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RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division

 
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RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/14/2007 2:29:37 PM   
highblooded

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 5/27/2004
Status: offline 		Hello,
I have been searching for the 10th Inf Div. Was it broken into smaller units(Brigades,Etc)?
It's slot is being used by 10th Mtn Gun Rgt.(#1295). This is specifically about RAO but I believe it is missing from EOS and the others as well.
My Research suggests it served in Manchuria at the beginning of the war. Scen. 15 has it at Port Arthur.
I am certain it would be massive but is there a list of all such changes and decisions made?
For Example I can't seem to find a square Inf Div- are they around? I like the ABC Div rating but some were square and some triangular.
Also a bit confused about the "division" brigade units(55 I.D. and 56 I.D.)

Thanks for any assistance.
Post #: 1
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 1:39:45 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		It is impossible to document all such decisions. Further - it is not possible to know - with this software that does not track - who did what? Most of RHS - massive as work on it has been - is inherited - from CHS and even more from stock.

The "division brigade" is an RHS term: it means a BINARY division with two regiments. It is put in the game as a brigade - because code permits a brigade to break into two parts - but called a division in honor of its name. Both these units had a brigade detached for independent operations at the start of the war. The term is meant to imply "small division" and it is meant also to imply "breaks into two major parts" instead of three. Oddly - one of the brigades broken off eventually contained 3 small regiments (of 2 battalions)!!! So this unit - 65th I think - should be represented as a "brigade division" - but I don't think I thought of that.

If 10th Division is missing - it was missing in CHS - probably. I certainly didn't remove it. Perhaps Joe can shed some light? It might be present as components.

EDIT: 10th Division is missing in RHS - but not in stock or CHS - where it occupies slot 1295. A 10th Mountain Gun Regiment was in that slot in RHS - and it now has been moved so we can use the stock location. An advisory to Andrew and I from Matrix (arriving a few days after each of us independently came to the same conclusion) was to use stock slots for safety - due to the presence of hard code associated with a particular unit - undocumented hard code making it impossible to know when we can change slots.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 7/16/2007 5:25:18 PM >

(in reply to highblooded)
Post #: 2
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 11:18:17 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		This is an important IJA unit - nearly wiped out in combat with the US Army in 1944 - and there is no excuse for its omission. I wonder - however - what else might be missing? Since the IJA was reviewed twice for CHS before we branched - it never occurred to me to check. Now I will.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 3
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 12:07:49 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I cannot find an IJA 2nd Division!

But there is one (slot 1433) - so either I cannot read or for some reason it isn't always visible.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 7/15/2007 12:12:11 PM >

(in reply to highblooded)
Post #: 4
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 3:02:01 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Japanese OOB's on 7Dec41 (Army)

http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/_41_ija.htm


Please note this source also tells if the division was triangular or square!

My eyes may be bad, but I did not find a 10th I.D. I did find a 10th Inf Brigade..

BTW, the 2nd I.D. is showing in Honsho Japan on this date.(in these OOB's).

< Message edited by m10bob -- 7/15/2007 3:10:15 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 3:45:51 PM   
Fletcher


Posts: 3386
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Jerez, Spain, EU
Status: offline 		10th IJA Infantry Division: (Type A Division) raised from Himeji District (Central). The regimental district for this division were Kobe, Tottori, and Okayama.Its call sign was the Iron Division (鉄兵団, Tetsu-heidan)
The 10th Infantry Division was formed on 1 October 1898, as one of the six new reserve divisions created after the First Sino-Japanese War. It consisted of troops from the Himeiji region, namely the three prefectures of Hyogo, Okayama and Tottori, plus a portion of Shimane prefecture.It was a square division.
In 1940 was placed under the control of the Kwangtung Army after the japanese offensive at Wuhan (1940).
Dec 7th 1941, it is a part of Reserve Kwangtung Area Army (like direct reporting unit to Kwnagtun Area Army HQ9 with the following units: 10th, 39th and 63rd Infantry Regiments, 10th Reconoissance regiment, 10th Field Artillery regiment, and 10th Artillery Group.
i can not get any record at Dec 7th 1941 for this unit.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 6
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 3:53:06 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

