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RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/8/2007 10:25:16 PM   
wosung

 

Posts: 692
Joined: 7/18/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you for the elaborate answer.

And I don't want to hijack this thread.

I know it's a board game design issue - just being historical wrong in this special case. Maybe someday, after the upcoming Production in Flames, ADG will release a "China in Flames" (with CCP Partisan HQ's, instead of field HQ's, etc.).

Regards


(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 31
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 10:01:16 AM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		Good Morning,
Here is the Finnish starting lines proposition (based on actual maps, source Finnish Defence Forces history department). This assumes that there was the Winter War between Russia and Finland. If there wasn't then Finland would be neutral as Sweden and Swizerland were. In addition, German forces would not be operating in Lappland (XVIII, XIX, and XXXVI Mountain armies plus 20th Mountain Army group HQ in Rovaniemi).
Anyway, I hope the maps will be downloaded to forum OK.

Pertti

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 32
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 10:09:29 AM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		Dang!!!!
Forgot to embed pictures.
Here is the 40-41 map.




Attachment (1)

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 33
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 10:10:29 AM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		And here comes the 42-44 map.




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(in reply to Update)
Post #: 34
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 10:44:42 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pertti
Here is the 40-41 map.

If I understand your picture correctly, the 1940 & 1941 start line is on the Finnish / USSR border, and the borderlands are Finnish are Russian.
Except that your take on the Finish Borderlands north of Lake Ladoga are smaller than ours. We originaly had it your way, but we exapanded it for game reasons (to avoid a 4 mover to cut the russian railway in 1 move).
Your 1940-41 start line make sense for a M/J 1941 start, but I suspect that they are used for the N/D 41 scenario start.
Let's wait for Steve to advise here.

On the 1942 map, your start lines are nearly the same as the ones we originaly drew, except for 2 hexes, is that it ?
I think we can correct our start lines to agree with yours, if Steve agrees.

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 35
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 10:46:07 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		About the river between Lakes Onega & Ladoga, it is already there, but south of yours.
I think that adding an extra one is not an option.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 36
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 11:32:15 AM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		Sorry, I missed that river (Syväri) between the lakes in the map. The Finnish line should be extended next to the river since that was the natural barrier where assault by 17th and 7th divisions was ordered to stop by Mannerheim 24.10.41. (have to read the hexes more throughly!)

About the borderlands, The problem for me was that there was a lakeside hex that would have blocked the historical assault by 2nd and 19th divisions towards Laatokka (Ladoga). Therefore, I had to give those two extra hexes for Finns, though the real border would be in the middle of hexes. So, since the distance from border to Laatokka in reality was less than 100 km, I decided to include those two hexes.

I do not know what is the best for the gameplay, see what you think.

For the N/D 41 scenario, the only difference is the Karhumäki-Poventsa area that was not taken untill 06.12.41 and Hanko which the Russians evacuated, with substancial  losses on the way, by 04.12.41.
Oops, the area (hex) I am talking about is the one north of Ääninen (Onega) where the railroad is and the black line is one hex north of red.
Other than that the 1.1.42 map is accurate for the N/D 41 scenario.

Thanks for the feedback,
Pertti

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 37
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 11:43:49 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pertti

Sorry, I missed that river (Syväri) between the lakes in the map. The Finnish line should be extended next to the river since that was the natural barrier where assault by 17th and 7th divisions was ordered to stop by Mannerheim 24.10.41. (have to read the hexes more throughly!)

So, you mean that the 1942 start line should be at this river ?
That extends it 1 hex to the south, is that it ?

quote:

About the borderlands, The problem for me was that there was a lakeside hex that would have blocked the historical assault by 2nd and 19th divisions towards Laatokka (Ladoga). Therefore, I had to give those two extra hexes for Finns, though the real border would be in the middle of hexes. So, since the distance from border to Laatokka in reality was less than 100 km, I decided to include those two hexes.

About the lake hexside, it is not continuous, there is a land hexside in between the 2 northern lake hexside, through wich the historical assault by 2nd and 19th divisions towards Laatokka (Ladoga) could have been driven. We already had a lot of discussions early on about these 2 hexes, whever they should be or not included in the Finnish Borderlands, and we concluded they should, so I think they will stay that way.

Also, are your source map visible as files, or not ? It could be interesting for me to actually see them.

quote:

I do not know what is the best for the gameplay, see what you think.

For the N/D 41 scenario, the only difference is the Karhumäki-Poventsa area that was not taken untill 06.12.41 and Hanko which the Russians evacuated, with substancial  losses on the way, by 04.12.41.
Oops, the area (hex) I am talking about is the one north of Ääninen (Onega) where the railroad is and the black line is one hex north of red.
Other than that the 1.1.42 map is accurate for the N/D 41 scenario.

OK, that's what I thought initialy.
So (correct me if I'm wrong) :
Major Edit :
- our M/J 1941 start line should be the same as the M/J 40 start line, that is the peace start line with the Finnish borderlands under Russian control.
- our 1941 start line is OK for the N/D 1941 scenario start except for 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end, and should go down to the river that link Lake Onega to Lake Ladoga.
- our 1942 start line should include that extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

quote:

Thanks for the feedback,
Pertti

No, thanks to you Pertti.
And thanks to the other Finnish & Swedish and Norwegians who contributed A LOT to this area.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/9/2007 11:55:24 AM >

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 38
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 11:48:38 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

Thank you for the elaborate answer.

And I don't want to hijack this thread.

I know it's a board game design issue - just being historical wrong in this special case. Maybe someday, after the upcoming Production in Flames, ADG will release a "China in Flames" (with CCP Partisan HQ's, instead of field HQ's, etc.).

