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RE: Rigging The Game

 
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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/14/2007 8:49:07 AM   
vahauser


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FlashFyre,

I play with Fast Artillery ON and Auto Rally ON just to save time.  I'm going to have to spend some time thinking about how Auto Rally ON gives me more of an advantage than Auto Rally OFF (other than the time saved).


Riun T,

You keep coming right back to issues that don't matter much to me.  What does it matter if I complete a campaign or not?  Completing a campaign is not relevant to whether I know how to play the game or not.  Completing a campaign is more a matter of endurance instead of playing skill.  I stopped playing Group Anders Long Long Road not because I got bored, but because nobody was interested in what I was doing.  You yourself have said that my Group Anders Long Long Road was worthless.  Why should I start up Group Anders again if it is worthless?

Also, you play using Standard 8.40.  I play using Enhanced DVRN.  The two games are different.  I prefer Enhanced DVRN and have no desire to play Standard 8.40 anymore.  So whatever is happening to your Indians using Standard 8.40 is different from what would happen to anybody else's Indians using Enhanced DVRN.

Also, what does it matter whether my name is on the credits of Steel Panthers?  Do you think that Gary Grigsby could beat you in a PBEM game?  Hell, I don't think Gary Grigsby could even beat Alby (no offense, Alby).  Do you think that Mike Wood could beat me?  Do you think it matters?  The best players are almost never the game designers.  Game designers are too busy doing other things to actually play the games they design.  The best players are the people who actually play the game day after day after day.  Some of the very best SPWAW gamers I know don't even post on these forums.  They are too busy playing the game.  Your comments in this regard are irrelevant.

Here is what is relevant.  I told you what I was willing to do.  You start a thread describing the core and the rules and the guidelines you want me to use, and let's see what happens.  My only requirement is that the campaign must use Enhanced DVRN.



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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/14/2007 9:14:17 AM   
FlashfyreSP


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Vahauser

AutoRally isn't just a "time saver"...it acts like a "nanny", doing the work of conducting rally attempts for all units still capable. Sure, it saves the player the effort of actually reviewing his forces and rallying those units he feels need it, but that makes it an advantage because it removes the onus of doing so from the player.

With it ON, the player's units will always be checked for rallying at the end of each turn, and all rally attempts will be made; with it OFF, all Rallying must be done manually by the player, and no rallying occurs at the end of the turn. If the player fails to check a unit, and it is Pinned, it stays that way during the enemy turn. Retreating and Routed units will run away, instead of "magically" rallying just enough to get shot up the next turn. This can be beneficial to the player, as it gives him the opportunity to allow units that are Routed/Retreating to actually retreat from danger, when the chances of successfully Rallying the unit during the player's turn are low.

Take this example:
P1 has a squad that is in an exposed location, and has come under fire from an enemy unit. At the start of the P1 turn, the unit is Retreating, with 50+ Suppression; two hexes behind the unit is a lower slope, which is out of LOS of the enemy unit. To get there, P1 has two options:
OPTION 1: try to conduct Rallies to return the unit to Ready status, hope that it recovers enough MPs to move 2 hexes, and then pray that the unit isn't OpFired against while moving into the 1st hex.
OPTION 2: leave the unit alone and watch it retreat the 2 hexes during the Retreat Phase at the end of the turn, taking no OpFire and ending up out of LOS of the enemy unit.

With AutoRally ON, Option 2 is a no-go. The game will automatically try to rally the unit, and, if it succeeds just once, the unit will become Pinned. No moving out of LOS. And the enemy unit will be able to fire on it again next turn, with a much beter chance To Hit.

With AutoRally OFF, Option 2 works.

In summary:
a. AutoRally ON prevents the player from missing rally attempts, and removes the onus of conducting those checks from the player.
b. AutoRally ON prevents units from retreating normally at the player's request due to enforced rally attempts.
c. AutoRally OFF forces the player to review his force each turn, making all desired Rally checks, before ending the turn.


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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/14/2007 2:18:42 PM   
vahauser


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FlashFyre,

I just ran a test using AutoRally OFF. Using the Editor I placed a platoon of Soviets in a forest. I deployed a platoon of German 50mm light mortars 5 hexes away from the Soviets. I used the German three light mortars to bombard a hex that I knew there was a Soviet squad in. I was using Hotseat Mode so that I could control (and watch) both sides during the test. Then I watched what happened.

