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RE: Trying campaign against the AI

 
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RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 10:40:23 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		it [the forum] is open to all WitP players. Numerically speaking in terms of regular posters....you'll get mostly dedicated/frequent PBEM'ers so you may tend to see opinions favorinig PBEM over AI..... but there are plenty of vs. AI players out there.

I do both....or at least i try to when not fiddling with it.

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Post #: 31
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 10:44:15 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		The most knowledgeable are the PBEM players.

We've had more opportunity to see how far the mechanics can be twisted into something way far from anything that ever happened historically.

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(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 32
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 10:45:10 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		I'm afraid you're right.That's OK with me, of course.
However, I wished, the "AI Players" would raise their voice more often.
Especially because many AI bugs are of concern for both groups, PBEM and Solitair players as well.
And - but that potentially opens a can of worms - most "advice" to newbies about playing against AI is fairly biased or plain wrong, llike Halsey's

quote:

When you start a game against the AI.
Make sure you have all the settings turned on to build and receive replacements.

If you don't, the opposing side will dwindle away.


There is no way to change said settings for the opposing side. AI handles that. How WELL is a different question.

(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 33
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 10:48:36 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		The starting preferences do make a difference.

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Post #: 34
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 10:54:01 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		Your mastership in sardonism is not lost with me

A bit more on the serious side: for many people here (including me) English is not the native language. Therefor sometimes a witty remark may lead to misunderstandings.
However, I still admire and cherish the civilized manner of discussion in nearly all of the WitP forums. Much different to a lot of other forums I've seen.

Now back to bashing you, where were we?

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 35
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:02:45 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		There is a bug such that if the human player in a solo game sets all his units to not receive replacements, it is also applied to the AI units.  Its not a matter of being sardonic or sarcastic or word games in this case.

As for solo/AI players vs. PBEM players, yes, almost certainly the vast majority of the people who bought the game play solo.  But the vast majority of the posters here play either primarily or only PBEM.  And the collective voice of the posters in this forum influence what bugs and issues get addressed.

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This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 36
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:08:29 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

There is a bug such that if the human player in a solo game sets all his units to not receive replacements, it is also applied to the AI units. Its not a matter of being sardonic or sarcastic or word games in this case.


You're sure about that? I can't know because I always set all my forces to receive replacements (except air planes).
If and when you're right - which I do not dispute - this is a major bug and should be addressed asap (Don, Joe, you're listening?).

quote:

As for solo/AI players vs. PBEM players, yes, almost certainly the vast majority of the people who bought the game play solo. But the vast majority of the posters here play either primarily or only PBEM. And the collective voice of the posters in this forum influence what bugs and issues get addressed.


Full and violent agreement

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 37
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:17:15 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

quote:

There is a bug such that if the human player in a solo game sets all his units to not receive replacements, it is also applied to the AI units. Its not a matter of being sardonic or sarcastic or word games in this case.


You're sure about that? I can't know because I always set all my forces to receive replacements (except air planes).
If and when you're right - which I do not dispute - this is a major bug and should be addressed asap (Don, Joe, you're listening?).


I'm sure. It got reported and verified years ago.


_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 38
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:18:44 PM   
Yank


Posts: 175
Joined: 5/19/2004
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline 		Crap! I didn't know about that bug. I am into April 1942 in a game against the AI that I've been playing for weeks.

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 39
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:19:24 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		Pity we don't have a running list of "acknowledged" bugs.
But then again, no sane software publisher maintains such a list ...

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 40
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:30:31 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

Pity we don't have a running list of "acknowledged" bugs.
But then again, no sane software publisher maintains such a list ...

Actually, quite a number of them do.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 41
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:35:21 PM   
Oliver Heindorf


Posts: 1911
Joined: 5/1/2002
From: Hamburg/Deutschland
Status: offline 		hehe nice talking Rainer/halsey love ya guys.

in fact AI is a joke to any dedicated player. 1.3 or 1.6 ??? brouhgt some improvements but you are still able to get to the home islands by end of 42 no matter what even if you take things slow.

I dont blame Matrix/2by3 games because of that - the game is too much to handle for an AI yet - maybe in 25 years an AI could handle this monster - who knows ....