10th IJA Infantry Division: (Type A Division) raised from Himeji District (Central). The regimental district for this division were Kobe, Tottori, and Okayama.Its call sign was the Iron Division (鉄兵団, Tetsu-heidan)
The 10th Infantry Division was formed on 1 October 1898, as one of the six new reserve divisions created after the First Sino-Japanese War. It consisted of troops from the Himeiji region, namely the three prefectures of Hyogo, Okayama and Tottori, plus a portion of Shimane prefecture.It was a square division.
In 1940 was placed under the control of the Kwangtung Army after the japanese offensive at Wuhan (1940).
Dec 7th 1941, it is a part of Reserve Kwangtung Area Army (like direct reporting unit to Kwnagtun Area Army HQ9 with the following units: 10th, 39th and 63rd Infantry Regiments, 10th Reconoissance regiment, 10th Field Artillery regiment, and 10th Artillery Group.
i can not get any record at Dec 7th 1941 for this unit.


Excellent Fletch..I wonder if serving in reserve status meant it was only carrying a cadre on 7 Dec, (which might be why Niehorster listed 10th "brigade" instead of division in the Kwangtung area??)

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RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 9:17:33 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

I cannot find an IJA 2nd Division!

But there is one (slot 1433) - so either I cannot read or for some reason it isn't always visible.


He asked about the 10th division (not 2nd). Are you saying there is a different division missing, or was that a typo? If there's one missing, I might wait before I fire up a game with 7.754.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 8
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 9:28:46 PM   
Fletcher


Posts: 3386
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Jerez, Spain, EU
Status: offline 		At Dec 7th 1941, 10th Infantry Division was triangular (it was a Type A before 1941), and was commanded by Jiro Sogawa.

About all elements under direct command of Kwangtung Area Army HQ:

* Kwangtung Area Army Head Quarters at Changchung
* 10th Division (Sogawa) at Changchng, appears in the OOB like this division got clobbered at Taierchuang in 1938 (too much time ago, but it is a note).
* 28th Division (Ishiguro), at Chanchung.
* 29th Division (Uemura), at Anshan
* Kwangtung Defense Brigade at Chanchung.

I hope this help !
Cheers

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 9
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 10:35:21 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Japanese OOB's on 7Dec41 (Army)

http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/_41_ija.htm


Please note this source also tells if the division was triangular or square!

My eyes may be bad, but I did not find a 10th I.D. I did find a 10th Inf Brigade..

BTW, the 2nd I.D. is showing in Honsho Japan on this date.(in these OOB's).


Since Niehorster was used as the "bible" for IJA, this explains the omission of the 10th Division.
This is an opportunity to point out that Neihorster is notoriously incomplete. It is a generic problem
with all scholarly materials: even if they know something they often don't put it in because the
source material does not meet this or that scholarly test, and if they don't know it at all - it is naturally
omitted. We act as if such a source is complete when in fact it is not. There is ample material on 10th
Division to say it dates from the 19th century, it was important in earlier wars, and it was encountered
and destroyed as a functional unit by the US Army in the Philippines. How it can be missing from a
very good listing like this one is impossible for us to know - but the lesson should be learned that no single
source is complete or to be wholly trusted - in particular one not in the native language or officially issued
by the service in question. If Niehorster lists it, it probably was there (although not always where he lists it
at). If not - it only means he didn't know about it - or sometimes knew but for whatever technical reason still
didn't list it.

EDIT: Please do not read the above to mean I do not regard N highly. He used materials from a Japanese scholar and he revised material over time - as good scholars do. I meant only to say that no single source should be treated as holy writ - perfect - complete - and in particular that the absence of something is a sign it did not exist. Here we have been misreading N: the 10th IS listed - but not as a part of any corps (army) - rather as an independent unit directly under the Kwangtung Army. Since you cannot see the software listing all at once - this is easy to miss - you must look at many places to be sure something is absent. In this case the allegation - which I wrongly confirmed - that 10th was not listed - was a bum rap for N. Not that there are not missing units - but this isn't one of them.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 7/16/2007 4:56:42 PM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 10
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 10:39:40 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