Turn 1: Sure enough, the mortars put 83 suppression on the targeted Soviet squad. At the start of the Soviet turn, that unit was ‘Routed’. No rally attempts were manually performed. At the end of the Soviet turn 1, it retreated 1 hex into a friendly occupied hex.
Turn 2: German simply ended turn. Start of Soviet turn 2, the routed unit no longer had 83 suppression. It only had 26 suppression now, but it was still considered ‘Routed’. No rally attempts were manually performed. At the end of the Soviet turn 2, it retreated 3 hexes away into some clear terrain.
Turn 3: German simply ended turn. Start of Soviet turn 3, the fleeing Soviet squad now only had 14 suppression and is considered ‘Retreating’. No rally attempts were manually performed. At the end of the Soviet turn 3, it retreated 3 more hexes away.
Turn 4: German simply ended turn. Start of Soviet turn 4, the affected Soviet squad is now ‘Ready’ with a suppression of 1 and moves 4 hexes back towards the rest of its platoon. No rally attempts were manually performed.

AutoRally OFF was in effect throughout this little test. No rally attempts were manually performed at any time during this test. What the test revealed is that even if a unit makes no rally attempts, and even if AutoRally OFF is selected, a unit that has high suppression will have that suppression reduced to ‘Ready’ status after a few turns provided that it suffers no further enemy attacks and it remains out of the LOS of any enemy units.

However, I agree with your statement that AutoRally OFF is usually (but not always) a disadvantage for the human player. If nothing else, just the tedium of going through manually and checking all your units will require greater focus and attention. In turn, this will create more tension and frustration on the player, especially when he occasionally misses a unit or two that he meant to rally. So, yes, AutoRally OFF usually makes the game more difficult for the human player.

The question then becomes: how big a disadvantage is using AutoRally OFF?

I go down the existing list and ask myself the question, “which would give me the greater advantage, X or Y?”

For instance, would playing the US Army give me a greater advantage than AutoRally ON? Yes
Would playing the Germans or Soviets or British give me a greater advantage than AutoRally ON? Yes
Would playing with C&C OFF give me a greater advantage than AutoRally ON? Probably.
So now I know where to rank playing with AutoRally ON. It is probably a 1 or a 2 on a 1-to-10 scale (depending on how many units you have to deal with in your campaign). A small core would be less of a problem with AutoRally OFF.

Here is a revised list:

Choosing to play a WW2 Long Campaign (10+, the most overwhelming advantage a player can rig for himself)
Choosing to employ mines and barbed wire and dragons teeth (10)
Choosing to play a Generated Campaign (9, almost as overwhelming as a WW2 Long Campaign)
Choosing the US Army or USMC (5, American artillery)
Choosing to employ airstrikes (4 or 5 depending on nation and year)
Choosing the Germans or Soviets or British (3 or 4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ on-board artillery larger than 82mm mortars (2-4, depending on size of artillery)
Choosing to employ commando special operations (2-4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ airborne operations (2-4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ Rarity OFF (1-4, depending on the kind of campaign being played)
Choosing to play with C&C OFF (2)
Choosing to play with AutoRally ON (1 or 2, depending on the size of your core)
Choosing to use reinforcements during play (1 or 2, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to play with Op-Fire Confirm ON (1)
Choosing Reduced Ammo ON (1, only if playing a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign)
Choosing Reduced Squads ON (1, only if playing a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign)


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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/14/2007 7:53:53 PM   
Nikademus


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Good point on Auto Rally FlashF. Think i'll play around with it off when i get a chance. Too much pinning in the game as is.

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/14/2007 8:05:25 PM   
FlashfyreSP


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Sorry, but I totally disagree with your "ranking" system. But then, that is YOUR ranking, and you are by no means the officially-recognized "expert" on SPWAW.

