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RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/27/2007 4:55:22 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Naskra

Welcome to the forum, grumpyman.  As you can see, the forum is an active place, and some of the members suffer from hyperactivity.  There are many knowledgeable and helpful people here.  It's unfortunate your first post got the bejeezus spammed out of it.

But normal. (Getting threadjacked and spammed that is. ) So there's nothing personal about it.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Naskra)
Post #: 31
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/27/2007 7:06:29 AM   
grumpyman


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Naskra

Welcome to the forum, grumpyman.  As you can see, the forum is an active place, and some of the members suffer from hyperactivity.  There are many knowledgeable and helpful people here.  It's unfortunate your first post got the bejeezus spammed out of it.

But normal. (Getting threadjacked and spammed that is. ) So there's nothing personal about it.


Thanks again. I must note that as of a few minutes before this post, as predicted by some posters, the Japanese AI did do something incredibly stupid and paid for it by losing 4 fleet carriers to my none. I finally got my midway, be it 11/30/42 in the Coral Sea.

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 32
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/29/2007 10:43:31 PM   
grumpyman


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		I am going to make what is hopefully the post to this thread and recap a few things I have learned.  Perhaps it will help someone else who is as new and dumb as me.  First, except for lessons learned, the month and 1/2 I spend on this campaign has been a waste.  It is not the games fault, but my misunderstanding of the game.  Perhaps a little background is in order.  My guess is (I could be wrong) I am much older than most in this forum, being in my fifties (yeah a little old to being computer games).  The last war games I played were the old avalon hill board games back in the 60s and early seventies.  These were casual games you played while listening to the latest Led Zeppelin album.  Ok, maybe 1914 was not a casual game, but I hope you get my point.  WITP on the other hand is about as complex as I would ever want to get in a game.  Just to take Buna, which up to this point I have failed to do with 3 infantry divisions, a tank brigade, a field artillery unit, and a Corps headquarters, it now appears takes months of planning and gathering of resources. At the same time I must supply and defend all the bases that I do control.  Well playing the game as I have, not understanding the mechanics of play, and playing one turn at a time everything is FUBAR.  I have come to the conclusion that the campaign I am currently playing is unsalvagable.  Let me get on to what I have learned from your responses on this thread.

1) plan ahead

2) read "the must read threads", they can drive me crazy getting to the real meat, but they are to important to pass up.  The first thing I discovered was that I was seriously behind in my version level.

3) My major gripe was units ignoring orders.  Putting everything except the West, North West, and South West under human control has solved this problem.  I'm sure this will vary by player, side, time, and campaign.

4) play smaller scenerios first. The game is just to d**n complex to start with a campaign. 

5) plan ahead.

6) plan ahead. 

< Message edited by grumpyman -- 6/29/2007 10:48:00 PM >

(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 33
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/29/2007 10:51:51 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

I am much older than most in this forum

May be not, I'm 60
And from the service time some have in their signatures they also can't be in their thirties
Cheers and have fun
Rainer

PS: WitP is not a computer game

(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 34
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/29/2007 10:54:45 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Ya, the game is less about fighting battles (which with the way the game is designed, the player can't really do) and more about the operational planning and logistics.  You set things up for the battle, assigning the units and their support, getting and keeping them supplied, and then the program gets to go do the fun part and actually fight the battle for you.

As an early representative of the developers once said, "The player is not the commander, he's the commander's staff."

(Oh, and I think you'll be surprised by how old some of the old fogies around here are.    )

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 35
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/29/2007 11:02:22 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

and then the program gets to go do the fun part


So a more appropriate title would have been "Sweating it out in the Pacific" (like Nimitz during the Battle at Midway)
I think your description is absolutely correct.
Cheers
Rainer

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 36
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 1:11:56 AM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: grumpyman

I am going to make what is hopefully the post to this thread and recap a few things I have learned.  Perhaps it will help someone else who is as new and dumb as me.  First, except for lessons learned, the month and 1/2 I spend on this campaign has been a waste.  It is not the games fault, but my misunderstanding of the game.  Perhaps a little background is in order.  My guess is (I could be wrong) I am much older than most in this forum, being in my fifties (yeah a little old to being computer games).  The last war games I played were the old avalon hill board games back in the 60s and early seventies.  These were casual games you played while listening to the latest Led Zeppelin album.  Ok, maybe 1914 was not a casual game, but I hope you get my point.  WITP on the other hand is about as complex as I would ever want to get in a game.  Just to take Buna, which up to this point I have failed to do with 3 infantry divisions, a tank brigade, a field artillery unit, and a Corps headquarters, it now appears takes months of planning and gathering of resources. At the same time I must supply and defend all the bases that I do control.  Well playing the game as I have, not understanding the mechanics of play, and playing one turn at a time everything is FUBAR.  I have come to the conclusion that the campaign I am currently playing is unsalvagable.  Let me get on to what I have learned from your responses on this thread.