10th IJA Infantry Division: (Type A Division) raised from Himeji District (Central). The regimental district for this division were Kobe, Tottori, and Okayama.Its call sign was the Iron Division (“S•º’c, Tetsu-heidan)
The 10th Infantry Division was formed on 1 October 1898, as one of the six new reserve divisions created after the First Sino-Japanese War. It consisted of troops from the Himeiji region, namely the three prefectures of Hyogo, Okayama and Tottori, plus a portion of Shimane prefecture.It was a square division.
In 1940 was placed under the control of the Kwangtung Army after the japanese offensive at Wuhan (1940).
Dec 7th 1941, it is a part of Reserve Kwangtung Area Army (like direct reporting unit to Kwnagtun Area Army HQ9 with the following units: 10th, 39th and 63rd Infantry Regiments, 10th Reconoissance regiment, 10th Field Artillery regiment, and 10th Artillery Group.
i can not get any record at Dec 7th 1941 for this unit.


Excellent Fletch..I wonder if serving in reserve status meant it was only carrying a cadre on 7 Dec, (which might be why Niehorster listed 10th "brigade" instead of division in the Kwangtung area??)


Between July 1941 and December 1941, the entire Kwangtung Army was brought up to full wartime strength. This required several hundred thousand men in addition to a few whole units moved to Manchukuo. [See Nomanhan]
Being in "reserve" meant these formations were not on the front line. They were both an offensive and defensive reserve. The IJA long had planned to invade the USSR, and this reserve force was probably tasked with planning for the offensive to Chita. After the front line units breached the line - and presumably were not in good shape - the reserve units would then take over the offensive for the next phase. [Again, see Nomanhan]

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 11
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/15/2007 11:25:41 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Japanese OOB's on 7Dec41 (Army)

http://www.niehorster.orbat.com/014_japan/41-12-08_army/_41_ija.htm


Please note this source also tells if the division was triangular or square!

My eyes may be bad, but I did not find a 10th I.D. I did find a 10th Inf Brigade..

BTW, the 2nd I.D. is showing in Honsho Japan on this date.(in these OOB's).


Since Niehorster was used as the "bible" for IJA, this explains the omission of the 10th Division.
This is an opportunity to point out that Neihorster is notoriously incomplete. It is a generic problem
with all scholarly materials: even if they know something they often don't put it in because the
source material does not meet this or that scholarly test, and if they don't know it at all - it is naturally
omitted. We act as if such a source is complete when in fact it is not. There is ample material on 10th
Division to say it dates from the 19th century, it was important in earlier wars, and it was encountered
and destroyed as a functional unit by the US Army in the Philippines. How it can be missing from a
very good listing like this one is impossible for us to know - but the lesson should be learned that no single
source is complete or to be wholly trusted - in particular one not in the native language or officially issued
by the service in question. If Niehorster lists it, it probably was there (although not always where he lists it
at). If not - it only means he didn't know about it - or sometimes knew but for whatever technical reason still
didn't list it.


You just dusted off some cobwebs.
Was the 10th not notorious while serving under Gen Homma???
BTW, I envy Fletchers' detailed sources...

_____________________________




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Post #: 12
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 6:46:03 AM   
highblooded

 

Posts: 67
Joined: 5/27/2004
Status: offline 		Hello,

Niehorster does list the 10th Div under The triangular Division section.

Another problem I found is the 31st Inf Div. This is in the game (slot 1430) but according to a few sources it was not created until March 22, 1943( in Bangkok).

Thanks for reviewing this divisions situation glad I brought it up, I was assuming the major units were all well documented and in place.

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 13
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 9:45:33 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		If N lists 10th as triangular, why is it not in his Dec 7, 1941 OB? Since the division dates to the 19th century, this seems quite odd. But note that ALL data bases contain errors - and ours is no exception.

31st I will look up.