AI makes fun to play if you help him a bit here and there switching the game sometimes to human vs human to alter production and other major things. You can learn how to take defended positions etc.

But NEVER EVER put anything under computer control. Nothing. no Subs, no areas, not even the shoes of your grandma. not even the daily GIN/Tonic ration. it messes things up heavily and gives you NO advantage at all.








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(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 42
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:42:33 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		House Rules for Playing the AI as Japan on Hard, The AI cheats a little too much on very hard!

1. Use bombers to attack the AI's land units during Japanese Invasion, not ships, the AI throws away way to many ships in the early part of the game. Once allied 2 engine, 4 engine bombers gain experince, they become ship killers so use them to ports (supply or production centers like oil).

2. Playing CHS as allies, I increased Japan's aircraft ratings, durability, armor, etc. This will keep from breaking the back of the Japanese air power too early in the game. You won't win many air battles until late 1942 early 1943.

3. Using the editor I always give the Japanese additional air groups and some new ships in early 1943 stating in mar (2CV, 1 CVL, 2BB, 4CA, 1CS, 2CL, 16DD 12SS), replacing barges. If you don't have a major carrier battle in 1942 or lose one, 1943 can get real interesting!

4. Scenario editor, I always increase Japanes pilot pools (30 navy, 50 army per month with exp of 70).

5. I always try a new stratgy, sendings CVs to escort the evac of ships form the Philippines in Dec 1941. Take a northern route to victory, Wake, Midway, Markus Is, Saipan, Tinian, Guam, Pagan or try to invade Northern Japan in early 1943.

6. Start the allies with -300 political points so you can't strip the Dutch/French resource area.




(in reply to Dino)
Post #: 43
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/22/2007 11:57:09 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline 		As far as addressing pleas to Don to fix bugs, he is not listening. He faded quietly away from WiTP support almost as many months ago as I have fingers. Every once in a while he pops in with a comment or answer.

As for trying to get a bug fixed that is attributed to the AI player goes, I would say this has virtually no chance of occuring. There may be others that have been fixed, but the only real AI bug that affected the handling of the AI player that I can think of that was fixed was when back in the infancy of the game when the AI, as the Japanese player, would send the carrier fleet circling around Java time after time after time to the amusement of many. Now the carrier fleet wanders around out of fuel with significant system damage for weeks at a time and doesn't have sense enough to fill up the fuel tanks or get a little yard work done.

Bugs do get fixed that benefit both the AI and PBEM camps (those that affect general gameplay), and bugs get fixed that benefit the PBEM camp, but I honestly think that no more bugs will be fixed (or have been fixed in the last couple years) that will benefit the AI players. I'd love to be proven wrong and have some of the erratic AI behavior repaired.

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USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.

(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 44
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/23/2007 12:42:14 AM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		I think we can put this to rest now.
And apologies to Paul Roberts for hijacking his thread.
I hope the information given will be of some help for him and others trying to set up a game against AI.




(in reply to DD696)
Post #: 45
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/23/2007 1:37:00 AM   
PaulWRoberts

 

Posts: 897
Joined: 4/22/2001
Status: offline 		I think this thread has convinced me to go ahead and try my first game against a human. Thanks!




(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 46
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/23/2007 2:20:29 AM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		A couple of tips - I think - not mentioned here before:

You MUST set Zone NE to Human Control.
If you don't AI will hijack your Supply TFs and send them back to San Francisco. More precise: the TFs won't even leave. Same for Seattle, San Diego and Los Angeles. If you set Zone NE to Human Control everything will be fine.

You MUST set Zone S to Human Control.
If you don't some strange things will happen in Zone SE, like LCUs "warping", airplanes resetting their targets and missions from what you want them to do and so on. Don't ask me why that all is, but it is an acknowledged bug (and a very old one).

Set the Zones in the Zone Control Map (Key Z).