Of course a unit with Suppression that isn't rallied and doesn't take more fire will lose Suppression each turn, until it returns to Ready status with no Suppression; that's stated right there in the manual on pg.68! I made no mention of that aspect, because I "assumed" that even the most mediocre player understands that. My point was that, with AutoRally ON, the player consciously gives up some control of his forces to the game's operational routines. And because the game never fails to conduct Rally attempts, it is an advantage to the player, and a large one, to have it ON. If AutoRally is turned OFF, the player is forced to review his forces, find those that need rallying, and make those checks himself. Failure to do so will lead to the player's force being less effective during the battle than if all possible rally attempts are made, and that will make the AI's force more effective.

But I don't know why I even bother anymore...you are the only one I know of who spends more time trying to "rig" the game and come up with charts and lists and personal restrictions than actually playing the damn game!


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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/15/2007 2:00:32 AM   
vahauser


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FlashFyre,

I'm not disagreeing with you.  I'm not trying to argue with you.  I think you are correct.  AutoRally ON is an advantage for the human player.  For precisely the reasons you stated.

As far as the "rankings", that is entirely the point of this thread.  I've compiled a list of rankings as a starting point, nothing more.  You are correct, as of this moment the rankings are not a consensus.  All I have to go on is my own experience right now until input from others can be used to refine the list.

And you are also correct.  To me, using AutoRally OFF is not that big a disadvantage.  Here is an example.  Let's say that I am fighting a battle with 200 friendly units (core + support) against 400 enemy units (I'm fighting a delay and the computer is receiving AI Advantage ON and Hard Battle (x2) which significantly increases the number of computer units).  Now, during any given turn, of my 200 units perhaps 40 or 50 of them are directly engaged against the computer.  The rest of them are either in the rear (like artillery and trucks, etc.) or are otherwise not located where that turn's fighting is (say they are in the south but this turn's fighting is mainly in the north or center).  Anyway, the best tool the player has for quickly scanning his units is the 'Roster'.  I've been using the Roster for so many years that to me it is an automatic thing I do every turn.  Even without AutoRally OFF I typically consult my Roster 5 or 6 times every turn.  AutoRally OFF would require me to consult my Roster a few more times per turn than I already do, but since I'm already used to doing that, then it's not really a burden to me. 

So, even with a force of 200 units, I'm rarely going to have to Rally more than 25% of them on any given turn.  And since I can very quickly scan (and I'm talking in terms of seconds here since I use the Roster so often that I am quite good at scanning it) my Roster to locate suppressed units, then the overall effect of AutoRally OFF is not that serious a disadvantage to me.  Which is why I rated it on the 'Rig List' the way I did.  Further, many players already do a lot of manual rallying during any given turn.  This means that AutoRally OFF is more of an end-of-turn adminstrative chore than anything else, something that the Roster is ideal for taking care of chores of that nature.  Of course, I use the Roster heavily and am skilled at using it.  Those players who have to learn how to use the Roster efficiently will suffer more from the effects of AutoRally OFF than I do.  But for those players already skilled in the use of the Roster, then AutoRally OFF is not a great disadvantage.

You can conduct a simple poll.  Give players a choice.  Ask them: "Which would you rather play with as a disadvantage, C&C ON or AutoRally OFF."  My guess is that the overwhelming choice will be AutoRally OFF.  And that is because players perceive (correctly in my opinion) that C&C ON is a tougher disadvantage to deal with than AutoRally OFF.

You and I don't disagree regarding AutoRally OFF in principle.  The only disagreement is one of degree.  I don't see it as being worse than C&C ON. 

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/15/2007 3:46:04 AM   
FlashfyreSP


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I concede the point that the use of AutoRally ON simplifies the player's rallying ability, but I believe you, and many other players, are missing the greater aspect of turning OFF the AutoRally feature: the ability to allow units to retreat as part of a conscious battlefield decision.

Maybe I'm not explaining it fully, or using the right examples, but it is a very important piece of the command process: under normal circumstances, with AutoRally ON, the player is not able to consciously allow a unit to retreat by deciding not to rally it. The game will "catch" that "mistake" and make the rally attempts, and only if the computer fails will the unit actually retreat.

I'm sure many players have experienced a unit that begins their turn in Retreat or Rout status, and they must decide whether to manually attempt to rally the unit so they can move it out of harm's way, or leave it alone and hope it fails the AutoRally ad then retreats. With AutoRally OFF, players can avoid the dilemma of "to rally or not to rally" and know that the unit WILL retreat at the end of the turn.

