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Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 5:01:21 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		okay, I only have 2 games under my belt, so do not have all that much time into the game

but, I don't understand the logic

I can see it, if the Axis is not takeing Oil Fields or are being bombed (IE, 8th, 15th, BC and the Russian Ground troops, is the reason the Axis have Oil trouble in real life)

in my last game, I took out the English Isles, the Middle East, and Russia, why do I have Oil trouble ?



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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 5:12:57 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		You took out England and Russia..... doesn't sound like your have oil trouble to me.....

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 5:13:42 AM   
YohanTM2

 

Posts: 1143
Joined: 10/7/2002
From: Toronto
Status: offline 		How much armor, air etc. did you build? Maybe too much?

If not, not good.

I just started a PBEM game with oil on so will keep you posted.

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Post #: 3
RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 6:37:09 AM   
IrishGuards


Posts: 542
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		In the games I am playing Oil .... Germany is going through the stuff like water ...
Moving ground troops soaks it up .. Invading neutrals ... no oil there ..!!!
Builds is 1 thing ... Fleet uses Oil like crazy ..
I have even had warnings from the game ....

And why if I am going through all this oil ,,, some of my air is 3 supply
Norway and N Afr ...
I say every little bit helps ... Where are my Synth plants ...
Where are the oil feilds in Austria .... I don't see em on the map ..
IDG

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 7:56:47 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: IrishDragoonGuards

In the games I am playing Oil .... Germany is going through the stuff like water ...
Moving ground troops soaks it up .. Invading neutrals ... no oil there ..!!!
Builds is 1 thing ... Fleet uses Oil like crazy ..
I have even had warnings from the game ....

And why if I am going through all this oil ,,, some of my air is 3 supply
Norway and N Afr ...
I say every little bit helps ... Where are my Synth plants ...
Where are the oil feilds in Austria .... I don't see em on the map ..
IDG


well, that is the point, with out the Bombing Campaign and the Russian ground troops overrunning the fields, the Axis, while a concern, were not "short", and if they are able to capture fields they did not during the war, and keep what they got intact, then they really shouldn't be having trouble

I mean, crippling the oil supply of the Axis should be a major goal of the Allies, not a "given" since it did happen

(of course, we can turn that off, but it was posted the game was designed with Oil turned on in mind)

also, when Romy joins the Axis, why are there oil fields not listed as being part of the Axis ?

the hassle being, it forces the Human player to do stuff that wasn't done, just to keep going


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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 8:01:54 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

How much armor, air etc. did you build? Maybe too much?

If not, not good.

I just started a PBEM game with oil on so will keep you posted.


I can't get to the auto save to check (started a new game)

but I think it was 14 Armor and 6 Air

which in 42-43, I had 6 Armor and 4 air (4 of the Armor were in England, I was able to pull out two of them ship them to northern Russian)(I went with Inf Corps over Motorized)



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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 11:03:55 AM   
Dave Ferguson

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		fourteen armour!. no wonder you have oil problems, if all that lot move it is 42 oil points and another 42 if they all fight, and does that include defending

I wonder if the Rumanian wells are factored into the basic german supplies?

In my present game it is manpower that is the problem, well in the red and nearing zero

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 11:51:11 AM   
firepowerjohan


Posts: 378
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		Running out of oil stores and oil production is not the same thing. Having 0 oil just means you have nothing stored but since you get production each turn you can move some units. Simply if you collect 40 oil per turn and have units consuming 60 oil if all moved means you can in fact move two thirds of them.

There is always a limit but since you conquered USSR and are winning the game means you are not taking much losses. That means you can keep building armour until you reach your cap. Try to reduce oil consumption by using railroad more often even if it cost some production points overusing it. The default option in game is that oil consumption is off so this feature is for the experts who know the tricks. Also remember that even if you run out of oil you will get oil points every turn which means you can move some units but not all.



< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 6/25/2007 1:09:55 PM >

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 12:02:37 PM   
Dave Ferguson

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		what happens when your manpower reaches zero

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 1:17:28 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		You also receive a small boost of manpower every turn, I believe it is based on the starting manpower?