(in reply to highblooded)
Post #: 14
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 10:26:57 AM   
Fletcher


Posts: 3386
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Jerez, Spain, EU
Status: offline 		IJA Thirty First Division (第31師団, Hohei Sanju-ichi Shidan?) was an infantry division in the Imperial Japanese Army. Its call sign was the Furious Division (烈兵団, Retsu Heidan)
The 31st Division was raised in Bangkok, Thailand, on 22 March 1943 out of reservists from Fukuoka prefecture. It was assigned to the Japanese 15th Army.
The order of battle for the 31st Division included:
*58th Infantry Regiment (Takada)
*124th Infantry Regiment (Fukuoka)
*138th Infantry Regiment (Nara)
*31st Mountain Art Regiment
*31st Engineering Regiment
*31st Transportation Regiment

Reference: Madej, W. Victor. Japanese Armed Forces, OOB 1939-1945.
(2 volumens) Allentown, PA: 1981.

For other hand, I can not find 31st Division at Neihorster list.

< Message edited by Fletcher -- 7/16/2007 1:08:23 PM >

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 15
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 1:53:38 PM   
hueglin


Posts: 297
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Kingston, ON, Canada
Status: offline 		I don't know if this will help, or make things more confusing, but in "Demobilizing the Japanese Army - Part 3" there is listed a 10th Independent Infantry Brigade as being demobilized at Taiyuan in Shansi Province, China, on Sept 17, 1945. Oh the accompanying map it appears to be part of the I Corps.

From what I have read on this post, this is probably not the same formation as the 10th Infantry Division, but I thought the info may clarify some of the references.

P.S. The same source places the 10th Infantry Division in Luzon Philippines in 1945 as part of 14th Army.

< Message edited by hueglin -- 7/16/2007 1:59:39 PM >

(in reply to Fletcher)
Post #: 16
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 3:28:40 PM   
Fletcher


Posts: 3386
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Jerez, Spain, EU
Status: offline 		May be IJA 10th Infantry MIXED Brigade belonged XII Army in the Sainan area.

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Post #: 17
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 4:20:21 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If N lists 10th as triangular, why is it not in his Dec 7, 1941 OB? Since the division dates to the 19th century, this seems quite odd. But note that ALL data bases contain errors - and ours is no exception.

31st I will look up.


10th Infantry Division is in Niehorsters' Dec 7, 1941 orbat (directly subordinate to Kwantung Theater Army). It is in stock and CHS as well (but wrongly placed at Port Arthur; actually it was at Chiamusssu/Kiamusze then), only missing in RHS.

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 18
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 4:25:21 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

IJA Thirty First Division (第31師団, Hohei Sanju-ichi Shidan?) was an infantry division in the Imperial Japanese Army. Its call sign was the Furious Division (烈兵団, Retsu Heidan)
The 31st Division was raised in Bangkok, Thailand, on 22 March 1943 out of reservists from Fukuoka prefecture. It was assigned to the Japanese 15th Army.
The order of battle for the 31st Division included:
*58th Infantry Regiment (Takada)
*124th Infantry Regiment (Fukuoka)
*138th Infantry Regiment (Nara)
*31st Mountain Art Regiment
*31st Engineering Regiment
*31st Transportation Regiment

Reference: Madej, W. Victor. Japanese Armed Forces, OOB 1939-1945.
(2 volumens) Allentown, PA: 1981.

For other hand, I can not find 31st Division at Neihorster list.


Madej is partly wrong here: The infantry regiments that formed 31st Division were not newly formed by reservist, they were regiments that had become independent when 13th, 18th, and 116th Divisions were triangularized.

(in reply to Fletcher)
Post #: 19
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 4:29:53 PM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

May be IJA 10th Infantry MIXED Brigade belonged XII Army in the Sainan area.


Never heard about a 10th Mixed Brigade, and 10th Independent Mixed Brigade had been used in the formation of 59th Division in 1942. Probably 10th Independent Infantry Brigade (this one had been formed in China in 1944)?

(in reply to Fletcher)
Post #: 20
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 4:46:37 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

If N lists 10th as triangular, why is it not in his Dec 7, 1941 OB? Since the division dates to the 19th century, this seems quite odd. But note that ALL data bases contain errors - and ours is no exception.

31st I will look up.


10th Infantry Division is in Niehorsters' Dec 7, 1941 orbat (directly subordinate to Kwantung Theater Army). It is in stock and CHS as well (but wrongly placed at Port Arthur; actually it was at Chiamusssu/Kiamusze then), only missing in RHS.