Conversely, and why I consider the use of AutoRally to be a big advantage, if the player fails to make all the rally attempts he wants to, the game won't "catch" them. So any unit left un-rallied will retain its status going into the enemy turn, and may come out worse than if the rallies have been made. The end result is that players who are not as diligent in their Rallying as the computer is will suffer worse game results. But AutoRally ON prevents all this, and absolves the player of any "failure to rally" actions. And THAT is what makes it a large advantage to use AutoRally in the ON position.


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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/15/2007 4:29:23 AM   
vahauser


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FlashFyre,

I agree with you and I understand what you are trying to say.  AutoRally OFF requires players to be responsible for all their rally actions, and players must make choices that they would not have to make with AutoRally ON.

Further, using AutoRally OFF requires players to be much more conscientious regarding the suppression status of all their units.  Failure to pay attention to all their units could cause unpleasant consequences.  This added level of stress makes playing with AutoRally OFF more difficult.

On the other hand, as you have pointed out, AutoRally OFF can actually prove to be an advantage to the player under certain circumstances where the player wants a fleeing unit to actually flee.  So, in these cases, AutoRally OFF actually gives the player more choices than he would have using AutoRally ON.

However, the disadvantages of using AutoRally OFF outweigh the advantages.  So, playing with AutoRally OFF is more difficult than playing with AutoRally ON.  Agreed.

Players who play small campaigns with a small core will find AutoRally OFF to be less of a disadvantage than players who play large campaigns.

Players skilled in the use of the Roster will find AutoRally OFF to be less of a disadvantage than players who are unskilled in the use of the Roster.

Overall, to me personally (given my play style and skill with the Roster), I rank AutoRally OFF as less of a disadvantage than C&C ON.

Bottom Line:  I plan to use AutoRally OFF in my future campaigns.

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/15/2007 4:29:58 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FlashfyreSP

Maybe I'm not explaining it fully, or using the right examples, but it is a very important piece of the command process: under normal circumstances, with AutoRally ON, the player is not able to consciously allow a unit to retreat by deciding not to rally it


You are, and I agree. As i mentioned before, I think the AR helps exaserbate the pin-happy aspect of Infantry component of this game leading to excessive bloodiness. (it helps to have inf toughness set to 250%) In this area I prefer how SP:WWII handles it. (INF units will auto retreat much more often away from intense and/or punishing fire in that game)




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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/16/2007 8:20:40 AM   
JEB Davis


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Vahauser,

I haven't visited here since the now "infamous" knife incident, so I just saw your reply and the thread was locked so I will reply here. The knife was in my OWN head, not yours. The feelings that prompted the knife smiley were something along the lines of "oh no, another flame war is brewing... I'll inject a bit of comedy here," and I discovered the smiley (I have dialup, so I rarely click the "more smileys" button due to how long it takes to load). So, to repeat, it was not your head but mine that the knife was sticking out of. My apology sir.

You may recall that in the past either here or at the Depot, I have not been "against" you and I do read your posts with an open mind. Obviously, you have the right to present your opinions just like everyone else here. Although generally, I tend to have a different opinion than you on many of your posts, some of your ideas have been akin to my own. Also, I fully realize that you have many more years of experience with SP:WaW than I do, and this causes me to listen because I enjoy gathering wisdom from those who know more than myself.

?? . . . . I just tend to have a strange sense of humor, that's all. (Sorry if this is considered a hijack, please return to your regularly scheduled program).

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Settings: 80Spot,80Hit,100R/R,XXXTQ,110TkT,150InfT,180AvSoft,130AvArm,150SOFire / Command & Ctrl ON / AutoRally OFF
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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/16/2007 9:11:23 AM   
vahauser


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JEB,

That whole "question on firing animations" thread was finished (information requested and information supplied) after the first two posts.  All the insanity that happened after those first two posts led to misunderstanding and confusion and frustration and ultimately anger.  I certainly misunderstood you. 

Message board forums are notorius for creating confusion and misunderstandings.  One of the reasons I try not to kid around on these forums is because I want to remain consistent.  If everybody knows that I am not kidding when I post something, then that cuts down on misunderstandings. 

Anyway, I appreciate your post here.  Thank you for clearing up some obvious confusion on my part. 

