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I wonder if David or Erik would tell us....

 
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I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 8:49:37 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		What game they've sold that sold the most copies. Or even better their top 10 selling games in order from 1 to 10? Don't have to tell sales figures or even how many they sold. I'd just like to know what wargamers out there are really buying from them in a specific order. Mostest sort of thing. ;) How about it David or Erik?
Post #: 1
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 11:11:19 AM   
sterckxe


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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
What game they've sold that sold the most copies. Or even better their top 10 selling games in order from 1 to 10? Don't have to tell sales figures or even how many they sold. I'd just like to know what wargamers out there are really buying from them in a specific order. Mostest sort of thing. ;) How about it David or Erik?


I heard their bestseller is their "forum" game. It's a kind of MMP-RPG game in which gamers score points by posting to as many forums as possible. Bonus points are awarded for managing to post original, non-repetitive posts, but a lot of players seem unaware of this.

And the best feature of all : it's free !

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 2
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 2:05:51 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Lol and why have I never heard of this forum game? ;)

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RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 2:15:43 PM   
sterckxe


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Lol and why have I never heard of this forum game? ;)


Sorry, I mistook you for another "Ravinhood" who's a regular "Forum" player after he discovered the game in a bargain bin years ago

This "Forum" game is great fun you know, take my word for it

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 4
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 2:29:41 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Finally a game I can claim to be good at...

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RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 2:30:10 PM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		Lol OHHHH THAT FORUM game. I just woke up so you'll have to excuxe my lack of "comprehension" atm. ;)

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Post #: 6
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 4:42:02 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
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Status: offline 		Yes, I'd have to say "Forum" in its various versions and sequels has been our best seller by far.

More seriously, sorry we don't give out that info.

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RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 5:28:43 PM   
sterckxe


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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
More seriously, sorry we don't give out that info.


Ok, Ravinhood, I'm not bs-ing right now - as Mr. Rutins can attest :

I've got this theory that the number of forum posts are indicative for the total sales of a game. Well, not the straight posting numbers of course but the numbers weighted for :

- game complexity : complex games have more people posting questions and generating discussions about the finer points of this or that.

- number of years on the market : a game that's been on the market for a number of years will have more forum posts as one that was released barely 2 months ago, but most posts seem to be made in the first year upon release.

So, all you have to do (ahum) is to give a complexity rating to their games - easy as you seem to know all about them - and do some calculus.

Make sure you post the results - and the formulas and weight values - in here - it'll be truly fascinating.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 8
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 5:56:09 PM   
General Quarters

 

Posts: 1059
Joined: 12/3/2006
Status: offline 		I'm curious, Erik. It is not just you all, but nobody gives out that info. The "independent" game designer who works with one of your rivals said he wasn't even given the numbers of his own game that sold. I assume everbody feels that this information would hurt them competitively in some way, but I can't imagine how. Could you explain why this kind of information is kept confidential? Or is that also one of the deep secrets?

Side note: All this reminds me of an "official" trip I took to Moscow in 1993. The KGB archives had just been opened up to scholars. We were just touring the facility, but very curious about what was in these files. Finally, someone asked, can we see something -- what's in this file drawer for example? The guide opened the first file and read a bit. It seemed to be a love letter from Lenin to some apparently married woman! I later learned, from a friend who was evidently higher ranking than me, that we had only seen the "outer" files. Some of the documents in the outer files were forged to incriminate political enemies. You had to go into the inner files to find out which of the outer files were legit. And there seems to have been a third tier as well. My friend, visiting the inner sanctum, asked to see a file and pulled out one at random. It was the KGB file on one Ronald Reagan, going back all the way to the 1940s. Secrets inside secrets. Maybe sales data are like that.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 9
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 6:07:32 PM   
sterckxe


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From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters
I'm curious, Erik. It is not just you all, but nobody gives out that info.


Not quite true. Arjuna of Panther Games has posted sales numbers. And when you read posts made by developers they sometimes "slip up" a bit and mention something from which you can derive/guesstimate sales numbers. As an example : Theatre of War over at Battlefront - it got mentioned "several thousand pre-orders" were shipping etc.