I looked before posting - seems unlikely it is missing only in my copies of both. Got a slot number? I have some questions about divisional structure - and if present they might be indicators of what someone else thought. Actually, I looked them up using software - sorting by name. IF present they should have sorted into number order.

EDIT: OK - I found it - slot 1295. This unit is thought by both stock and CHS to have field guns (vice mountain guns) - which was my first guess as well. For some reason stock has the unit about 1/3 overstrength - possibly they thought it was square? - while CHS has a similar line squad count - indicating someone probably thought it was triangular. I wonder why it didn't sort? Not to mention - why we lost it?

Note I also corrected a post above in which I "confirmed" incorrectly that the 10th was not listed - when in fact it is. If you don't click on every possible symbol, you can miss a unit - and there are huge numbers of sub symbols. In this case the unit was not part of one of the corps - in spite of text saying otherwise - misleading some of us anyway. It was directly under K Army in the N listing - which does sound like a strategic reserve unit to me.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 7/16/2007 4:59:34 PM >

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 21
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/16/2007 7:20:55 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		As many units are involved in the game AND in historical OOB's, and compound this by the several previous "builders" beginning this huge "house", I would be surprised if the "house"" did not have several loose "bricks" just lying around.....

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Post #: 22
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/17/2007 3:12:14 AM   
Fletcher


Posts: 3386
Joined: 10/26/2006
From: Jerez, Spain, EU
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fletcher

IJA Thirty First Division (第31師団, Hohei Sanju-ichi Shidan?) was an infantry division in the Imperial Japanese Army. Its call sign was the Furious Division (烈兵団, Retsu Heidan)
The 31st Division was raised in Bangkok, Thailand, on 22 March 1943 out of reservists from Fukuoka prefecture. It was assigned to the Japanese 15th Army.
The order of battle for the 31st Division included:
*58th Infantry Regiment (Takada)
*124th Infantry Regiment (Fukuoka)
*138th Infantry Regiment (Nara)
*31st Mountain Art Regiment
*31st Engineering Regiment
*31st Transportation Regiment

Reference: Madej, W. Victor. Japanese Armed Forces, OOB 1939-1945.
(2 volumens) Allentown, PA: 1981.

For other hand, I can not find 31st Division at Neihorster list.


Madej is partly wrong here: The infantry regiments that formed 31st Division were not newly formed by reservist, they were regiments that had become independent when 13th, 18th, and 116th Divisions were triangularized.


Excuse me Kereguelen, You are right.
124th Infantry Regiment was detached from 18th Division.
138th Infantry Regiment was detached from 116th Division.
58th Infantry Regiment was detached from 13rd Division.

About 10th Independent (or Mixed?) Brigade at China I am researching.

Cheers

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 23
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/17/2007 5:11:03 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

124th Infantry Regiment was detached from 18th Division.


The 124th was part of Kawaguchi's Brigade on G-canal in Fall 42.  It was for all intents and purposes destroyed there.  So it would make sense that a 124th reincarnation in 1943 might be basically composed of reservists.

Speculating more or less -----
Seems to me that the 18th is a triangular division when it lands in Malaya in 1941.  So they attach a 4th regiment first then decide to triangularize the division and detach it to the 31st 

Also wasn't the Kawaguchi Brigade (35th) half of a square division that was in China Exp Army on 12/07/41.

< Message edited by spence -- 7/17/2007 5:16:57 AM >

(in reply to Fletcher)
Post #: 24
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/17/2007 11:15:21 AM   
Kereguelen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

quote:

124th Infantry Regiment was detached from 18th Division.


The 124th was part of Kawaguchi's Brigade on G-canal in Fall 42. It was for all intents and purposes destroyed there. So it would make sense that a 124th reincarnation in 1943 might be basically composed of reservists.


Yes, probably. But the regiment was never officially disbanded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
Speculating more or less -----
Seems to me that the 18th is a triangular division when it lands in Malaya in 1941. So they attach a 4th regiment first then decide to triangularize the division and detach it to the 31st


18th was not triangular, 35th Brigade was just detached. The division converted to a triangular division in April 1943.

quote:

ORIGINAL: spence
Also wasn't the Kawaguchi Brigade (35th) half of a square division that was in China Exp Army on 12/07/41.


