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Confusion on rules - 5/29/2007 1:29:22 AM

Chaylaton

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Joined: 1/14/2007
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Ok, my third game of Wif is in it death throws. I decided to review the rule book to see what rules we, the players, canablized. First, 9.3 rule, Germany must declare war on Poland, no other DOW are aloud in that impulse? So does that mean if I want to DOW on the Netherlands as well I could not? Also in that rule it states that France and the CW must declare on Germany on their next impulse, doesn't this statement contradict the first? So, If Germany is "first side" in S/O, does Fr CW DoW on the 2nd side or do they have to wait until N/D? Second, 9.8, It reads that you can only align one country per impulse. Is there a exception for this when Germany DoW on Russia, because so many countries fall into line when that occurs? Lastly, I'm looking for where I read it can't quote the location in the rule book, sorry, but can you DoW on multiple countrys at the same time? Such as I DoW on Belgium and Netherlands at the same time, I thought I read that you can DoW only on one country at a time.

Chaylaton

Post #: 1

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/29/2007 2:14:24 AM

terje439

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Each two month period has several impulses, so Germany would DoW Poland at the start of the game, and when the Axis are all done and the Allied impulse begins, they DoW Germany although it is still S/O 39.

(in reply to Chaylaton)

Post #: 2

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/29/2007 2:28:10 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaylaton

Ok, my third game of Wif is in it death throws. I decided to review the rule book to see what rules we, the players, canablized. First, 9.3 rule, Germany must declare war on Poland, no other DOW are aloud in that impulse? So does that mean if I want to DOW on the Netherlands as well I could not? Also in that rule it states that France and the CW must declare on Germany on their next impulse, doesn't this statement contradict the first? So, If Germany is "first side" in S/O, does Fr CW DoW on the 2nd side or do they have to wait until N/D? Second, 9.8, It reads that you can only align one country per impulse. Is there a exception for this when Germany DoW on Russia, because so many countries fall into line when that occurs? Lastly, I'm looking for where I read it can't quote the location in the rule book, sorry, but can you DoW on multiple countrys at the same time? Such as I DoW on Belgium and Netherlands at the same time, I thought I read that you can DoW only on one country at a time.

Chaylaton

Most of these I know off the top of my head. Others can give you answers about he rest I am sure.

The German DOW on Poland is in the 1st impulse of the 1st turn. The French and CW DOWs on Germany are in the 2nd impulse of the 1st turn. That there can be no other DOW in the 1st impulse, limits the entire Axis for the 1st impulse. Germnay could not DOW the Netherlands in the 1st impulse of the 1st turn. However, Germany can DOW as many countries as it likes in the 3rd and following impulses of the 1st turn. Since the French and CW DOWs occur in the 2nd impulse of the 1st turn, they do not conflict with the rule expressly about the 1st impulse of th e1st turn.

Perhaps your confusion here is to believe that each impulse has two parts to it, one for the Phasing side and a second for the non-Phasing side. That is not true. Whichever side starts a turn is the Phasing side for the 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. impulses and the non-Phasing side for the 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. impulses. The opposing side is the non-Phasing side for the 1st, 3rd, 5th, etc. and the Phasing side for the 2nd, 4th, 6th, etc. impulses.

The alignment of 1 country per impulse, is simply that. When Germany DOWs on the USSR, no countries at all are aligned to the USSR. As a separate issue, I believe the rule limiting alignment to 1 country per impulse is for pro-actively aligning countries rather than aligning them in response to a DOW by the opposing side.
============
In my experience, once a player begins to lose a game, he expends a lot of time and effort rereading the rules looking for an error that can justify starting the game over. [Myself not excluded

].

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Chaylaton)

Post #: 3

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/29/2007 6:08:43 PM

Mziln

Posts: 1107
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From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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Your First question

The Allies and the Axis are restricted on who they can DoW on their first impulse.

quote:

9.3 Compulsory declarations.

Germany must declare war on Poland in the first impulse of any game that starts in Sep/Oct 1939. No major power may make any other declaration of war in that impulse.

France and the Commonwealth must declare war on Germany on their first impulse after Germany has declared war on Poland. No major power may make any other declarations of war in that impulse.

The way the turns are structured each trun is made up of a series of stages which are made up of a variable number of impulses for each side. Stages and Impulses may have steps within them.

So durring the "Frst Turn, Action Stage, Axis intital impulse, DoW step" Germany can only DoW on Poland.