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters
The "independent" game designer who works with one of your rivals said he wasn't even given the numbers of his own game that sold.


Logical contradiction - he must have correct sales numbers, how else would he know if the contractual obligation between the publisher and him was honoured ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters
I assume everbody feels that this information would hurt them competitively in some way, but I can't imagine how.


My take on this : say as a publisher you know *exactly* how many copies a turn-based hex-based WWII game sells these days. A new developer approaches you with such a game. You now know exactly what you can offer him and make some money yourself. If a rival publisher knew the numbers as well, he could try to undercut you etc. Knowledge is power.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to General Quarters)
Post #: 10
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 6:07:41 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters

I'm curious, Erik. It is not just you all, but nobody gives out that info. The "independent" game designer who works with one of your rivals said he wasn't even given the numbers of his own game that sold. I assume everybody feels that this information would hurt them competitively in some way, but I can't imagine how. Could you explain why this kind of information is kept confidential? Or is that also one of the deep secrets?



That's just the way it's done, not just in this particular industry... Part of the reason is fear that if a company publishes details of its most popular products, other companies might reverse-engineer these products cheaper, and outcompete them.

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RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 6:41:01 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Not quite true. Arjuna of Panther Games has posted sales numbers. And when you read posts made by developers they sometimes "slip up" a bit and mention something from which you can derive/guesstimate sales numbers. As an example : Theatre of War over at Battlefront - it got mentioned "several thousand pre-orders" were shipping etc.

Where did he do that? Do you have a link? I'm curious, in a friendly, inhouse competitive fashion, to see how TOAW III's sales numbers stack up against the game that was widely lauded to be wargame of the year. I'm guessing we've outsold them, by application of the Sterckxe Theorem of Forum Post Density...

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 12
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/18/2007 11:25:04 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters
I'm curious, Erik. It is not just you all, but nobody gives out that info. The "independent" game designer who works with one of your rivals said he wasn't even given the numbers of his own game that sold. I assume everbody feels that this information would hurt them competitively in some way, but I can't imagine how. Could you explain why this kind of information is kept confidential? Or is that also one of the deep secrets?


I can't imagine not telling a developer what his own game sold. We certainly report fully on sales to our developers. As far as the general reason to not post such info everywhere for the public, it comes back to business and competitive reasons.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to General Quarters)
Post #: 13
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 12:28:54 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		I've often thought that myself Eddy that the number of posts on the forum sort of give a view of what game is most popular. I've often thought thread "views" gave some meaning to that as well. The more views the more popular. That would mean then that WitP and SPWAW (which is free) have delivered the most copies to gamers. I'm sure Erik et al have their business and competition reasons, but, I'm trying to figure out who they are in competition with? There's hardly a market for wargames as is, are they afraid of Paradox? Battlefront? HPS? Shrapnel even? Also for the record Slitherine and Stardock released somewhat sales figures on a couple of their games. Legion by Slitherine was quoted by Iain to have sold well over 100,000 copies and the Froggy dev at Stardock was quoted to have said the first 75,000 copies of GalCiv II went faster than expected and they had to hurry a reprint. Not exact figures, but, at least something to go by and smile about I'm sure.

So, I guess the question needs to be asked of the developers since they seem more willing to give out some figures than publishers are? I mean look at WOW, Blizzard seems to love telling the world they've sold 8 million copies...wonder why they aren't worried about competition? NCsoft/Anet have reported sales of Guild Wars beyond 3 million copies and even Sony reported over one an a half million copies of Everquest were sold.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 14
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 12:32:12 AM   
Terminus


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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Oh yeah, compare WoW to a Matrix game... Nice one...



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Post #: 15
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 1:55:40 AM   
sterckxe


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Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM

quote:

ORIGINAL: sterckxe
Not quite true. Arjuna of Panther Games has posted sales numbers. And when you read posts made by developers they sometimes "slip up" a bit and mention something from which you can derive/guesstimate sales numbers. As an example : Theatre of War over at Battlefront - it got mentioned "several thousand pre-orders" were shipping etc.

