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Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 2:32:04 PM

Major Victory

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Having just entered the end of 1941 playing the allies, against a very competant human opponet, I am someone perflexed by the situation Russia is in. Basically the Axis show no signs of slowing there offensive, they threaten Moscow & Rostov and have free reign over the middle of the board and while I still retain Leningrad, there isn,t a soviet unit withen a light mile to support it when it is assaulted in 1942.

Where are the Siberians?
Where is the mud?
What happened to the harsh Russian winter?
How is the soviet rail gauge handled? are the axis allowed to rail move anywere in Russia without penalty?

The allied player expects and needs these things to proberly defend Russia, so that 1942-43 can provide the truly pivitol battles that defined the war in the east.

I would appreciate any thoughts in this matter and/or if I'm just missing something.

Post #: 1

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 4:21:34 PM

alaric318

Posts: 366
Joined: 10/7/2003
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greetings, russian winter for 1941 is the most crude, is at random to happen between october trough february, for 1941 russian winter will be much dangerous for the german, axis troops in russia will drop in effectiveness for 35% meanwhile russians drop for 15%, each year on adverse effect decreased each year on 10% drop, better strategy for the russians is to not do battle before winter come, take some turns to recover from it, in adding of usual effectiveness drops, however germans will recover from winter on some turns, not much time, there are a few turns to make the counteroffensive, germany starts at tech "organisation" level 3, his troops recover much faster effectiveness what is historical and the better german advantage.

axis troops attacking the second capital, Perm, at far east from Moscow will have supply problems, supply level usually for axis near perm will be cut to a max of 3 supply, max railroad distance is 40 for everyone faction and nation, you can rail-move from warsaw to moscu but usually to reach near Perm take two turns for the axis, units far away much from cities, (the rail network) may not be moved with rail, i personally think that russian winter is well stablished, a cautious russian player can wait and do much damage to axis troops, during russian winter turns troops move worse, at most generally, motor units 1 hex, armour 2 hex and infantry 2 hex so it takes more time to make planned attacks,

hope it helps,

with regards,

murat30.

_____________________________

There is no plan of battle that survives the contact with the enemy.

(in reply to Major Victory)

Post #: 2

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 4:23:00 PM

Dave Ferguson

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
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In the manual it says that a units supply status will drop to medium if more than 50 hexes from a capital city. Counting from Berlin means the germans will not drop to medium supply until beyond Stalingrad and way east of Moscow. So it appears there is no russian rail guage effect as such. If Moscow is captured I presume the germans will be able to count 50 hexes from there? Or does this only apply to cities that were friendly at the start of the game?

Maybe a number of games of the 1941 scenario are worth playing as the allies suffer a lot less from the 'Uber' German forces which seem to be the OOB of choice for the 1939 axis player.

In a week or so I might try some 1941 PBEM to see how it plays out.

Dave

(in reply to Major Victory)

Post #: 3

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 4:51:16 PM

IrishGuards

Posts: 542
Joined: 12/7/2006
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IDG says .. Well this is gonna be a blitzkreig like you have never seen ...

Lets see ..
Got my pointy units ..

Rommel and Manstein .. helps quite a bit ..
Labs and Tech .. coming along quite nicely .. Inf,Arm,Generals will all have advances ...
Italy has a huge manpower base to supply new corps ..
The PP is fine .. having conquered
Poles, Danes, Holland, Belguim, France, Spain,Yugo ... and having hurt the Allied fleet certainly helps.. !!

I have been to this Russia .. One thing I don't think is done very well is the terrain in Russia ..
In WiE .. had rough and broken I think .. and some small fortified lines .. this should help with movement .. and I also think that maybe they are lacking in Tech and such ..
Should be the biggest challenge the German's face by far ...
Nay seem that way to I ..
IDG

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 4

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 4:59:28 PM

firepowerjohan

Posts: 378
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The thing is, in CEAW we cannot model economy totally realistic because then Allies would have a 2:1 or 3:1 advantage and simply be very biased towards Allies winning.

If USSR can halt Germany+Italy+Minors on their own, then there is no way for Axis to win. Simply, Axis sending everything into the east front should mean they are winning unless... Western Allies do their job and cause Axis some casualties and wars in the west. Bombing campaigns, air duels (cost alot to reinforce).

We want a game where both sides have roughly equal chances in the 1939 Grand Campaign scenario

_____________________________

Johan Persson - Firepower Entertainment
Lead developer of:
World Empires Live http://www.worldempireslive.com/
CEAW http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=18
CNAW http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=52

(in reply to IrishGuards)

Post #: 5

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 5:41:38 PM

Dave Ferguson

Posts: 302
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From: Kent, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

.........We want a game where both sides have roughly equal chances in the 1939 Grand Campaign scenario

What about the other scenarios, how are they balanced?

