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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up

 
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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up - 6/23/2007 11:57:19 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
The Japanese were still keeping Korea heavily garrisoned during WW II and they had siezed that in 1910.


Korea is part of the Kwantung Army and is heavily garrisoned in WITP. You can shuffle KA 8000+ assault points left and right but you have to keep them in the area.


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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up - 6/24/2007 12:14:06 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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Betio and Tarawa are not the same thing. The island of Betio is perhaps less than 1/15th of the whole Tarawa atoll (a rough estimate). Indeed, it was the only place occupied by Japanese in any force, and there were around 5.000 of them there.

Correct. The entire surface area of the islets of the Tarawa Atoll is about 31 sq. kilometers. Of course, three of them are currently under water due to changes in the current.

Had they, for any possible reason, occupied the whole atoll (the remaining 90%+ of the area), it is my impression they could have installed 30-40, perhaps even 50k people there easily. However, Admiral DadMan is perfectly correct then, when he says "If my opponent is stupid enough to strand 2 divisions on Tarawa... that's fine with me"

Currently around 30k people live there (on the WHOLE Tarawa atoll), quote from Wikipedia:

"The population (as of 1990) was 28,802. The population is mostly Gilbertese (Micronesian). This probably exceeds the carrying capacity of the islands and is maintained at its current level without starvation principly due to foreign aid, largely from New Zealand."

Given the low maintenance levels of IJN troops, I think 40-50k could be crammed there, + population that was there in WW2 period (certainly smaller than today) could have been removed by the Japanese or.... worse.... it's not like they were squeamish about those things. I'd consider that strategic insanity, and as USN would simply bypass and isolate that place (or overwhelm, to invest mucho points for ground losses that would ensue).


You left out the part that stated that the one islet where 28,000 of these folks live is probably the most densely populated area on earth...., and totally dependent on large and continual shipments of foodstuffs and water just to survive. The Japanese were on a starvation diet even in Japan during WW II. Their garrisons were expected to provide much of their food support themselves..., not to require large shipments of food and water on a regular basis. And atolls have no "fresh" water, and require de-salanization plants or tanker shipments if the population is to exceed what can be gathered from rain.

I think people here in general underestimate atolls..... because they look small on World Atlas maps.

And I think you are totally overestimating the "carrying capacity" of Atolls..., maybe because 95% of that "look small on a map" you mention is water in the lagoon. Tarawa today is a unique and rather non-representative example because of the enormous overcrowding on the one islet. Some better ones might be:

KWAJALEIN (the largest atoll in the world, and much more valuable to the Japanese), which has an above-water land mass of 6.33 square miles and a current population of about 10,000.

ENEWETOK which has an above water area of 2.26 square miles and a current population of less than 1,000

MILI which has a land mass of 6.15 square miles and a current population of about 1,000

WOTJE with a land mas of 3.16 square miles and a population at the last census of 646.

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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up - 6/24/2007 12:32:54 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

You left out the part that stated that the one islet where 28,000 of these folks live is probably the most densely populated area on earth...., and totally dependent on large and continual shipments of foodstuffs and water just to survive.
I think people here in general underestimate atolls..... because they look small on World Atlas maps.


Your soldiers in WITP are also dependant on getting supplies from the outside. If you leave them unsupplied they will die (and also become gradually LOT less efficient as a fighting unit in the process). You may argue whether this is simulated realistically or not, but that's another issue. And it cuts both ways (Allied and IJN).

quote:

KWAJALEIN (the largest atoll in the world, and much more valuable to the Japanese), which has an above-water land mass of 6.33 square miles and a current population of about 10,000.

ENEWETOK which has an above water area of 2.26 square miles and a current population of less than 1,000

MILI which has a land mass of 6.15 square miles and a current population of about 1,000

WOTJE with a land mas of 3.16 square miles and a population at the last census of 646.


Well those are simply less populated, so what? Why would anyone want to live there? I am sure you could find some with no population at all That does not tell us anything as regards to how many *military* people (especially Japanese) could survive on an atoll, given spartan conditions normal for all WW2 armies (especially Japanese, known to survive on bare minimum of necessities).

Mind you, at NO point am I telling that placing 40k soldiers on Tarawa is smart or recommended or should be done - on the contrary I think it's pretty stupid and easily punishable by your opponent, but it could be done easily, and IMO there's no point in placing artificial restrictions in the game.

BTW speaking of insanely densely inhabited atolls check out Male. 81 600 inhabitants on 1,5 square kilometers (I guess that's way less than a square mile in US measures) - it's also part of the larger atoll, Kaafu Atoll.

Yes it's ridicolous even for today's standards, but hey it can be done....

BTW I suggest you explore the Maldives on Google Earth, do the complete zoom in from above to realize how ridicolously small PART of the LARGER (yet also relatively small) atoll this thing is. It's even more ridicolous than Betio-to-Tarawa "ratio".







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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up - 6/24/2007 2:40:48 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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Nice photo..., now imagine what the casualties would be if the US Fifth Fleet was shelling and bombing it.
When you can show me that the casualty multiplier is significantly increased when you stuff more defenders onto a piece of land than can find places to hide maybe I'll buy some of your other arguements.

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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up - 6/24/2007 3:10:18 AM   
BrucePowers


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Wow, that's one crowded piece of real estate

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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up - 6/24/2007 3:12:40 AM   
dtravel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

quote:




I'm not using the game as a historical reference. Tarawa was one of the weakest defended in terms of straight numbers and I think that its unrealistic to use it as the standard for all other island defenses.

And while there is a physical limit to how many people can be stuffed in to a given area, it is not as low as you might think. The city I live in is only 17 square miles in size, with a good half of that undeveloped due to zoning and conservation laws, yet still has a population of over 55,000 in what is considered "low density" housing.


And how many hundreds of square miles of "hinterland" is needed to support the 3,236 people per square mile in this town? You know, the area where they grow the food and generate the power and dump the trash and sewage you folks generate. Also, you can't build much in the way of "high-rise" accomodations on an atoll islet that may be attacked and bombed.


Who says the Japanese garrison forces would be doing all that on the islands they occupy? I take it as a given that they aren't, otherwise why the need to ship in supplies?

quote:

quote:


Now, as for why players are putting so many more troops on these islands than was done in real life, I would suggest looking at the fact that in the game Japan has two to three times the shipping it did in real life and doesn't have to garrison anywhere except China and Manchuria. If the Japanese players had only half the shipping and had to maintain substantial garrison forces in SE Asia, the Philippines and the DEI then they probably wouldn't be putting five divisions on Tarawa.

I agree with you here, the designers gave the Japanese way too much shipping. They also made way to much of the IJA available for use in the Pacific by making garrisoning virtually unnecessary. The Japanese were still keeping Korea heavily garrisoned during WW II and they had siezed that in 1910.


*thumbs up*

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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up - 6/24/2007 3:55:59 AM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Nice photo..., now imagine what the casualties would be if the US Fifth Fleet was shelling and bombing it.


I never said it was a smart idea......

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RE: Limits for Atoll Islands build up - 6/24/2007 4:35:38 AM   
Titanwarrior89


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I think level 9 is just fine.  Some times I wonder if a house rule is only being used to pad the game in one way or another for a player who worries about the diffuculty in obtaining his objectives.   Level 9 is fine along with the amount of U.S. troops wading ashore(that the player wants to land).

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