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RE: First Reported Allied Victoy

 
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RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/12/2007 10:28:48 PM   
Warfare1


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline 		I think as long as we are given the proper tools (editors), units, events, etc, and as long as enough things can be tweaked and edited, then there should be plenty of room for "fantasy" WWII scenarios as well as more "historical" scenarios.

But the tools need to be there so that players can alter what they wish.


(in reply to targul)
Post #: 61
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/12/2007 11:40:55 PM   
Vypuero


Posts: 232
Joined: 4/7/2007
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Status: offline 		Targul I just think you are wrong in the assessment that it is fantasy ww II.  I dont think that whether or not 4 units appear as "siberians" or you get the points to buy them makes one better than the other.  Also the changes proposed - while they may seem small - can make a big difference.  For instance:

USSR mobilization now increases from 10% to 25% - that is a 15% difference in income per turn for over a year (until max is reached, sooner)

USSR gets 4 extra garrisons and 1 extra tank

USSR gets 1 level of tech in fixed defenses = +1 quality on all infantry units.

Italy starts weaker at only 10% instead of 30% war effort (they get 15% back when they join the war)

USA/UK will have lower manpower

USA starts with tech 1 in naval and air technology, plus radar

Tech research lower, including a big drop for Org tech.  That hurts Axis because it allows the allies to catch up faster.

at least those are on the table for now.

(in reply to Warfare1)
Post #: 62
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/12/2007 11:43:12 PM   
Vypuero


Posts: 232
Joined: 4/7/2007
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Status: offline 		USA manpower was mostly Ok, but decided they are building too many corps - I may suggest a bump in transport costs.  UK was off because I gave too much credit to Indian manpower - possible was huge! but reality was much smaller.  Now I think we have a much more realistic UK manpower.  Will see if it matters, if you dont build a lot of infantry it probably wont anyway but thats Ok.

(in reply to Vypuero)
Post #: 63
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/14/2007 4:17:41 PM   
Texican

 

Posts: 248
Joined: 10/30/2006
Status: offline 		Frankly, I've never seen this game have the Germans put units into Africa, or even Italy. And I mean playing the 1939 campaign.

At normal settings, the Germans are a breeze to beat. At higher settings, the Germans just get more production; AI isn't cranked up or anything, and the Germans are still pretty easy to beat.

I find this game unchallenging, as I have any WW2 game of this strategic scope.

If only the AI were a little more aggressive.

(in reply to targul)
Post #: 64
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/14/2007 6:17:20 PM   
targul


Posts: 449
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Targul I just think you are wrong in the assessment that it is fantasy ww II.  I dont think that whether or not 4 units appear as "siberians" or you get the points to buy them makes one better than the other.  Also the changes proposed - while they may seem small - can make a big difference.  For instance:

USSR mobilization now increases from 10% to 25% - that is a 15% difference in income per turn for over a year (until max is reached, sooner)

USSR gets 4 extra garrisons and 1 extra tank

USSR gets 1 level of tech in fixed defenses = +1 quality on all infantry units.

Italy starts weaker at only 10% instead of 30% war effort (they get 15% back when they join the war)

USA/UK will have lower manpower

USA starts with tech 1 in naval and air technology, plus radar

Tech research lower, including a big drop for Org tech.  That hurts Axis because it allows the allies to catch up faster.

at least those are on the table for now.


Please do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that not placing Siberians in the game make it Fantasy. I said if you fail to place the correct forces and do not follow the economic and political events of WWII that it is fantasy.

How they handle Siberia as I have said is okay as long as they do something to account for those troops. I do think it would be better to directly account for them but I am not saying that is the only possibility.

To me it appears they maybe doing fine with this patch. I will not make a final decision until I have played a dozen or so games with it.

I also still remain unconvienced that by not following the OOB that was in the war you can make a WWII game. The changes to all the other factors you mention here is how I believe you make the game fun and balanced not by changing the only thing that you know whick is number of units and there placements. After initial OOB I can go along with production in lieu of units since changes in that area are within the realm of players after turn one.


_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to Vypuero)
Post #: 65
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/14/2007 7:11:03 PM   
Warfare1


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline 		Once we have a patch or two, along with the editors, then I think we will see a wide variety of scenarios and campaigns.

SC now has 100 user made campaigns. SC2 is approaching that number.