Here was me wondering why the game did not feel like WW2. It isnt WW2, its WW2 changed so that germany has a roughly equal chance of winning. Doh!

Problem is, how do you defend mother russia with less resources than you would have had historically? we already have some good advice, avoid fighting the axis at all until winter. Of course you have to fight because those Uber panzers will be at the gates of Moscow in 4 turns otherwise.

For a better WW2 experience we should play the later scenarios?

Dave

(in reply to firepowerjohan)

Post #: 6

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 6:00:33 PM

Major Victory

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I think the economics are fine, play balance issue and I understand completly. I just feel that the Soviets are missing the following from their command structure.

General Mud (limited campaign season in most of Russia should be noted)
Colonel Rail Gauge (huge impact first year of war)
Major Siberians (quantiity can be debated, but not their impact)

I love the game system and just hope some modifications can be added to give a better feel for the campaign in the east which is usually the most enjoyable see saw action of any European theatre of war game.

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 7

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 6:38:09 PM

Dave Ferguson

Posts: 302
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From: Kent, United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

.......Here was me wondering why the game did not feel like WW2. It isnt WW2, its WW2 changed so that germany has a roughly equal chance of winning. Doh!

I thought I had better make it clear here that I am not criticising the developers for this balancing, just me for misunderstanding the situation. So I can now go off to Normandy for a few days, relax, drink a few beers and try some of the later scenarios when I get back. Or maybe wait for the patch.

Dave

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 8

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 7:12:07 PM

firepowerjohan

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Joined: 4/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

.........We want a game where both sides have roughly equal chances in the 1939 Grand Campaign scenario

What about the other scenarios, how are they balanced?

Here was me wondering why the game did not feel like WW2. It isnt WW2, its WW2 changed so that germany has a roughly equal chance of winning. Doh!

Problem is, how do you defend mother russia with less resources than you would have had historically? we already have some good advice, avoid fighting the axis at all until winter. Of course you have to fight because those Uber panzers will be at the gates of Moscow in 4 turns otherwise.

For a better WW2 experience we should play the later scenarios?

Dave

If you play 1939 scenario at small advantage for Allies then I think you get quite a historical bias with Allies having the clearly larger chance to win the game. I do not think we are aiming towards making allies much stronger than axis in a patch, but instead we have difficulty levels for that :)

As with most other wargames, evening out the odds abit is common and might be better for a competetive 2 player computer game. Think of all the Civil War games where CSA actually have a decent chance of winning the war which in reality was very slim.

In real WW2 actually Axis did the Battle of Britain, Atlantic sub wars and war in Egypt. If Axis just neglect all that and instead spend every penny towards Barbarossa while UK+USA just sit and wait until 1944, then yes I think it is quite reasonable that the whole Axis should be able to have a edge on USSR.

Allies have plenty of opportunity to drain Axis economy, especially after USA join. Every single air duel or bombing of Axis cities will indirectly weaken the Barbarossa and if Axis leave the whole map wide open then you can perhaps also make a very early D-Day

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 7/2/2007 8:08:26 PM >

_____________________________

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 9

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 8:07:23 PM

MengCiao

Posts: 180
Joined: 7/7/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

quote:

ORIGINAL: firepowerjohan

.........We want a game where both sides have roughly equal chances in the 1939 Grand Campaign scenario

What about the other scenarios, how are they balanced?

Here was me wondering why the game did not feel like WW2. It isnt WW2, its WW2 changed so that germany has a roughly equal chance of winning. Doh!

Problem is, how do you defend mother russia with less resources than you would have had historically? we already have some good advice, avoid fighting the axis at all until winter. Of course you have to fight because those Uber panzers will be at the gates of Moscow in 4 turns otherwise.

For a better WW2 experience we should play the later scenarios?

Dave

If you play 1939 scenario at small advantage for Allies then I think you get quite a historical bias with Allies having the clearly larger chance to win the game. I do not think we are aiming towards making allies much stronger than axis in a patch, but instead we have difficulty levels for that :)

As with most other wargames, evening out the odds abit is common and might be better for a competetive 2 player computer game. Think of all the Civil War games where CSA actually have a decent chance of winning the war which in reality was very slim.

In real WW2 actually Axis did the Battle of Britain, Atlantic sub wars and war in egypt. If Axis just neglect all that and instead spend every penny towards Barbarossa while UK+USA just sit and wait until 1944, then yes I think it is quite reasonable that the whole Axis shoudl be able to have a slight edge on USSR?

Allies have plenty of opportunity to drain Axis economy, especially after USA join. Every single air duel or bombing of Axis cities will indirectly weaken the Barbarossa and if Axis leave the whole map wide open then you can perhaps also make a very early D-Day

Well...it is pretty clear in the game that on the "normal" setting, you get a more normal and less bizare regime in Germany. For example, in reality, Germany did not go to full war mobilization until 1942 and never fully mobilized women to work in factories and both of those odd decisions (and the decision to rely on forced labor and captured equipment) were apparently taken for reasons that made sense only in terms of the peculair politics and ideology of the NAZI regime. Some setting favoring the Allies apparently gives you a more NAZI-style regime in Germany.

