Any resources or BP not seized will arrive in Rangoon, Burma to be moved by rail (or the Burma Road) to a factory for resources or a city for BP in China.

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ORIGINAL: Extraneous
The next turn
The ships and/or submarines that stayed at sea must return to port.

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5. Lending Stage
1) In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.


2) You cannot give resources to a major power in the same turn as it is giving resources to you. However, you can give resources to a major power in the same turn as another major power gives resources to you. The same restrictions apply to lend leasing build points. You may however give build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power or vice versa.

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When you have can and cannot spelled out for you in #2 It makes you wonder if in #1 that "another major power" should have been "other major powers".

You cannot:
Give resources to a major power in the same turn as it is giving resources to you.
Lend lease build points to major powers in the same turn as those major powers lend lease build points to you.

You can:
Give resources to a major power in the same turn as another major power gives resources to you.
Lend lease build points to a major power in the same turn as another major power lend leases build points to you.
Lend lease build points to a major power in the same turn you receive resources from that major power or vice versa.

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In this stage, you can announce that you are giving resources and/or lend leasing build points (see 13.6.4 Lend lease) to another major power on the same side this turn.

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While we are at it are you only allowed to give resources and lend lease BP to ONE major power a turn?