In contrast what many people say here I encourage you to try the Auto Convoy System. I use it all the time. While it is true that once in while a convoy tries to sail through contested waters (areas where the Japanese have air superiority with their long range bombers, in 1941/1942 mainly the Marshall and Gilbert Islands) you always can re-direct them if they come too close to areas where you don't want them to be. Usually the Auto Convoys try to avoid those areas (that was different with the very early versions of WitP where those convoys always tried the shortest route). I believe the Auto Convoy System has been improved with the introduction of ZOC (Zones of Control). At least in my last two grand campaigns I noticed a considerable improvement in the navigation of Auto Convoys. The convoys also try to avoid enemy subs.

If you set the British Area under Computer Control (Zones SW and W) be aware that you MUST set all ports to "Auto Convoy On". If you don't for some strange reasons supply convoys will be send from San Francisco to supply those ports. And these convoys never make it to the other side of the Pacific, of course.

When your campaign has developed into 1943 and you have the ports on northern Papua New Guinea (Biak, Sorong and the like) occupied you should be aware that these ports you should NOT set to "Auto Convoy On". That is because these ports the program tries to supply out of India, which doesn't work. India doesn't have enough resources, and the convoys will be slaughtered anyway. There is no work around as far as I know. You can supply these ports out of Darwin and, for instance, Guadalcanal. In order to have enough resources (supply and fuel) there, once in a while (every 3 months or so) form a very large convoy (I use 45 AKs and 15 TKs) in San Francisco and send it to Guadalcanal.

Otherwise go ahead and have fun fighting the AI. I sure have (Game Date Sep 3, 1944).

Cheers
Rainer

PS: And listen carefully to all the wise people here in the forum. Just make sure you don't believe EVERYTHING they say
It's a nice bunch of people anyway and they just want to help you to have more fun with the game.






(in reply to PaulWRoberts)
Post #: 47
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/23/2007 3:51:01 AM   
donkey_roxor

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 1/23/2007
Status: offline 		Hi,

I've been lurking here, but I just had to add my $0.02 -

I started a stock May 1942 campaign against the Japanese AI a couple of weeks back, latest patch, with no replacements, upgrades, or base upgrades as default. I just checked the Japanese side, and every unit has replacements allowed, upgrades allowed, and bases are being actively upgraded. This seems to contradict what was mentioned above - any thoughts or comments?

(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 48
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/23/2007 7:07:58 AM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: donkey_roxor

Hi,

I've been lurking here, but I just had to add my $0.02 -

I started a stock May 1942 campaign against the Japanese AI a couple of weeks back, latest patch, with no replacements, upgrades, or base upgrades as default. I just checked the Japanese side, and every unit has replacements allowed, upgrades allowed, and bases are being actively upgraded. This seems to contradict what was mentioned above - any thoughts or comments?


When first released the AI got no replacements if your own settings had them turned off. This was supposed to have been fixed in a later patch (1.2 or 1.3?) Those that are saying you must have replacements on either didn't know it was fixed or else don't believe it was fixed properly.


I only play against the AI and it's true that it doesn't play that well. However, as long as I play it straight it's OK. I usually end up quitting on the game because of other things rather than the poor AI. After every major patch I give it another chance. Although at its worst, WitP still beats Pacific General (IMO the "General" series is to wargames as "Diablo" is to CRPGs) :)

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(in reply to donkey_roxor)
Post #: 49
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/24/2007 4:35:18 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline

Just trying to save some players a headache of a restart.

Believe or don't believe.
Macht nichts.

Can't remember who originally posted the start screen preferences thing.
It was a while ago, but I trusted their input.

At least until I personally find out differently.



< Message edited by Halsey -- 6/24/2007 4:48:56 AM >

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Post #: 50
RE: Trying campaign against the AI - 6/24/2007 4:52:11 AM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: donkey_roxor

Hi,

I've been lurking here, but I just had to add my $0.02 -

I started a stock May 1942 campaign against the Japanese AI a couple of weeks back, latest patch, with no replacements, upgrades, or base upgrades as default. I just checked the Japanese side, and every unit has replacements allowed, upgrades allowed, and bases are being actively upgraded. This seems to contradict what was mentioned above - any thoughts or comments?


This is good news.
Maybe it has been knowingly or unknowingly fixed.

Maybe we can get a beta tester to verify this.

Any takers?


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(in reply to donkey_roxor)
Post #: 51
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