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 2:46:10 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
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From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

what happens when your manpower reaches zero


well, before you get to 0, you get messages that you are running low and are getting poor troop replacements, after that, you start getting really poor replacements

once you run out, you get very lousy troops

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 2:54:01 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

fourteen armour!. no wonder you have oil problems, if all that lot move it is 42 oil points and another 42 if they all fight, and does that include defending

I wonder if the Rumanian wells are factored into the basic german supplies?

In my present game it is manpower that is the problem, well in the red and nearing zero


14 Armour in overall setting is not really a lot, how else are you going to defeat the Russian Hordes ?

a level 22 tank, will not kill a Partasen unit out of supply in one battle, let alone a supplied and high level Russian Armour unit

(one thing odd, the USSR units were very high level, the US and UK units that tried to land in France in late 44, were low level, and hopelessly out classed by my western forces (in fact, since the IT had manpower, I started building and shifting IT Inf Corps, and a level 14 Inf will beat a level 4 Armour unit any day of the week)

(just in case, if you click on Upgrade, it shows your current level and the level you can upgrade to, along with what level the enemy units are at)



< Message edited by Hard Sarge -- 6/25/2007 2:56:05 PM >

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 7:17:43 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		already have said something about Oil, but other things that seem odd

how small the French army is, it was larger then the Germen Army, just not as well trained or lead (and in most cases, very high command let the troops in the field down, not the troops)(also, the French had more tanks, and in some areas, better tanks (Armor and Guns) while the GE had better training and planning on how to best use there tanks)

also, the English had a larger Industy base then the GE did, yes Land lease was of major importence, but they were still able to build things (the most importent thing about land lease, was it allowed the English to build what they wanted to build, while buying what they didn't) 

also, strange in these kinds of games, why does the WWI attack plan work so well, when it failed (well, with out total FOW I guess it would be impossible to pull off Von Mansteins wonder)



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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 9:22:44 PM   
bssybeep


Posts: 237
Joined: 6/5/2007
Status: offline 		Hard Sarge,

I totally agree with your Axis oil comments.  I captured the majority of the oil rigs on the map and I still run short every turn.  Air and naval really suck it up.  Personally I think it is a bug, if I capture most of the oil rigs on the map, I should be getting more than the measly 60 or so barrels every turn.  I agree that the Axis oil shortages should not be a given in game terms.  In my game I have England, France and most of Russia.  I should not be running out of oil every turn.

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Post #: 14
RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 9:39:24 PM   
targul


Posts: 449
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline 		If you have captured that much you must have a huge army and it is probably of the oil using units.  It also means you have a vast empire to support.  Sounds about right to me. 

Good to see some controls on the Panzer Pushers.

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Post #: 15
RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 9:58:51 PM   
IrishGuards


Posts: 542
Joined: 12/7/2006
Status: offline 		Well does not make sense to me ....
With the Strategic deployment very limited ..... And I mean very limited ...
When Italy comes on the Axis can rail move just 2 units a turn ... what a riot ..
This means they have limited the Rail net to balance the game ... with it being unbalanced by Oil usage ... 7 extra PP for 1 rail move ..
That's what you get from Poland every 2 turns ...
Axis has to attack neutrals .. Otherwise no more PP's .. and yet you do not benefit in any plunder of Armed forces or raw materials ..
Plus the game only gives you 50% value for conquered resources ...
That means to attack and take a neutral out for the limited amount you will get ... you have used more Oil than you will ever see in PP ...
This is without even factoring In any Allied response ....
If I am running out of Oil in Early 1941 before Russia is even attacked .. this is a huge issue ...
Strategic games mean that new startegies must .. !! be a given in the game ..
Otherwise no flavor whatsoever ...
Nay makes sense to me ..
IDG

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Post #: 16
RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 10:25:40 PM   
Dave Ferguson

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bssybeep

Hard Sarge,

I totally agree with your Axis oil comments.  I captured the majority of the oil rigs on the map and I still run short every turn.  Air and naval really suck it up.  Personally I think it is a bug, if I capture most of the oil rigs on the map, I should be getting more than the measly 60 or so barrels every turn.  I agree that the Axis oil shortages should not be a given in game terms.  In my game I have England, France and most of Russia.  I should not be running out of oil every turn.

England, France and most of russia wont give you any more oil, England and France dont have any and only the russian caucasus field will do that, plus your occupation armies are going to use oil even if not represented in the game.