Germany may only choose a pass, combined, or land action during the first impulse of Sep/Oct 1939.

Durring the "Frst Turn, Action Stage, Allied intital impulse, DoW step" the CW and France can only DoW on Germany.

No other DoW's are allowed.

The USSR is allowed exercise its Nazi-Soviet Pact rights to occupy Eastern Poland if Poland has not surrendered.

Note: Surrendered and conquered are not the same thing. Poland cannot be conquered until the "END OF TURN STAGE".

IMO Poland should never be surrendered by the CW.

Note:

15. Surprise. The "Frst Turn, Action Stage, Axis intital impulse" Germany has suprised Poland.

The "Frst Turn, Action Stage, Allied intital impulse" the CW and France have suprised Germany.

Your Second question:

19.6 Soviet border rectification explains who is available to be aligned. Some could already at war with the USSR depending on the situation. If they are not already at war with the USSR minor countries are aligned dirring your �DoW step� one at a time. The only exception (that I can think of) to aligning more than one minor country is 19.5.2 Baltic States where the USSR occupies Latvia, Lithuania and Estonia.

Your Last question:

quote:

9.2 How to declare war

All major powers on this side announce which major powers on the other side they are declaring war on this impulse. They then all announce which neutral minor countries they are declaring war on this impulse.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 5/29/2007 9:10:50 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 4

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/30/2007 3:29:46 PM

Hortlund

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Speaking of declarations of war.

In a game where I was the US player (race to become a superpower), Russia and Germany conspired to try to take the US out of the game. They failed, but apparently there is a very high chance of it happening. If Russia declares war on Japan during the first turn, at least one chit is removed from US entry pool, I think its 1,6 chits removed or something like that, meaning that there is a 60% chance of preventing the US from ever entering the war. (Since the US cannot enter the war if the US entry pool ever reaches zero).

Is this really the way it is intended, or were my gaming buddies just trying to exploit the system?

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 5

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/30/2007 3:32:40 PM

Hortlund

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Another thing to consider that was actualized by that game. Russia attacked Persia, and after that Turkey. Eventually a situation arose where I as CW needed to go to war against Russia, because otherwise I would lose pretty much all of the mid east. However, the rules were utterly incapable of handing this situation, so we had to make up some house rules to cover the situation.

This game was over two years ago, but if I remember the situation correctly, I as CW were allowed to send troops into Turkey, but I was not allowed to attack Russia. Russia on the other hand was allowed to attack stacks that contained CW units.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 6

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/30/2007 6:14:29 PM

Mziln

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From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Speaking of declarations of war.

In a game where I was the US player (race to become a superpower), Russia and Germany conspired to try to take the US out of the game. They failed, but apparently there is a very high chance of it happening. If Russia declares war on Japan during the first turn, at least one chit is removed from US entry pool, I think its 1,6 chits removed or something like that, meaning that there is a 60% chance of preventing the US from ever entering the war. (Since the US cannot enter the war if the US entry pool ever reaches zero).

Is this really the way� it is intended, or were my gaming buddies just�trying to exploit the system?�

quote:

24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945

Entry Markers: The US has 3 entry markers. Place them in either, or both, entry pools.

US entry action 28. USSR declares war on Japan (Ja) -17
(one chit is removed and there is a 70% of removal of a second chit from the US entry pool).

quote:

13.3.3 US entry actions

If the US can�t take a marker from an entry marker pool when required, it can never declare war on that pool�s major power(s).

Note: There are 2 pools one for Japan and one for Germany/Italy. If the US can�t take a marker from the Japan entry marker pool it could not DoW against Japan. It could still DoW against Germany/Italy.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 5/30/2007 6:25:56 PM >

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 7

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/30/2007 6:50:10 PM

Hortlund

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But isnt there something more the soviet player can do to lower US entry on the first turn? I distinctly remember it all coming down to a single roll of the dice whether the US would be out or not? If Russia declares war on Persia too perhaps?

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 8

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/30/2007 9:00:13 PM

ptey

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From: Copenhagen, Denmark
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There are alot of ways the USSR can create negative US entry against Germany (DoW on minors). If USSR want to, it can make sure that the US can never enter the war against Germany.
USSR DoW on Japan is -17(Ja), and afaict the only way for the USSR to create negative US entry against Japan - so if the US starts with 2 chits against Japan, they are certain that they atleast will be able to enter against Japan no matter what the USSR tries to do to prevent it..
I have never played anything except "standard" wif, so is this some kind of Patton in flames or DoD way of playing? It seems to me that after Germany have secured the west and USSR has engaged itself in war in the middle east against the CW, that Germany could turn east and kill the USSR with ease. Unless ofcourse there would some kind of mechanism preventing this?