--Victor

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/16/2007 7:34:38 PM   
Alby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB Davis



I just tend to have a strange sense of humor, that's all.


If you saw his picture you would tend to agree.



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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/17/2007 9:57:21 PM   
KG Erwin


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Once more on stacking limitations: the AI has no limits, which has benefits in attacking, but provides a tempting target for a mortar barrage.

For me, it just seems gamey to stack up half a dozen AFVs and 100 men in a single hex. If I want to provide depth to an attack, I prefer to take that literally, with 20-30 men backed by 20 or 30 more.

How many times in an advance is the order given to spread out, not clump up in a disorderly mob? The AI will clump up, but no sane human commander would ever conduct an assault in that fashion. It's a recipe for slaughter.

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/17/2007 10:57:03 PM   
vahauser


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Erwin,

The problem is that I don't know how to add stacking to the Rig List.  How would you add stacking to the Rig List?

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/18/2007 12:16:03 AM   
KG Erwin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Erwin,

The problem is that I don't know how to add stacking to the Rig List.  How would you add stacking to the Rig List?


I don't know either. It's a self-imposed realism house rule. No "rigging" at all --just common sense. If you must ask, though, I'd rate it near the top, for whatever that's worth.



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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/18/2007 12:37:55 AM   
KG Erwin


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Another thing -- about mines -- we don't have one or two-man mine-clearing teams in the database. To give the AI mines takes away from its ability to buy more dug-in infantry or bunkers. That's the trade-off.

For mine-users, this implies a premium on buying engineer-type units. Once thru the minebelt, the human once again gains an advantage by having these heavily-armed assault units leading and wiping out entenched infantry with their flamethrowers and satchel charges.

In this instance, it is really a case of personal choice. The AI isn't smart enough to set up killing lanes with minefields, but it can place caves/bunkers/arty/ATG positions in unexpected places. This only adds to the drama when you think you've got the enemy beaten.

Nothing is more disheartening than suffering friendly casualties during the alleged "mop-up" phase of the battle.

I have stated my logic behind "no mines" repeatedly, but no one seems to notice my reasoning behind it.

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/18/2007 3:51:40 AM   
Goblin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin



For mine-users, this implies a premium on buying engineer-type units.


I disagree 150% with this. If you buy the core force you want to play, and have Mines ON, you play it with that core. If you do not have the self-control to not buy 15000 Engineers just because the enemy has mines, then I guess they should be turned off.

Regular infantry can clear mines. They take casualties doing it. Just like in real combat. Mines are a strong defense for the computer, and turning them off takes away one of its advantages, IMO (just like buying a ton of Engineers). Try it with your regular force. You will find your armored units doing nothing for the battle, until your leg units find and clear those fields, while taking casualties doing it.




Goblin


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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/18/2007 6:00:07 AM   
JEB Davis


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB Davis



I just tend to have a strange sense of humor, that's all.


If you saw his picture you would tend to agree.



Et tu, Alby?

_____________________________

Reduce SP:WaW slaughter, "Low Carnage":
Settings: 80Spot,80Hit,100R/R,XXXTQ,110TkT,150InfT,180AvSoft,130AvArm,150SOFire / Command & Ctrl ON / AutoRally OFF
Enhanced http://enhanced.freeforums.org
Depot https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/spwawdepot/

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Post #: 48
RE: Rigging The Game - 6/18/2007 10:03:46 PM   
Alby


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB Davis


quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

quote:

ORIGINAL: JEB Davis



I just tend to have a strange sense of humor, that's all.


If you saw his picture you would tend to agree.



Et tu, Alby?



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Post #: 49
RE: Rigging The Game - 6/19/2007 11:52:20 AM   
vahauser


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Erwin,

Mines
I understand your reasoning regarding mines OFF.  I just don't think that your reasoning helps the computer.  What you are saying is that the computer can buy more units since the computer isn't spending those points on mines.  Agreed.  But I think that the points spent on mines is more dangerous than those same points spent on extra units.  Also, there is no guarantee that the computer will spend those 'extra' points on useful units (like forts), but might instead waste them on units like snipers and knee mortars.