I can readily see a campaign being made for Commander that will start on June 22, 1941 - basically a German-Soviet campaign that spans the entire war. A real slugfest with correct OoBs, unit placement, winter weather, reinforcements, etc....

The German player must defeat the Soviets before the USA/Commonwealth can make its presence felt. The Soviet player must hold out until help can arrive...


(in reply to targul)
Post #: 66
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/14/2007 8:42:57 PM   
Vypuero


Posts: 232
Joined: 4/7/2007
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Status: offline 		I did follow the OOBs fairly closed, and then made compromises as requested by the game builders.  It is just a lower scale because they wanted to not have too many units in the game (or a higher scale, really).  I will, at some point, show how I arrive at all of this:
1)  Using Oil production stats and reserves for Oil
2)  Using manpower based on population
3)  Using GDP figures for value, with some adjustments based on resources and in Russia's case to account for their larger effort vs their size.
4)  Using OOBs and ratios of divisions to units

Then I will probably make my own more historic version we can try out and see how it plays.

(in reply to Warfare1)
Post #: 67
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/15/2007 12:21:31 AM   
Warfare1


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

I did follow the OOBs fairly closed, and then made compromises as requested by the game builders. It is just a lower scale because they wanted to not have too many units in the game (or a higher scale, really). I will, at some point, show how I arrive at all of this:
1) Using Oil production stats and reserves for Oil
2) Using manpower based on population
3) Using GDP figures for value, with some adjustments based on resources and in Russia's case to account for their larger effort vs their size.
4) Using OOBs and ratios of divisions to units

Then I will probably make my own more historic version we can try out and see how it plays.


Excellent idea.

It must be no easy task being the sole scenario creator.

Your valuable insights into scenario design as well as your new creations will be very welcome

(in reply to Vypuero)
Post #: 68
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/15/2007 9:53:54 PM   
Vypuero


Posts: 232
Joined: 4/7/2007
From: Philadelphia, PA USA
Status: offline 		For now I am playing too many games to work on it :)

While I have games to play, the other stuff is on hold.  Plus, as I said in another thread, I am finding strategies I never thought of (both for and against me) and that is what I think few here realize.  The reason is of course the length of the game!  It is too easy to make judgements when you may have just had a bad strategy that hurts you later in the game long after and you wonder why it is going against you.

(in reply to Warfare1)
Post #: 69
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 2:20:03 AM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
I can readily see a campaign being made for Commander that will start on June 22, 1941 - basically a German-Soviet campaign that spans the entire war.



Why? One came with the game!


_____________________________


(in reply to Warfare1)
Post #: 70
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 3:06:33 AM   
Warfare1


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98

quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
I can readily see a campaign being made for Commander that will start on June 22, 1941 - basically a German-Soviet campaign that spans the entire war.



Why? One came with the game!




Hi :)

Unfortunately, you only provided a portion of my quote.

Here's why:


I can readily see a campaign being made for Commander that will start on June 22, 1941 - basically a German-Soviet campaign that spans the entire war. A real slugfest with correct OoBs, unit placement, winter weather, reinforcements, etc....

The German player must defeat the Soviets before the USA/Commonwealth can make its presence felt. The Soviet player must hold out until help can arrive...


Basically, an historical setup for German, Soviet and other Allied forces....

< Message edited by Warfare1 -- 7/17/2007 3:09:56 AM >

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 71
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 4:26:51 AM   
rastak

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 3/31/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: targul


quote:

ORIGINAL: Vypuero

Targul I just think you are wrong in the assessment that it is fantasy ww II.  I dont think that whether or not 4 units appear as "siberians" or you get the points to buy them makes one better than the other.  Also the changes proposed - while they may seem small - can make a big difference.  For instance:

USSR mobilization now increases from 10% to 25% - that is a 15% difference in income per turn for over a year (until max is reached, sooner)

USSR gets 4 extra garrisons and 1 extra tank

USSR gets 1 level of tech in fixed defenses = +1 quality on all infantry units.

Italy starts weaker at only 10% instead of 30% war effort (they get 15% back when they join the war)

USA/UK will have lower manpower

USA starts with tech 1 in naval and air technology, plus radar

Tech research lower, including a big drop for Org tech.  That hurts Axis because it allows the allies to catch up faster.

at least those are on the table for now.


Please do not put words in my mouth. I did not say that not placing Siberians in the game make it Fantasy. I said if you fail to place the correct forces and do not follow the economic and political events of WWII that it is fantasy.