_____________________________

The corpus of a thousand battles rises from the flood.

(in reply to firepowerjohan)

Post #: 10

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/2/2007 11:44:52 PM

Ancient One

Posts: 178
Joined: 7/1/2000
From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson
Here was me wondering why the game did not feel like WW2. It isnt WW2, its WW2 changed so that germany has a roughly equal chance of winning. Doh!

They should have an equal chance at winning the game, but not the war. I think that the Axis ending the war with Paris, Rome and Berlin by the end of 1945 is an acceptable baseline for winning the game.

quote:

Problem is, how do you defend mother russia with less resources than you would have had historically?

I'm not sure they really have less than historically. The Axis was significantly more powerful than the USSR alone.

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 11

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/3/2007 12:08:32 AM

Warfare1

Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
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Changing Russian Winter conditions should be easy (the following is from Slitherine's Site):

Alaric wrote:

greetings, i want to ask if it is possible to modify the coming of the efficiency reduction in winter or it is hard coded, in the main game it is working very well but for my mod maybe i want it coming at november 41, later years are less important, but first year maybe will determine if russian army survives or not, anyway i think is not a good decision to delay operation barbarossa later than june 22 if you want to finish war as axis in 41 or early 42, time and weather are the worst enemies of germany, any and all advice will be appreciated, thanks in advance,

MODDING RUSSIAN WINTER WEATHER:

There are 2 paramters in general script

AXIS_WINTER_SUFFER 55
ALLIES_WINTER_SUFFER 35

1) counting from 1939, each winter has 10 less effect simulating better equipment and preparedness in later years.

2) So in 1941 Axis units will suffer 55-10-10=35 effectiveness drop and Allies or USSR will suffer 35-10-10=15

3) Movement penalties are same each winter with +1 MP per hex and +1 Vehicle MP per hex.

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 7/3/2007 12:09:46 AM >

(in reply to Ancient One)

Post #: 12

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 7/3/2007 2:31:54 AM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
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I see 2 main problems with Russia as things stand now. Firstly they are barely able to build enough inf to create a solid defense line by the second or third turn after the attack. After that they simply cannot build another unit again as they need all of their production to replace losses.

So eventually their line thins out as the axis begin to kill units and the axis can then simply bypass their units through the gaps and easily roll up the entire country in about 1-2 years. Russia needs more income if they ever hope to survive.

Second there is no way to build the fortified lines in front of Moscow that the citizens built, so the best your units can do (assuming the axis even gives you enough time to dig in) is entrench themselves to level 2.

The Russians need some pre-existing fort lines on map in front of Moscow, if memory serves there should be three separate solid lines of forts west of the city between Moscow and Smolensk and some scattered forts north and south.

One other nit I�d like to pick is the ability of air power to destroy entire Corps of troops. I think air power should reduce effectiveness, but no way should troops be getting wiped out by air power alone at this scale.

In my current game the axis kill 1 to 2 units a turn with just air bombardments by mid 1942. And of course Russia hasn�t been able to afford to buy ANYTHING but replacements and the odd infantry unit now and again, so there are no defending fighters nor will there ever be given the nerfed Russian economy.

By winter of 1941, Russia actually had a LARGER army than they had when the war had started, and that was after they had lost 6 million men in the opening campaigns. It wasn�t until late 1943 when manpower started to thin a bit that Russia ever had trouble building new armies.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 7/3/2007 2:32:34 AM >

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Post #: 13

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/17/2007 6:11:57 AM

IrishGuards

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Ire was here ..

IDG

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 14

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/17/2007 8:35:36 PM

targul

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Yes Jim I agree the Russian economy sucks. They cannot build new units and only rebuild until they eventually disappear. Most games verses Human players I see Russian lose. Does seem to matter who is playing. I play the Axis Russia dies. I play the Allies Russia dies.

It is always close but in 42 the Axis just walks over the Russians who seem tired and disheartened.

I think this maybe a two fold problem. Knowing you only have to take take Berlin and Perm makes objectives easy to choose. I know I ignore everything to the south and north draw a straight line and head to Berlin then I do the same to Perm. I put blocking forces on my flanks and try to intimidate the Russian cities North and South but they are not my goal so I spend little attention on them. About the time I reach Berlin the Allies inevitably land in France. I send a small blocking force and continue on to Perm. I need to reach Perm before the Allies can reach Berlin. It is simply a race. If I make it I can turn the Axis army loose on the Allies if not the Allies get a win.

Suggest they make the objective cities more varied and not simply Moscow then Perm. Once you figure that out it is just too easy.