Further, mines will definitely slow down any assault.  It is true that once the minebelt is pierced a player’s troops will have better maneuverability, but the minebelt will still be there, channeling the assault.  And friendly units retreating onto the minebelt are in serious danger.  Plus, piercing the minebelt is going to take several turns, turns that the computer can use to bombard a largely static assault force as it tries to clear the minebelt.

In addition, Assault Missions occur around 20% of the time (1 in 5 missions are Assault Missions).  This means that buying lots of assault engineers might not be cost effective for the other 80% of the missions in the campaign.  I personally spend around 20-25% of my initial core points on assault units (engineers, assault guns, etc.) based on mission percentages.  So, if I build a core of say 2500 points, then 600 points or so will be assault units (for instance, a reduced strength Sturm company if I’m playing the Germans).

You are correct in one respect, though.  Choosing to play a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign renders the computer entirely predictable.  You know ahead of time how the computer is going to prepare its defenses.  This is one of many reasons that choosing a WW2 Long Campaign ranks a 10+ (and a Generated Campaign ranks a 9) on the ‘Rig List’.

Stacking
Let’s say that somebody plays using unlimited stacking (like most players do).  This allows serious abuses in WW2 Long Campaigns and Generated Campaigns because the player knows how the computer is going to operate.  Not the same in a custom designed campaign (like Wild Bill’s Long Long Road) because the battles are not predictable.  For instance, in a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign the player knows that the computer will never conduct an airstrike during a ‘pre-game’ bombardment, or any kind of ‘pre-game’ bombardment at all, unless the computer is conducting an Assault Mission.  But in a custom designed campaign this is not true.  So the player can take advantage of unlimited stacking to a much greater extent in a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign.

But where to rank unlimited stacking?  Is it a bigger advantage than USMC artillery and its 0.1 delay?  I don’t think so because whether a player stacks or not, having ‘instant’ artillery means ‘instant’ ability to disrupt whatever the computer is doing.  And since whatever the computer is doing is perfectly predictable in a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign, then USMC artillery is predictably overwhelming.  Most players don’t stack 200 units in a hex simply because it is too difficult and tedious to select individual units out of such an enormous stack.  And moving means that huge stacks will have to spread out into smaller stacks.  So, in practice, I suspect that most all players tend to operate in manageable stacks just because its easier to sort through stacks that way (manageable being say 8-12 units maximum because that is just about the limit that the eye can pick out individual units in a stack). 

Also, rapid maneuvers pretty much eliminate large stacks because units moving near full speed have no extra movement for stacking.  So, large stacks means slow moving or static positions.  At the start of a battle, this can still be a big advantage for the human player, since he can pile into a single important road junction his entire force.  But once the battle begins, those huge piles will thin out simply because of the way people play and the way the game mechanics work.  So unlimited stacking is mainly an advantage during deployment and the first turn.  After that, the large stacks will thin out during the course of play.

Further, unlimited stacking is not very useful on defense.  Large stacks during Delay and Defend missions don’t help the player very much at all and are probably a liability most of the time.

Don’t misunderstand me.  I do believe that unlimited stacking gives the human a definite advantage against the computer, especially during Meeting Engagements, Advance and Assault Missions (i.e., 60% of the time).

When I play against the computer, my personal stacking rule is 3 units per hex any time, 4 units per hex under special circumstances (I typically allow commanders to go into any hex they want), and up to 6 units per hex on rare occasions, like when 3 trucks unload in a hex (which must be reduced to 4 units or less as soon as possible, the same turn if possible).  This works pretty well and fits with what I’ve learned about maximum combat densities during WW2.

I would rate unlimited stacking (which actually works out to a practical maximum of around 8-12 units per hex for reasons stated above), as around a 3 to 5 on the ‘Rig List’ depending on the kind of battle being fought.