Panzers are nice but motorized corps use a lot less oil and are higher quality for just over half the price. If you are not facing hordes of tanks you dont need large numbers yourself, just a few to punch the hole. Use the motorized to exploit

< Message edited by Dave Ferguson -- 6/25/2007 10:26:06 PM >

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 10:34:55 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		well

how does the AI do it ?

you say I had too many Oil burnings, I started a Allied game, in 41, the Axis has at least 4 GE Subs

I see (FOW on) at least 7 Axis Armor (1 It) (not counting the 3 I have taken out), I see as many Motor units as Armor, plus, I seen at least 5 Fighters (6 if the Romy one is counted) 3 Tac Air

plus, the Tac Air is showing as 110s, so advanced, the Armor is at level 6

that is alot of newly bought units, besides the reseach costs, upgrade costs

Hmmm the GE have lost close to 4500 tanks so far, so replacement costs should also been pretty high

(may not be realistic, but it is a bit of a challenge at the start)



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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/25/2007 11:42:27 PM   
targul


Posts: 449
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline 		Personnally, when I played the Axis I found oil was short in my first game when I abused oil.  After that I developed infantry they require zero oil.  I moved tanks only when it counted.  I normally moved all oil using units with my two rail.

I only use air when it is necessary.  What I am saying I learned not to overuse my oil.  I watch it very closely and determine when I will use tanks, motorized infantry and air when it really necessary. 

I take towns so I can move my oil units up.  They dont use much if they only attack and advance is free after that.  So I let those greeding Russians come and get it.

Works good for me but did require me to learn how vital oil was to my army.

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 3:45:58 AM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		Yes, but you miss the point

if you are able to take the Major Oil fields the Axis were not able to take, and also do not let the Allied take (knock out) the Oil fields you do have, you shouldn't have trouble with lack of Oil

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 5:59:46 AM   
willgamer


Posts: 902
Joined: 6/2/2002
From: Huntsville, Alabama
Status: offline 		Still doing the tutorial, but I'd like to understand this oil issue better...

Do any of the reports in the game allow the Axis player to verify that captured oil is being added to the oil pool?

Is there any kind of breakdown of where the oil comes from and how much?

Can oil usage be verified, if desired, to be correct in each situation?

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 6:30:59 AM   
targul


Posts: 449
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline 		Not sure why you feel if you capture those oil fields are your problems with oil would be over.  Every nation in the war had oil shortages.  As it was what all armies ran on using it at the rate it was being used meant the refineries just could not keep up. 

I can complete understand your lack of oil since that is exactly the same shortage every nation was feeling.  I do not know of any nation who had all the oil they needed during the war.  So if you had such a far flung empire and so many units regardless of what you captured if you did not have your general categories also maxed I would suspect shortages.  Even with them maxed I am not sure there would be enough but you would have a better chance.

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 11:34:08 AM   
firepowerjohan


Posts: 378
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		One thing about the oil shortage that help the game is that the bulk of forces remains the corps. Without oil restriction you would be able to have a high tech armour being your bulk unit. Imagine Axis invading USSR with only armour units, would that be realistic?

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Lead developer of:
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Post #: 23
RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 1:24:39 PM   
HansBolter


Posts: 7704
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From: United States
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

One thing about the oil shortage that help the game is that the bulk of forces remains the corps. Without oil restriction you would be able to have a high tech armour being your bulk unit. Imagine Axis invading USSR with only armour units, would that be realistic?



And when you play the game that way you run smack up against the manpower limitations.

I built a conservatively balanced army with a bulk of corps and a modest armor and air force. I gave up the naval war after watching every sub I built get sunk after sinking 10 transports so there was no naval drain on the oil supply. I took the middle east oil fields, but not the Caucus ones and was marginally able to sustain my army with oil, but I literally RAN OUT of manpower by the end of 1943.