1) plan ahead

2) read "the must read threads", they can drive me crazy getting to the real meat, but they are to important to pass up.  The first thing I discovered was that I was seriously behind in my version level.

3) My major gripe was units ignoring orders.  Putting everything except the West, North West, and South West under human control has solved this problem.  I'm sure this will vary by player, side, time, and campaign.

4) play smaller scenerios first. The game is just to d**n complex to start with a campaign. 

5) plan ahead.

6) plan ahead. 

I date even earlier than you do--I owned a copy of Tactics II.

I made the same mistakes, and started several campaigns. Eventually I was able to beat the AI, but the tactics I learned were wrong once I started playing by e-mail. I'd recommend playing against live opponents, but stick with ones who stay within realistic bounds. The game engine has its problems, and you have to learn how to make it do what you want. Try a CHS scenario, and after you do that, try Treespider's scenario. Enjoy a system that allows you to explore why commanders did what they did.

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 37
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 2:03:04 AM   
DD696

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline 		I still own a copy of Tactics II, along with a few hundred games since.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 38
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 3:14:46 AM   
grumpyman


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


I date even earlier than you do--I owned a copy of Tactics II.

I made the same mistakes, and started several campaigns. Eventually I was able to beat the AI, but the tactics I learned were wrong once I started playing by e-mail. I'd recommend playing against live opponents, but stick with ones who stay within realistic bounds. The game engine has its problems, and you have to learn how to make it do what you want. Try a CHS scenario, and after you do that, try Treespider's scenario. Enjoy a system that allows you to explore why commanders did what they did.


Tactics II was the first war game I played, though a friend owned it. Waterloo was the first one I bought, dozens more after that. I can't believe I'm getting into these games again.

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 39
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 3:21:39 AM   
grumpyman


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DD696

I still own a copy of Tactics II, along with a few hundred games since.


This is really getting off the topic, but I see by your sig you were in the suck the same time I was. As for Tactics II I think that and gettysburg were the only two with the square
grids.

(in reply to DD696)
Post #: 40
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 8:18:23 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


Try a CHS scenario, and after you do that, try Treespider's scenario. Enjoy a system that allows you to explore why commanders did what they did.





Thanks for the endorsement! v1.4 will be released by July 4 then it will be frozen barring any major errors...

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 41
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 8:38:21 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Don't worry Grumpyman, most of us have started and restarted the grand campaign a few times. I've yet to complete a game vs the AI, mainly due to restarts when new versions are released. The AI won't follow the same exact invasion schedule, so restarts won't totally ruin your enjoyment of the game.

And Welcome Aboard. If you enjoyed 1914, Third Reich, or The Longest Day (all AH, though that last one may not have arrived until the eighties so you may not be familiar with it), you've got the wherewithal to become addicted to WITP.

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 42
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 2:07:22 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		As far as age goes, you are dragging me along with you.....slow down!

I can no longer claim to be in my early 40s {and nobody thought I'd live to see 30}. There is nothing wrong with computer gaming.....a mantra I keep chanting in the hopes of enlightening my wife.

I too have restarted many times without finishing a full campaign. With a game this large, I imagine that is more the norm. CHS is GREAT. Load it up and restart. Consider your old campaign to be Staff School or the tutorial.

And just think of all the time you will have to play WITP when you retire. And savor the envy of all of us knowing that you will get to retire before us.

(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 43
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 2:52:24 PM   
Charles2222


Posts: 3993
Joined: 3/12/2001
Status: offline 		grumpyman: I'm in my late forties, and if I'm not playing wargames in my fifties I will be very disappointed. Maybe you can try this on for size; it fits me anyway. First of all, I'm single and live alone, so there's only one person who can get upset if I'm undisciplined enough to favor gametime over things that need to be done at the house. Lastly, wargames are a lot cleaner and moral than 99% of the garbage on tv.