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 9

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/30/2007 11:14:37 PM

Jimm

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From: York, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Another thing to consider that was actualized by that game. Russia attacked Persia, and after that Turkey. Eventually a situation arose where I as CW needed to go to war against Russia, because otherwise I would lose pretty much all of the mid east. However, the rules were utterly incapable of handing this situation, so we had to make up some house rules to cover the situation.

This game was over two years ago, but if I remember the situation correctly, I as CW were allowed to send troops into Turkey, but I was not allowed to attack Russia. Russia on the other hand was allowed to attack stacks that contained CW units.

My advice- play with Days of Decision! Pretty much freedom to ally & declare war on whoever you like if you play with the appropriate options.

World in Flames is designed to replicate WW2 with only very minor variations on the political set-up and basic sides. It has a real limitation around Russian play, as it is basically treated as a full Ally right from day 1 whereas as we all know the reality was somewhat different. DoD is basically 3-sided but can in principle allow a complete free for all.

I look forward to MDoD as the follow up to MWiF!

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 10

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/30/2007 11:15:29 PM

trees

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I think Patton in Flames would have a set of rules to cover three-sided WiF? Or maybe Days of Decision III?

(in reply to ptey)

Post #: 11

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/31/2007 7:44:08 AM

Mziln

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From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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Peace Keepers

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Another thing to consider that was actualized by that game. Russia attacked Persia, and after that Turkey. Eventually a situation arose where I as CW needed to go to war against Russia, because otherwise I would lose pretty much all of the mid east. However, the rules were utterly incapable of handing this situation, so we had to make up some house rules to cover the situation.

This game was over two years ago, but if I remember the situation correctly, I as CW were allowed to send troops into Turkey, but I was not allowed to attack Russia. Russia on the other hand was allowed to attack stacks that contained CW units.

See 9.9 Multiple states of war for more examples.

quote:

9.9 Multiple states of war

Because you can be at war with some major powers but not others, you will encounter cases where you are opposed by some units at war with you and by others that aren�t. This rule deals with those cases.

A unit may not enter or attack a hex (or units therein) controlled by a major power on the other side that it isn�t at war with. However it can attack a hex controlled by an enemy major power or minor country even if the hex contains units it is not at war with.

In attacking such a hex, you must fight all units there, but both sides ignore the fact that you may not be at war with all of them. This means that each side could fly air missions to the hex and use shore bombardment etc. as if they were all at war.

You can only support an attack against units you control if the supporting units are the same nationality as the unit (or hex during strategic bombardment) being attacked or at war with at least one major power or minor country attacking those units (or hexes).

Example 1: There are 2 Commonwealth land units and a face-down LND in Nice. Italy declares war on France and wants to attack Nice. Italian aircraft ground strike the hex. They can be intercepted by Commonwealth (but not French ~ see 18) fighters. Both the Commonwealth and Italy can fly aircraft in ground support to the hex.

If the Italians win the combat and advance into the hex, the face-down Commonwealth LND will be destroyed. Commonwealth units will not be able to counter attack to recapture the hex (unless they declare war on Italy) because they can�t attack a hex controlled by a major power they aren�t at
war with.

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 12

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/31/2007 8:37:50 AM

Mziln

Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

But isnt there something more the soviet player can do to lower US entry on the first turn? I distinctly remember it all coming down to a single roll of the dice whether the US would be out or not? If Russia declares war on Persia too perhaps?

Things the USSR can do to delay US entry on the 1st turn. Tell me if I missed any.

quote:

26. USSR controls East Poland (Ge/It) -7
(IMO this is manditory and can be implemented on the 1st USSR movement impulse)

27. USSR controls Nazi-Soviet Pact areas (Baltic States) (Ge/It) -4
(this option requires that you have already selected option 26. USSR controls East Poland)

31. USSR declares war on (Ge/It):
Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country (Rolled once per minor power) -25
(This would be very bad for US entry)
Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland (Rolled once per minor power) -12
(This is why Germany likes to refuse then agrees to USSR land consessions)
Other minor or Vichy France (Rolled once per major or minor power) -5
(DoW on Persia a "Other minor" -5)

28. USSR declares war on Japan (Ja) -17

36. Allied major power (USSR) executes a search and seizure -2 per search.

If the USSR wants the US unable to fight Ge/It all they have to do is DoW on South American countries until all the US entry chits in the Ge/It pool have been removed.