Here is a revised list:

Choosing to play a WW2 Long Campaign (10+, the most overwhelming advantage a player can rig for himself)
Choosing to employ mines and barbed wire and dragons teeth (10)
Choosing to play a Generated Campaign (9, almost as overwhelming as a WW2 Long Campaign)
Choosing the US Army or USMC (5, American artillery)
Choosing to employ airstrikes (4 or 5 depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ ‘unlimited’ stacking (3-5, depending of the type of battle being fought)
Choosing the Germans or Soviets or British (3 or 4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ on-board artillery larger than 82mm mortars (2-4, depending on size of artillery)
Choosing to employ commando special operations (2-4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ airborne operations (2-4, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to employ Rarity OFF (1-4, depending on the kind of campaign being played)
Choosing to play with C&C OFF (2)
Choosing to play with AutoRally ON (1 or 2, depending on the size of your core)
Choosing to use reinforcements during play (1 or 2, depending on nation and year)
Choosing to play with Op-Fire Confirm ON (1)
Choosing Reduced Ammo ON (1, only if playing a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign)
Choosing Reduced Squads ON (1, only if playing a WW2 Long Campaign or Generated Campaign)

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Post #: 50
RE: Rigging The Game - 6/22/2007 5:03:09 PM   
vahauser


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Ammo and ammo re-supply.

I've spent some time thinking about this issue regarding 'rigging the game'.

What are your thoughts on ammo and ammo re-supply in the game? 

How many of you use ammo re-supply?


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Post #: 51
RE: Rigging The Game - 6/23/2007 12:55:02 AM   
KG Erwin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

Ammo and ammo re-supply.

I've spent some time thinking about this issue regarding 'rigging the game'.

What are your thoughts on ammo and ammo re-supply in the game? 

How many of you use ammo re-supply?



You mean buying ammo carriers/crates? Yes, I buy them, to keep my dreaded USMC mortars topped up. Is it an advantage? Most definitely, as the AI doesn't buy them. I'd rank that pretty high on the rigometer. Of course, if one of those gets in the sights of an enemy unit, the AI will zero in on it quickly, and when one of them blows up, the suppression level of your adjacent units increases.

One question, though -- what is the purpose of all this subjective quantifying and analyzing?

(in reply to vahauser)
Post #: 52
RE: Rigging The Game - 6/23/2007 2:26:12 AM   
vahauser


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I wonder if there are any players who do not use ammo re-supply.  If any of you do not, I'd very much like to read about your perspective.

The more I think about ammo re-supply, the more questions I come up with.  I'm very interested in what other players think about ammo re-supply.

EDIT:
At which point does the use of ammo re-supply become an advantage for the human? I don’t think this an easy question to answer because of the way the dynamics of a human versus computer battle work.

For instance, the computer will almost always outnumber the human player. The outnumbered player will experience greater ammo expenditure per unit since he has more targets to shoot at. This greatly favors the side with more units.

Another factor to consider is the kind of battle being fought. Ammo expenditure is typically higher in offensive operations. Assault missions especially.

Right now, I believe that any human who plays with AI Advantage ON and Hard Battle (x2), like I do, is at a serious disadvantage against the computer without some form of ammo re-supply. However, how much ammo re-supply is enough to be ‘balanced and fair’ and yet not give the human player an advantage against the computer?

That is the question.






< Message edited by vahauser -- 6/23/2007 2:47:37 AM >


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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/23/2007 4:31:38 AM   
KG Erwin


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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser

I wonder if there are any players who do not use ammo re-supply.  If any of you do not, I'd very much like to read about your perspective.

The more I think about ammo re-supply, the more questions I come up with.  I'm very interested in what other players think about ammo re-supply.

EDIT:
At which point does the use of ammo re-supply become an advantage for the human? I don’t think this an easy question to answer because of the way the dynamics of a human versus computer battle work.

For instance, the computer will almost always outnumber the human player. The outnumbered player will experience greater ammo expenditure per unit since he has more targets to shoot at. This greatly favors the side with more units.

Another factor to consider is the kind of battle being fought. Ammo expenditure is typically higher in offensive operations. Assault missions especially.

Right now, I believe that any human who plays with AI Advantage ON and Hard Battle (x2), like I do, is at a serious disadvantage against the computer without some form of ammo re-supply. However, how much ammo re-supply is enough to be ‘balanced and fair’ and yet not give the human player an advantage against the computer?

That is the question.







Ok, you have a finite number of support points in a vs AI battle. If you keep your off-board fire support to realistic levels, it goes to follow that you don't clutter up the map with ammo carriers. Nevertheless, I'd think that at least one ammo carrier per company would be reasonable. For 1942 and earlier USMC battles, ammo supply was a legitimate concern. From 1943 on, it's virtually unlimited. At that point, I have an ammo carrier for each 81mm mortar section (two), and possibly two sections of onboard 75mm pack howitzers (two) plus one for each rifle platoon (9). So, a max of 13, IF the support points are available. Even without the off-board support, that's a lot of firepower for a battalion.