How they handle Siberia as I have said is okay as long as they do something to account for those troops. I do think it would be better to directly account for them but I am not saying that is the only possibility.

To me it appears they maybe doing fine with this patch. I will not make a final decision until I have played a dozen or so games with it.

I also still remain unconvienced that by not following the OOB that was in the war you can make a WWII game. The changes to all the other factors you mention here is how I believe you make the game fun and balanced not by changing the only thing that you know whick is number of units and there placements. After initial OOB I can go along with production in lieu of units since changes in that area are within the realm of players after turn one.




Doesn't any deviation from history during the game immediately turn it into fantasy? It's just my opinion but those that want a 100% historical game should just watch a documentary. Not trying to attack anyone, it's just that a game is just a game. It's supposed to be fun to play or it's just work.

(in reply to targul)
Post #: 72
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 5:09:06 AM   
targul


Posts: 449
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline 		"Doesn't any deviation from history during the game immediately turn it into fantasy? It's just my opinion but those that want a 100% historical game should just watch a documentary. Not trying to attack anyone, it's just that a game is just a game. It's supposed to be fun to play or it's just work."



To me when you ignore WWII it is the same as playing Railroad Tycoon without the Trains.  So we are playing WWII game without the economics, military or politics of the period its the same to me as playing Civ but just not as much fun.





_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to rastak)
Post #: 73
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 5:45:49 AM   
Forwarn45

 

Posts: 718
Joined: 4/26/2005
Status: offline 		Personally, I prefer a historical approach. To make a game fair, I'd rather just adjust victory conditions or allow players the option to give one side a little help. But I understand the other approach and sometimes enjoy blatantly unhistorical games that are meant to be balanced. The current version of Axis and Allies is such a game - just a lot of fun although it is laughable that Japan can easily get an economy approaching that of the USA!

(in reply to targul)
Post #: 74
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 12:08:27 PM   
Dave Ferguson

 

Posts: 302
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: Kent, United Kingdom
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Warfare1
I can readily see a campaign being made for Commander that will start on June 22, 1941 - basically a German-Soviet campaign that spans the entire war. A real slugfest with correct OoBs, unit placement, winter weather, reinforcements, etc....

The German player must defeat the Soviets before the USA/Commonwealth can make its presence felt. The Soviet player must hold out until help can arrive...


Basically, an historical setup for German, Soviet and other Allied forces....


This would be a interesting mod, especially if there was a new map to allow more room on the eastern front.

Thinks - a 22mile hex map should be possible giving 50% more hexes!

Dave

(in reply to Warfare1)
Post #: 75
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 4:54:12 PM   
targul


Posts: 449
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline 		If we doing wishes I would prefer both the hexes size mentioned more hexes always good. More importantly the game time turn.  Twenty days is just strange.  Not sure how they came up with that number but it seems weird.  I would like to see it use varying time like SC2.  Summer one a week, Spring & Fall 2 week and monthly winter turns. 

_____________________________

Jim

Cant we just get along.
Hell no I want to kill something!

1st Cav Div 66-69 5th Special Forces 70-73

(in reply to Dave Ferguson)
Post #: 76
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 5:29:38 PM   
Warfare1


Posts: 658
Joined: 10/20/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: targul

If we doing wishes I would prefer both the hexes size mentioned more hexes always good. More importantly the game time turn. Twenty days is just strange. Not sure how they came up with that number but it seems weird. I would like to see it use varying time like SC2. Summer one a week, Spring & Fall 2 week and monthly winter turns.


Game turns can now be modded - a guy has already done it. I think it is one week turns. So, this is good news.

(in reply to targul)
Post #: 77
RE: First Reported Allied Victoy - 7/17/2007 5:34:17 PM   
firepowerjohan


Posts: 378
Joined: 4/7/2007
Status: offline 		Game turns have already from release day been in the general.txt script in data folder of CEaW. A powerful script that contain general parameters for AI, leadership, morale, economy, research, commanders, retreat rules and alot more

< Message edited by firepowerjohan -- 7/17/2007 5:35:24 PM >

_____________________________

Johan Persson - Firepower Entertainment
Lead developer of:
World Empires Live http://www.worldempireslive.com/
CEAW http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=18
CNAW http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=52



(in reply to Warfare1)
Post #: 78
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