Problem two is the lack of funds. The war effort should probably take a big jump about September 41 to give them adequate funds to build at least one unit a turn as well as maintain the force so they need about 50 points more a turn. They may even need to crank that up above that but that is where I would start.

Last patch made it much better but still need more to make the Russian the formidable force they were.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to IrishGuards)

Post #: 15

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/17/2007 9:59:42 PM

Dave Ferguson

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From: Kent, United Kingdom
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I must be doing something wrong playing PBEM as allies. Last game the russians had finished the germans by 1943 and this game are giving them a hard time in winter 41. Numbers do have their own value though as i have close to 60 corps deployed.

(in reply to targul)

Post #: 16

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/17/2007 11:05:03 PM

targul

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Since I build mostly infantry in Russia I also have large armies as Russia to start but about 1942 they get tired. Moscow is typically surrounded with an corp in each hex and a corp in the center these entrench. But when the Axis arrives those units all are gone after one round of attacks. No remenents just gone. Since we dont get to see how I dont know but it only happens every game.

When I run the Axis I bomb them, strave them and then attack. Say good bye to those units. Assume that is what the opponent Axis does also dont know since we only see results but must be.

If the Russians develop a line it is so easy to break it they quickly get stomped for doing that.

I assume most of the problem is tech but you cant give that before at least winter 41 or the Russians would stand to well.

Balance here is very close but just not there.

You seem to be doing fine Dave but those you are playing are certainly having trouble.

I have 4 different PBEM opponents at this time and those are the results from our last games. We then change sides to see if they do better or worse.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 17

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/18/2007 11:02:34 AM

Dave Ferguson

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It seems tac air is the unstoppable weapon in this game, I recently lost Egypt because the axis had 3 tac air plus 1 fighter, he just wiped ou 1 corps per turn.
The russians can do nothing against this tactic because they cannot build fighters as they need infantry.

One of the key problems is all the early war invasions come early to give germany more time to conquor and also deprive the opponent of the production they would have got. for russia the October increase in production is fine but why do you have to wait until October if invaded early. Perhaps russia should have a couple of commanders from the start

Take France for instance, weak at the start and not enough time to build a decent army. the French army should be substantially there from the start.

(in reply to targul)

Post #: 18

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/18/2007 5:53:13 PM

targul

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Dave you maybe correct give them 2 or 3 commanders to start might make the difference as I said I think it is close but just not there yet.

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 19

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/19/2007 12:02:58 PM

heroes99

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I could not agree more that Russia will only have chance if their have another 1-2 city ( spread them up ) as capital and this will definitely make it much harder for the Axis

(in reply to targul)

Post #: 20

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/19/2007 1:48:53 PM

YohanTM2

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Tell you what Dave. I'll take the Allies in a game and show you what the French army can do to the Germans. Properly played they can really hurt the German war machine.

I'm not sure if you are speaking of vs. the AI. If so, I can't comment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Ferguson

It seems tac air is the unstoppable weapon in this game,�I recently lost Egypt because the axis had 3 tac air plus 1 fighter, he just wiped ou 1 corps per turn.
The russians can do nothing against this tactic because they cannot build fighters�as they need infantry.

One of the key problems is all the early war invasions come early to give germany more time to conquor and also deprive the opponent of the production they would have got. for russia the October increase in production is fine but why do you have to wait until October if invaded early. Perhaps russia should have a couple of commanders from the start

Take France for instance, weak at the start and not enough time to build a decent army. the French army should be substantially there from the start.

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)

Post #: 21

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/19/2007 2:11:56 PM

SMK-at-work

Posts: 3396
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From: New Zealand
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Yeah it's pretty simple for France to invade Germany on T1....utter rubbish historically of course, but easy to do here :)

However there are other things that can be done with teh French & English - I got pushed OUT of Belgium as the Axis vs IDG's allies in one game......the blitzkrieg got stomped on!!

If you want a game Yohan I'm almost recovered from that rauma so would be happy to have another go as the Axis...

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 22

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/19/2007 6:40:49 PM

IrishGuards

Posts: 542
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You want to play my brethren .. Oh Dear ..

Get ready ... lol
IDG

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Post #: 23

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/19/2007 7:16:48 PM

IrishGuards

Posts: 542
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Invading Germany is nay what Y means ..

IDG

(in reply to IrishGuards)

Post #: 24

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/20/2007 1:54:09 AM

SMK-at-work

Posts: 3396
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From: New Zealand
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Oh - so you've schooled him in the "garrison rush" have you?!

(in reply to IrishGuards)

Post #: 25

RE: Defending Mother Russia - 8/20/2007 4:45:29 AM

IrishGuards

Posts: 542
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LMAO ... He has 35 yrs of same ****e ...
The brethren ..

IDG

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Post #: 26

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