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 44
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 4:56:49 PM   
DD696

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 7/9/2004
From: near Savannah, Ga
Status: offline 		I'd also recommend giving Treespider's new version a try once he releases it. He has taken the latest and greatest CHS version and updated/improved it. I also have never completed an AI game. There has always been some bug or data discrepancy that starts grating on me until I have to start over. The name of this game should have been "Restart the War in the Pacific". I think it is safe to say that we are all experts on the first 6-18 months of the war and that very few have ventured into the 44-45 era, so there exists little data/experience to let us know what to expect when we do get there. I've made it into 44 twice, once currently and then one other time when I noticed that the Jap AI wasn't doing much of anything. Went head-to-head with myself and found out that the Jap ecomony had shut down. Appeared to have oil, resources, etc, but it just decided not to play anymore. That was a kick in the pants after all the time put into it.

I'd recommend just jumping into the campaign now that you've had your "tutorial". Just remember that the AI will do very stupid things and sometimes you have to just ignore very tempting targets else you find yourself playing a game later on where you had sunk the entire Jap warfleet in 42 and you are just moving units around the map with no opposition.

As for the USMC, I was in San Diego, Camp Pendelton, Subic Bay and Quantico with very short stretches at Taiwan, Okinawa and Japan.

Welcome to the game. It's going to frustrate you to no end, but they still keep plugging away and slowly fixing things. Even with all of it's flaws, it is still the best there is and it is the cheapest entertainment you will ever have.

_____________________________

USMC: 1970-1977. A United States Marine.
We don't take kindly to idjits.

(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 45
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 8:52:20 PM   
hgilmer

 

Posts: 184
Joined: 6/2/2007
From: Birmingham, Alabama
Status: offline 		    You're post is the very reason I was putting off trying to play the game.  I was afraid of playing for months and then making a huge blunder that is hard to recover from.  Yes, I know you can save, but restarting from a saved game after I've made a mistake is so unsatisfying to me.

I'm glad that others have shared their experiences with making mistakes and starting over.

(in reply to DD696)
Post #: 46
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 10:43:23 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

and you are just moving units around the map with no opposition


Well, not entirely true.
I'm in Sep 44 (Allied vs AI) and preparing to assault Tinian and Davao.
There IS opposition, trust me.
The title of the game is "War in the Pacific", not "Move your Carriers around until the Enemy has no Carriers left"
Cheers
Rainer

(in reply to DD696)
Post #: 47
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 11:01:30 PM   
grumpyman


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hgilmer

    You're post is the very reason I was putting off trying to play the game.  I was afraid of playing for months and then making a huge blunder that is hard to recover from.  Yes, I know you can save, but restarting from a saved game after I've made a mistake is so unsatisfying to me.

I'm glad that others have shared their experiences with making mistakes and starting over.



I am still not turned off to the big campaign. I think the lesson is the big campaign should be a goal. I have gone back to the smaller scenarios and am making mistakes there also, I just yesterday totally screwed the pooch in the marianas campaign, but again I learned something without the huge investment in time. I will go back to that campaign (the marianas), next time, a little wiser. I should back up a bit and say these mistakes are not a total waste. Doing the marianas campaign was a richer experience because of mistakes and lessons learned in the big campaign. My point is that I could have learned those lessons in a smaller campaign. As an example, in the marianas what killed me, on analysis, was being to casual in regards to intelligence. I let the AI catch me with my pants down because I would just glance at the intelligence instead of really analyizing it. What I plan to do today is give a shot to the Guadalcanal scenario and I will probably be better at the game and screw something royally learning another lesson. I also have faith I will enjoy the game more because I know more. To go back the grand campaign and it being a goal and all that. It is not even my next goal. My next goal is to understand WITP enough to play by mail.

(in reply to hgilmer)
Post #: 48
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 6/30/2007 11:23:55 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Currently in June '45 against the AI.  Moping up (or at least trying to mop up  ) on Okinawa and getting ready to land on the Home Islands.  (So I won on points a long time ago, who cares.  I WANT TO INVADE JAPAN!!   )

As for restarting all the time, why?  You think the real life commanders didn't fark up?  This is a long game and there is time to recover from mistakes (at least as the Allies there is  ) and part of the satisfaction is picking things back up and not bleeping up a second time.  Besides, you'll learn more that way and if PBEM is your goal you'll be better prepared for when your opponent smacks you around.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 49
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 7/1/2007 12:09:11 AM   
FAdmiral


Posts: 378
Joined: 12/20/2002
From: Atlanta,GA, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

quote:

I am much older than most in this forum

May be not, I'm 60
And from the service time some have in their signatures they also can't be in their thirties
Cheers and have fun
Rainer

PS: WitP is not a computer game


I'm 68 now and have most of you beat in that department. As for a game of this
complexability, I wish it did more. At least I get to control it all, which is a big +.
Historically, no one man did it all. But I loved & played the original PacWar many,
many times. I am playing this one slowly, day by day, and doing much reading and
thinking between moves. As the Allies playing against the Japanese AI now at
Aug. 42, I had hoped for a little more aggressive game but it still is very entertaining.
NOW, lets tie in some tactical drop down maps like in the Total War series to really
get the action moving....

JIM


< Message edited by FAdmiral -- 7/1/2007 10:16:18 PM >

(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 50
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 7/1/2007 5:20:08 AM   
grumpyman


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FAdmiral


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

I'm 68 now and have most of you beat in that department.


Why does this statement make me think we're going to hearing from the guys in their 80s now?

(in reply to FAdmiral)
Post #: 51
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 7/1/2007 10:19:54 PM   
FAdmiral


Posts: 378
Joined: 12/20/2002
From: Atlanta,GA, USA
Status: offline 		If we start hearing from the 80+ year olds, they will be able to give us first hand info
on all our discussions here since they would have been in the war....

JIM

(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 52
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 7/2/2007 9:10:13 AM   
whippleofd

 

Posts: 617
Joined: 12/23/2005
Status: offline 		Welcome to the addiction that is WiTP!

Speaking of age...not mine mind you (I'm 44) but my wifes grandfather. They came out for a visit this week and come to find out he was on the Oklahoma at Pearl. I've only met the gentleman one other time and that was around 25 years ago when I was a tad wet behind the ears to get into any deep and meaningful discussions. It was VERY interesting listening to his stories, and a tad humbleing I might add.

Sorry for the hijack.

I've been playing this monster for 1.5 years now and have never progressed past summer 43 for various reasons. I don't have the reliable time to commit to a PBEM so it's the AI for me. Keep it historically realistic: In other words act like a commander of WW2 time and not like an all powerful all knowing "gawd" and the AI does well enough for itself.

Play CHS, it's better than stock by a country mile. You didn't specifically mention it in your posts, but I can't emphasize enough getting your land units up to a 100 prep level for the target, esp when doing amphib invasions. This makes a huge differance!!!!!

Enjoy yourself. Games are supposed to be fun.

Whipple

_____________________________

MMCS(SW/AW) 1981-2001
1981 RTC, SD
81-82 NPS, Orlando
82-85 NPTU, Idaho Falls
85-90 USS Truxtun (CGN-35)
90-93 USS George Washington (CVN-73)
93-96 NFAS Orlando
96-01 Navsea-08/Naval Reactors

(in reply to grumpyman)
Post #: 53
RE: A month of real into a campaign - 7/2/2007 9:41:23 AM   
grumpyman


Posts: 105
Joined: 6/26/2007
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Whipple

Welcome to the addiction that is WiTP!

Speaking of age...not mine mind you (I'm 44) but my wifes grandfather. They came out for a visit this week and come to find out he was on the Oklahoma at Pearl. I've only met the gentleman one other time and that was around 25 years ago when I was a tad wet behind the ears to get into any deep and meaningful discussions. It was VERY interesting listening to his stories, and a tad humbleing I might add.

Sorry for the hijack.

I've been playing this monster for 1.5 years now and have never progressed past summer 43 for various reasons. I don't have the reliable time to commit to a PBEM so it's the AI for me. Keep it historically realistic: In other words act like a commander of WW2 time and not like an all powerful all knowing "gawd" and the AI does well enough for itself.

Play CHS, it's better than stock by a country mile. You didn't specifically mention it in your posts, but I can't emphasize enough getting your land units up to a 100 prep level for the target, esp when doing amphib invasions. This makes a huge differance!!!!!

Enjoy yourself. Games are supposed to be fun.

Whipple


Sounds like it would be an interesting converation. My father was an infantryman in the Americal division. He was wounded in one of those bombardment runs down the slot. He was out of the war after that with a disability pension. I really didn't get any of those discussions with him. He was pretty closed lip about it. All the information about his service I got from my mother and he didn't tell her much. He met my mother in the 5th Army Hospital by the way.

(in reply to whippleofd)
Post #: 54
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