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 1:27:53 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
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quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

One thing about the oil shortage that help the game is that the bulk of forces remains the corps. Without oil restriction you would be able to have a high tech armour being your bulk unit. Imagine Axis invading USSR with only armour units, would that be realistic?


interesting, I didn't think it was Oil that stopped the player from building Armor units, I think cost is more importent, and Armor with out being able to upgrade it, is worthless, so again, it is cost in reseach to be able to reseach, cost as in the cost to do the upgrades (not to mention the time it takes)

plus it does not seem to stop the AI from building hordes of Armor

I do not mind the idea of Oil being a limiting factor, but I think it should be made a target, a reason for the Allies to spend the money and time and reseach to make long range bombers, to take into effect what the battle plans are

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 1:35:46 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: targul

Not sure why you feel if you capture those oil fields are your problems with oil would be over.  Every nation in the war had oil shortages.  As it was what all armies ran on using it at the rate it was being used meant the refineries just could not keep up. 

I can complete understand your lack of oil since that is exactly the same shortage every nation was feeling.  I do not know of any nation who had all the oil they needed during the war.  So if you had such a far flung empire and so many units regardless of what you captured if you did not have your general categories also maxed I would suspect shortages.  Even with them maxed I am not sure there would be enough but you would have a better chance.


you don't think that takeing some of the worlds largest Oil Fields in the world at the time, would not help the Oil drain ?

and again, the main reason the Axis had a Oil hassle in the late war, was the fact that BC and the 8th and 15th Airforces bombed them into ruble, and the Russians ground forces over ran the ones in the East

besides, based on the size of the units, I do not believe my Army was bigger then the real German Army

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 1:43:53 PM   
Dave Ferguson

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		These problems are probably down to scenario balancing issues, and the longer the scenario the more difficult this is, especially if you take into account the butterfly effect. ( a dicision you make in 1939 might make a BIG difference in 1944)

When you play v human the problem is even worse as casualty rates soar, so think the game is not balanced for human v human play.

Back to the oil issue. If you have captured the Caucasus oil fields you have won the war anyway? just sit back on the defensive and conserve resources. Keep Italy in the war and use their manpower for garrisons to block invasions. Use the panzers as a counterattack force, counterattack is far more destructive to the defender who already has a reduced effectiveness/casualties.

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 2:00:20 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

These problems are probably down to scenario balancing issues, and the longer the scenario the more difficult this is, especially if you take into account the butterfly effect. ( a dicision you make in 1939 might make a BIG difference in 1944)

When you play v human the problem is even worse as casualty rates soar, so think the game is not balanced for human v human play.

Back to the oil issue. If you have captured the Caucasus oil fields you have won the war anyway? just sit back on the defensive and conserve resources. Keep Italy in the war and use their manpower for garrisons to block invasions. Use the panzers as a counterattack force, counterattack is far more destructive to the defender who already has a reduced effectiveness/casualties.


well, just because you got the Oil Fields don't mean you won (but will concede, that if you can take and hold the Russian Oil Fields, there pretty much is no Russian left :)

again, I think it will depend on how you play, a US/GB heavy in Airpower, will take out anything (unless the other side is heavy in fighters, which still runs into the same Oil burn issues)

(my last game as Allies, I was running into Ge Tanks, that when I surrounded them, my best Tanks units were at a 1-11 odds if they attacked, tended to not attack, with them being out of supply, but they could be worned down with FB attacks)

(very odd war, I took out Berlin before I could do anything with Rome, and then took Rome on what I think would of been the last turn)



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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 4:50:31 PM   
TPM

 

Posts: 349
Joined: 2/8/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Yes, but you miss the point

if you are able to take the Major Oil fields the Axis were not able to take, and also do not let the Allied take (knock out) the Oil fields you do have, you shouldn't have trouble with lack of Oil


Well, this makes sense to me. IF you've got roughly the same amount of armor and air that the Germans did historically (don't know if that's possible to figure out in this game) in, let's say, the beginning of 1943, and you've got all those Russian oil fields in the Caucasus, you shouldn't have the same oil problems that Germany had historically. I'm not saying you shouldn't have any problems, I'm just saying there should be a difference. Wasn't that the point of Operation Blue in the first place?

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RE: Axis and Oil - 6/26/2007 5:03:35 PM   
Syagrius

 

Posts: 165
Joined: 5/12/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

fourteen armour!. no wonder you have oil problems, if all that lot move it is 42 oil points and another 42 if they all fight, and does that include defending

I wonder if the Rumanian wells are factored into the basic german supplies?

In my present game it is manpower that is the problem, well in the red and nearing zero

Same for me, manpower is more an issue than oil. In fall of 1944 my MP was UNDER zero. I got messages I was recruiting kids in the German army

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