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ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 1:34:26 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		This just happened in PBEM. I would have thought this to be impossible:

China. 9/27/42. The hex marked by the green square has a Japanese ZOC, is surrounded by Japanese Zocs. Movement by Allied units into this hex should be impossible.








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< Message edited by irrelevant -- 6/11/2007 1:47:39 AM >

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 1:41:40 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Next day. As you can see, there is a Chinese LCU in the hex.

My partner Halsey says this exploit is achieved by setting an enemy base as the LCU's destination. The LCU movement pathfinding routine will take it into the vacant hex, even though there is an enemy ZOC present.

Comments?




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< Message edited by irrelevant -- 6/11/2007 2:15:05 AM >

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 2:58:58 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Why would a unit 60 to 120 miles away deter a unit from using that hex?

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 3:03:47 AM   
Cpt Sherwood

 

Posts: 837
Joined: 12/1/2005
From: A Very Nice Place in the USA
Status: offline 		I think the statement - "The ground movement is wonky" - pretty much sums it up. I have seen this and other strange things. I have had LCUs move through a city that contains enemy units because that is the shortest path. I do not think they will ever fix it - we just have to live with it.

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 3:17:11 AM   
dtravel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Comments?



Its those railroad mounted, crew-served slingshots!

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 4:24:52 AM   
RUPD3658


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Status: offline 		I have had Allied units go through Songakia on their way to Rangoon.

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 4:52:10 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		It's a question of ZOC not doing what they are supposed to do.

The target destination can be either a friendly or enemy base.
The pathfinding routine ignores the ZOC.

A simple land bombardment will stop the movement if the destination is a non base hex.




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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 2:47:08 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

Why would a unit 60 to 120 miles away deter a unit from using that hex?

How come my LCUs didn't prevent this enemy LCU from moving through them to this position, but this LCU now prevents my LCUs in one hex from moving at all and cuts off their supply?

If not for ZOC "rules" preventing this from occurring, I would have put an LCU here to do the job. I'm not arguing that the ZOC "rules" make any sense; I am arguing that if ZOC "rules" exist, they should work.

Why have any "rules" at all, if they don't always work?

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 6/11/2007 3:06:04 PM >

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 4:00:37 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

Posts: 3351
Joined: 3/11/2003
From: Near Paris, France
Status: offline 		Well, ZOC rule had been chanegd lately.

In north Burma, Allied forces are in Myitkyina and 120 miles W of it. I'm Japanese, held Myitkyina and have troops 120 miles W of it.

I can order troops 120 miles W of Myitktina to go to the city and they will do it. I can also order units in Myitkyina to go to Mandalay and they will leave the city and follow the road, crossing the rail hex where there is battle on the way. Neither of these two moves worked a year ago.

By the way the hex between both units is either empty or usually occupied by a Japanese unit.

Now I wonder if the Allied units 120 miles W of Myitkyina may move south along the railway if there is no Japanese unit here. The answer is probably yes....

So it seems to me that we should now cover our supply paths. Not a bad thing IMOO, even if it comes from a faulty design.

The problem is that in WITP hexes are tiny spot with unlimited troop capacity. Rather than considering that a unit had marched 30 miles in a direction, you will better consider that the unit is still at the middle of the hex (it is behaving like that for all practical matters) and is 50% (30 on 60) prepared to move to the next hex. There is no notion of who owns a hexside, only who owns the hex, and when an hex is disputed both side "own it".

In former times, one couldn't move from a hex with an enemy ZOC to another with enemy ZOC. Now it seems that you can move everywhere except from an hex with an enemy unit inside to another hex with an enemy unit inside. As I said above, it is far better than the previous model IMOO (as ZOC have never pleased me in WITP) but you have to take this in account when you place your troops. One can no more send all troops to the front, you have to cover your rear area too.


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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 4:15:50 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		If the rule has been changed, where was this stated?

i am not saying this is a bad thing to change a rule, but people should be made aware of it if such a thing happens...

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 6:16:51 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		No changes have been made to any movement or zoc items to my knowledge. And since I'm the only one who has been changing the code since 1.8.0.2 (Oct 06) I would think I would know!


I do see things I've never seen before in this game, probably weekly and I've been playing this game everyday since it first came out (and UV before that)!

In my current game with Moses (I'm Japanese - he is Allied), I retreated a big stack of his out of Lashio (19 units) and then captured Mytchina and Moses' units walked THROUGH Mytchina and on to Ledo. It was "wild" watching them walk out of the Jungle, through our lines and on to Ledo and there being nothing I could do about it.

I'm not sure whether this happened because he'd plotted the move before I captured Mytchina or not.

I have, on other occasions had enemy troops walk "through my lines" in WITP, but it has been rare. The potential ability to walk through the lines is one of the potential problems with a "same hex" combat system. In such systems defining the "front line" can be problematic.

There has been some discussion about changing this ... but nothing has actually been done in this direction. Implementing hexside ownship tracking is one solution - and some board games use this - but it is easier said than done to implement that type of solution in the current game engine.



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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 9:25:40 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		I got out because the jungle hex I was retreated to was entirely my ZOC. So I walked from an allied ZOC to an enemy ZOC which is perfectly OK. Then I walked from a enemy ZOC to a friendly. Also OK.

I was really surprised you let me go as had a single enemy squad entered my hex in the jungle I would have been halted. I simply plotted my troops to Mytchina and when they arrived there I would plot them to Ledo.

It's always this problem with wargames where units are behind the lines. I can remember when the game came out it was possible in some instances for enemy units to pass each other on the roads! In fact wasn't the entire ZOC system added in an early patch? I just did a search in the manual and could not find anything about ZOC's.

Anyway, I certainly remember ZOC/movement changes being made after the game came out. But I think they were well before Oct 06.

< Message edited by moses -- 6/11/2007 9:27:26 PM >

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 9:34:50 PM   
qgaliana

 

Posts: 311
Joined: 4/27/2005
Status: offline 		I think the path finding will still try to avoid enemy zoc if it has a choice (probably determined by supply path). I've had units march right off raillines into jungle to avoid an enemy zoc (with no units) when I was trying to get to the enemy base just behind it.

The ZOC rules do a passable job of very simply creating front lines. But if you think about it, the simple algorithm will allow unopposed units to walk back to their own lines.

< Message edited by qgaliana -- 6/11/2007 9:43:24 PM >

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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/11/2007 9:41:51 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: moses

I In fact wasn't the entire ZOC system added in an early patch? I just did a search in the manual and could not find anything about ZOC's.



Yes. It was added because in the orig game you could actually physically surround a unit and it would still retreat forcing you to employ at least 7 LCU's or LCU sub units to lock the surrounded unit in place. You also couldn't block supply without having a physical unit sitting on every possible supply trace path and units could pass each other and wave.


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RE: ZOC movement exploit - 6/12/2007 12:38:02 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Next day. As you can see, there is a Chinese LCU in the hex.

My partner Halsey says this exploit is achieved by setting an enemy base as the LCU's destination. The LCU movement pathfinding routine will take it into the vacant hex, even though there is an enemy ZOC present.

Comments?




The LCU in question was marching from the hex NE of Wuchow to Chungking! Interesting pathfinding. Ignored our LCU-less ZOC......

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