I'd also love ADG to release this, along with an European sized China map.

You might send an email to Harry Rowland, ADG chief designer and director (at adg at spitfire dot com dot au), detailing your ideas & suggestions about that, and hinting at the European map version of the China map that he could take from MWiF.

(in reply to wosung)
Post #: 39
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 11:54:03 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pertti
Sorry, I missed that river (Syväri) between the lakes in the map. The Finnish line should be extended next to the river since that was the natural barrier where assault by 17th and 7th divisions was ordered to stop by Mannerheim 24.10.41. (have to read the hexes more throughly!)

Would you know the name of that Syväri river in English ?

Edit : Oops, forget that, it is the Svir, and its name is already on the map.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/9/2007 11:58:07 AM >

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 40
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 12:08:20 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I thought a closer view of the area under discussion might help clarify things.

The Svir river is mostly covered by the borderline between USSR and Karelia.

There are two start times for scenarios in 1941. This screen shot shows ownership just prior to Barbarossa.

The second startline would be for Nov/Dec 1941, just before the attack on Pearl Harbor. I guess the frontlines as of October 31, 1941 would be the best date to choose.

My knowledge on this topic is somewhere between scant and none. So I will rely on you-all to reach a consensus of opinion. The criteria are:
1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).





Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 41
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 2:42:15 PM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).



I believe #3 is the most important. Staying massively accurate to historical maps doesn't always translate well into games.

_____________________________

Integrity is what you do when nobody is watching.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 42
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 2:53:13 PM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		Here are two maps that I found in the internett. They should help to clarify the situation a bit.
This first one will show the summer 1941 borders before Continuation war.
The blue line in the map is just to show a new fortification line (Salpa-linja) that was build against Russia from 1940 on.
The dotted black line is the area lost to Soviet Union after Winter War on March 1940.

P.s. I try to avoid using Finnish names for places etc.





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Anendrue)
Post #: 43
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 3:07:09 PM   
Update


Posts: 122
Joined: 10/8/2007
Status: offline 		This second shows the Svir river front late July 1941.

Anyway, if needed I can try to post the actual maps I am using. I have them (along with a lot of other material) on DVD-rom, though they might be too large to fit here. Let me know if you need something more to make your decisions about the Finnish situation.

By the way, I have never played this boardgame, I just downloaded rules from the internett and read the minors section. Therefore, I am not qualified to say anything about balance of play:
quote:


ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).


So, I have no idea what this means. SORRY!

Have a nice day!

Pertti




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Post #: 44
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 3:38:59 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).


I think that I will do the following :

- M/J 40 & M/J 41 start lines : do nothing, as these are the normal borders & Finnish Borderlands.
- N/D 41 start lines : Keep our start line, except for 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end, and that it should go down to the river that link Lake Onega to Lake Ladoga. I'll look at the original WiF FE maps tonight to be sure that this is not too much, especially concerning point 3 above.
- M/J 42 start line : Should include that extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

Steve, can you confirm a point to me.
Is the MWiF "1941" start line the N/D 41 start line, or the M/J 41 start line ? At least for Finland / Karelia.

(in reply to Update)
Post #: 45
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 8:54:58 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).


I think that I will do the following :

- M/J 40 & M/J 41 start lines : do nothing, as these are the normal borders & Finnish Borderlands.
- N/D 41 start lines : Keep our start line, except for 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end, and that it should go down to the river that link Lake Onega to Lake Ladoga. I'll look at the original WiF FE maps tonight to be sure that this is not too much, especially concerning point 3 above.
- M/J 42 start line : Should include that extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

Steve, can you confirm a point to me.
Is the MWiF "1941" start line the N/D 41 start line, or the M/J 41 start line ? At least for Finland / Karelia.

As you said, the May/June start line (for scenarios Barbarossa and Lebensraum) are the country borders et al, so nothing special has to be done - I am assuming the borders are defined correctly. The program does not use the Alternative Control file in Europe for those scenarios.

The other scenarios that start in 1941 are for Nov/Dec (Day of Infamy and Waking Giant). The main concern with their start lines are for USSR vs. Axis in Europe since those battlelines changed a lot since May/June.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 46
RE: Start Lines in Scandinavia - 10/9/2007 10:14:01 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

1 - don't change from the WIF FE map unless there is an egregious error, or some other very compelling reason,
2 - physical/historical reality, and
3 - maintain the game play status quo with WIF FE (e.g., don't make changes that permit the Finns to make a devastating first attack that they won't be capable of doing in WIF FE).


I think that I will do the following :

- M/J 40 & M/J 41 start lines : do nothing, as these are the normal borders & Finnish Borderlands.
- N/D 41 start lines : Keep our start line, except for 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end, and that it should go down to the river that link Lake Onega to Lake Ladoga. I'll look at the original WiF FE maps tonight to be sure that this is not too much, especially concerning point 3 above.
- M/J 42 start line : Should include that extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

OK, I've looked at the WiF FE maps.
Changing the 1941, 1942 or later start line so that the area controlled by Finland goes down to the Svir river would go too far, as this area is still Russian on the WiF FE maps.
So, in virtue of point 1 from Steve above, with which I agree completely, I think it is better not to change that.
Even if not changing that, it would be easy for the German player if interested, to setup Finnish units there, and push to the historical start line in 1 impulse, so I think that this is not a big deal.

So, the projected changes are :
- 1941 (N/D) start lines : 1 extra Finnish hex near the white sea western end.
- 1942 (M/J) start line : 1 extra rail hex north of Lake Onega.

Would that fits better ?

(in reply to Froonp)
Post #: 47
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