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Post #: 54
RE: Rigging The Game - 6/23/2007 5:28:15 AM   
FlashfyreSP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: vahauser


Another factor to consider is the kind of battle being fought. Ammo expenditure is typically higher in offensive operations. Assault missions especially.





I disagree with this part. I find I use more ammo when I am defending against the AI horde than when I am attacking/assaulting the AI. This applies to direct-fire, not indirect artillery fire. Many times I am forced to withdraw MG or LMG units from my MLR after emptying their ammo into an advancing enemy. I've even had numerous infantry units run out of rifle ammo.

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/23/2007 10:13:00 AM   
vahauser


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FlashFyre,

You've brought up a useful distinction, that is, indirect fire ammo as separate from direct fire ammo. 

How do you employ your ammo re-supply units?  In the rear with the artillery?  

In a typical campaign battle, how many ammo re-supply units do you use?

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/26/2007 8:29:50 PM   
FlashfyreSP


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Amount of resupply depends on core force composition and size; I usually have 1 Ammo Crate per 2 mortar/onboard artillery pieces. I place them with my artillery, which is usually within 10 hexes of the MLR in a defense battle. In the event a front-line unit runs out, I work at moving them to the resupply point.

While indirect fire units typically run out of ammo fast, and we are all experienced with that, running out of ammo for a squad's rifles or a MG is rare enough, except in large Defend battles. In these types of fights, if enough Support Points are provided, I buy 2-3 additional Ammo Crates and place them within 5 hexes of the MLR, as platoon resupply points.

I only purchase Ammo Carrier (mobile versons) units when I have mobile artillery, such as M7 Priests or Bishops. I use the immobile Ammo Crate units 90% of the time.


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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/26/2007 11:42:53 PM   
vahauser


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At least one person on this forum has stated that I abuse ammo-resupply and give myself a big advantage against the computer.

Based on the information just given by FlashFyre and Erwin, the amount of ammo resupply I gave myself in my Group Anders Long Long Road campaign is perfectly in line with what those two players do in this regard (I had 12 on-board artillery, 8 mortars and 4 25lbrs, and I gave myself 6 ammo crates). 

Of course, just because I give myself ammo resupply in line with what other players give themselves does not mean that the person calling me out for abusing the ammo-resupply rules is necessarily out of line.  I could very well be giving myself an advantage, hence my questions concerning ammo resupply.  But at least I know that I'm not giving myself more ammo resupply than other people.

A further consideration is the length of the battle.  Shorter battles require less ammo, in general, than longer battles.  This isn't always true, but as a general guideline it does apply.

Anyway, I'm still giving thought to the question, "At what point does the number of ammo-resupply units become an advantage for the human player?"

Clearly, using zero ammo resupply is a disadvantage for the human player due to reasons stated previously in this thread.  But as of now, I'm not much closer to answering the question than I was last week.

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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/27/2007 12:11:04 AM   
KG Erwin


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Using ammo re-supply units is an advantage to the human player, because the AI doesn't buy them.

This is also an advantage when using reduced ammo ON and national characteristics ON, as some countries have reduced ammo supplies in the late-war years (I think Japan is one of them).

Dependent on the length of the battle, I have seen the AI's arty fire shrink to virtually nothing, while I can keep my on-board fire assets going and going (just like the famous Energizer Bunny).

The only downside, as I mentioned before, is getting one of those ammo units blown up in proximity to one of your combat units.


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RE: Rigging The Game - 6/27/2007 3:44:49 AM   
FlashfyreSP


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All ammo resupply is an advantage to the player, because, as has been stated, the AI never buys them (unless the OOB formations the AI buys have been modified to include them). And even if the AI had them, it doesn't know how to use them. So in any non-designed battle (campaign or random generated) the AI is incapable of proper placement and use of the ammo resupply units, but the human player does not suffer from this problem.

As to how much of an advantage, that's up to you to decide, Vahauser. To me, a single ammo resupply unit for the player is a major advantage, and adding more ammo units doesn't change it.


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