< Message edited by Mziln -- 5/31/2007 8:42:25 AM >

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 13

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/31/2007 11:28:39 AM

Hortlund

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Well, if the US starts with 3 chits, and has to put them in two pools, then one will get one and one will get two. Because if the pool is empty, there can be no US DOW against that country.

So with two chits in the Japan-pool, if the USSR DOWs Japan on turn 1, there is a 70% chance that the US can never declare war on Japan.

Is this really wad? Or is it an oversight?

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 14

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/31/2007 11:33:56 AM

Hortlund

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mziln

Peace Keepers

Yes, as you can see, the peace-keeping nation can not really wage war against the major power doing the war of aggression, while the major power doing the war of aggression can attack the peace-keeper.

Russia can attack and enter a hex belonging to Turkey. CW can attack a Russian unit, but may not advance into a Russia-controlled hex.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Mziln)

Post #: 15

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/31/2007 1:54:28 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Well, if the US starts with 3 chits, and has to put them in two pools, then one will get one and one will get two. Because if the pool is empty, there can be no US DOW against that country.

This is wrong.
It is not the pool being empty that makes the USA incapable of DoWing the country of the pool.
It is the pool being empty, and the USA having to draw a chit from this pool.
It is common practice to start the 39-45 game with 1 pool empty.

quote:

So with two chits in the Japan-pool, if the USSR DOWs Japan on turn 1, there is a 70% chance that the US can never declare war on Japan.

Is this really wad? Or is it an oversight?

I wonder why you ask about USSR trying to make the USA incapable of DoWing an Axis country.

In a REGULAR WiF FE game, the USA and the USSR are on the same side, and doing this for sure spells doom of the entire Allied side and particullary of Russia because if Germany & Italy are sure that the USA won't never DoW them, the USSR is dead.

Now, if you talk about DoD or PatiF games, these are not part of MWiF game 1, so MWiF-wise, there is not point in here. Personnaly I don't know DoD of PatiF enougth to know if this problem can occur in the DoD 3 sided game, but even in a race for superpower game, I wonder why USSR would do that because the consequence is that they will be conquered.

(in reply to Hortlund)

Post #: 16

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/31/2007 2:01:22 PM

Hortlund

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
This is wrong.
It is not the pool being empty that makes the USA incapable of DoWing the country of the pool.
It is the pool being empty, and the USA having to draw a chit from this pool.
It is common practice to start the 39-45 game with 1 pool empty.

Ok, but Ive never played a game where a player leaves one pool empty, simply because then you are definitively at risk. I can see how it would be smart to put all the chits in the japan-pool to avoid the -17 risk of a soviet dow on japan though.

quote:

I wonder why you ask about USSR trying to make the USA incapable of DoWing an Axis country.

In a REGULAR WiF FE game, the USA and the USSR are on the same side, and doing this for sure spells doom of the entire Allied side and particullary of Russia because if Germany & Italy are sure that the USA won't never DoW them, the USSR is dead.

Now, if you talk about DoD or PatiF games, these are not part of MWiF game 1, so MWiF-wise, there is not point in here. Personnaly I don't know DoD of PatiF enougth to know if this problem can occur in the DoD 3 sided game, but even in a race for superpower game, I wonder why USSR would do that because the consequence is that they will be conquered.

Race to become a superpower is a PatiF-scenario. It goes on to sometime beyond 1945, cant remember exactly how long. But in the end it usually stands between the US and the USSR who wins.

Anyway, if you remove the US ability to declare war on Ge/It, you can effectively remove the US player's chance of winning the game. Im not as certain as you that it spells doom for the USSR though, Ive seen enough games to know that Germany can lose a game long before the US enters. Ive also seen horribly failed Barbarossa-attempts.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 17

RE: Confusion on rules - 5/31/2007 7:31:33 PM

Mziln

Posts: 1107
Joined: 2/9/2004
From: Tulsa Oklahoma
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Patrice, you could have refered him back to my post #7

quote:

quote:

13.3.3 US entry actions

If the US can�t take a marker from an entry marker pool when required, it can never declare war on that pool�s major power(s).

Note: There are 2 pools one for Japan and one for Germany/Italy. If the US can�t take a marker from the Japan entry marker pool it could not DoW against Japan. It could still DoW against Germany/Italy.