Where did he do that?


Martin "Moon" Van Balkum - in the Battlefront ToW forum - unfortunately the forum "Search" function needs you to login to their forum to perform a search on "several thousand" and member "Moon" but it should be easy to find.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JAMiAM
Do you have a link? I'm curious, in a friendly, inhouse competitive fashion, to see how TOAW III's sales numbers stack up against the game that was widely lauded to be wargame of the year. I'm guessing we've outsold them, by application of the Sterckxe Theorem of Forum Post Density...


I've got a good guesstimate of TOAW 3 too when Ralph Trickey slipped up once ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to JAMiAM)
Post #: 16
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 2:01:47 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
Legion by Slitherine was quoted by Iain to have sold well over 100,000 copies and the Froggy dev at Stardock was quoted to have said the first 75,000 copies of GalCiv II went faster than expected and they had to hurry a reprint. Not exact figures, but, at least something to go by and smile about I'm sure.


Hints and glimpses is mostly what you get - but over the years a picture starts to form. Just today Pat Proctor of ProSimCo and the ATF and AATF engine posted this on UseNet

"if a wargame sells 1-3k copies in its life time (a pretty decent number, by the way)"

From this you can draw some conclusions and so on ...

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 17
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 8:08:27 AM   
ravinhood


Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline 		I feel sorry for them if they are only selling 1-3k copies of a game in a lifetime. Dave Landrey told me many years ago when I was beta testing for him that they needed to sell 10,000 copies just to break even and that was back in the late 80's early 90's. I can only imagine that it must be more today.

My main reasoning for wanting to know the top 5 or 10 was for MP purposes. I'd rather buy wargames that have the most potential for getting a MP partner for a PBEM game. Knowing which are most popular would help in determining which game(s) to buy. I just never dreamed publishers worrying about competitors knowing what their best selling game(s) were.

(in reply to sterckxe)
Post #: 18
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 8:23:43 AM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I feel sorry for them if they are only selling 1-3k copies of a game in a lifetime. Dave Landrey told me many years ago when I was beta testing for him that they needed to sell 10,000 copies just to break even and that was back in the late 80's early 90's. I can only imagine that it must be more today.


Depends on who you are talking about. Pat Proctor still makes his money soldiering, not writing PC games. I think it's a hobby as much as anything else.

(in reply to ravinhood)
Post #: 19
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 10:57:48 AM   
Dave Ferguson

 

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From: Kent, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

Depends on who you are talking about. Pat Proctor still makes his money soldiering, not writing PC games. I think it's a hobby as much as anything else.



Ron Dockal at Schwerpunkt is another example of the 'kind of a hobby' approach with development work in his spare time. Currently the problem is his employer seems to be working him to death. So the East front/European sequel to RGW/AGW is still in the planning stage and will involve a lot of coding if he adopts the approach he wants to, writing a complete new engine, user interface and AI.

As for sales numbers all I know is that the original RGW had outsold AGW a year or so ago. Probably because of the popularity of the east front.

(in reply to Hertston)
Post #: 20
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 12:35:23 PM   
korrigan


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quote:

ORIGINAL: General Quarters
I'm curious, Erik. It is not just you all, but nobody gives out that info. The "independent" game designer who works with one of your rivals said he wasn't even given the numbers of his own game that sold.



Being a member of an independent studio whose game was distributed by Matrix, I can certainly tell you we got regular and comprehensive reports on our game sellings.

Best regards,

Korrigan

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Post #: 21
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 1:35:19 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Status: offline 		So what were they? 

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Post #: 22
RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 10:25:16 PM   
JAMiAM

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

So what were they? 

Bigger than a bread box, and smaller than an elephant.

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RE: I wonder if David or Erik would tell us.... - 5/19/2007 10:28:07 PM   
UndercoverNotChickenSalad


Posts: 3990
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From: Denial Aisle
Status: offline 		Confidential, ravin.

And dont go trying to suck up to Marcs either.  I don't think he loves you anymore.

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