No, just 35th Brigade HQ with 124th Regiment and some signal units under command.

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 25
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/18/2007 7:58:29 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Ok so 35th Bde and 124th Regt were detached from 18th Divsion as the "Kawaguchi Brigade" thus the 18th functioned as a "triangular" division while in Malaya.

orbat.com/site/history/historical/malaysia/malayan1941.html

Seems to me that the 35th Bde on 12/07/41 in WITP has the equivalent of another regt of infantry in its TOE. In UV I recall it definitely has 2 regts of infantry. Where'd the other one come from?

< Message edited by spence -- 7/18/2007 8:10:24 PM >

(in reply to Kereguelen)
Post #: 26
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/18/2007 8:16:54 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		There are two ways to read the question. One way is "where did the other binary brigade come from?" The answer to that is it is 65th Brigade. A strange organization, originally a single regiment, it eventually controlled no less than three regiments, yet these were all two battalion affairs (at the time there were three) - making it a six battalion brigade (whereas when formed it was a three battalion one regiment formation with slightly stronger attachments). Its commander didn't have much regard for its possibilities either - being green and newly raised troops. In this case the regiments must have actually reorganized, because Japanese infantry regiments as such didn't have two battalions - yet we find 65th brigade with three such regiments. I treat it as a binary brigade of six battalion size - because code divides a brigade into two parts. We could call it a "brigade-division" - which means we put "brigade" in its name and give it the suffex division - with exactly the same strength - but then it would divide into two parts. Looking - I see this was indeed what we have done. Two other cases are "division" brigades - divisions with two sub regiments are given the suffex brigade so they divide into two parts vice three. [56th division brigade is one and 55th division brigade is the other]

The other way to read the question is "where did the other regiment of 35th Brigade come from?" The answer is - it didn't. That is, our 35th Independent Infantry Brigade - the only one we have - has 144 "squads" in the line - just as other brigades with one regiment do - so it is not a binary unit. IF it divides, presumably it forms two reinforced battalion combat teams. IF this unit SHOULD have a second infantry regiment, we will need to change it. [This unit is slot 1137. It has 270 squads in stock - which I cannot justify - and 104 squads in CHS - which is based on a different model than we use in RHS - where we count "fire teams" as WITP squads - and each IJA squad has two of these - meaning we are only claiming 72 actual squads. But we also separate out the MMG - and I think these may be counted as CHS squads - since they do not have MMG as separate units. We have 28 Type 92 AA "HMG" - the parens meaning that is the literal name - and we consider it an MMG.] 72 actual squads plus 28 MMG squads = 100 total squads - very very close to CHS 104 squads - and actually weaker - but in our view better modeled and more combat effective. How stock got 270 squads I have no clue? [FYI we give US Army squads two fire teams - and after a certain point USMC squads get 3 fire teams. A really big difference in RHS is that, because of adding MMG squads, US formations gain hundreds of squads in the line - often very high numbers of hundreds. We also added the smaller mortars (but drew the line at the 50mm Japanese "knee mortar" - which we regard as organic to the squads although technically it is attached at platoon level down to the squads). Later US formations are simply gigantic in squad counts if you add fire teams, MMG, HMG, and the 60mm mortars. But we think that too is better modeling. IJA looks very good vs Allied colonial infantry formations - including the Philippine Division which is virtual colonial infantry - theoretically square but with only three regiments - two of those being Filipino troops - and the later scale of heavy weapons not being used. IJA looks a lot less good if you throw in all the heavy weapons in later line US formations. All of which seems right.]

A line IJA squad normally divides into an LMG team and an AT team - the first army in the world to make organic AT teams part of every line infantry squads (although specialist units - e.g. airborne - didn't do that). Operationally these units could function together or separately - and doctrinally the AT team should go off on offensive missions at night - when Allied units would "dig in". But if pressed, you had two tactical units per squad in the line in any action.

< Message edited by el cid again -- 7/18/2007 8:41:15 PM >

(in reply to spence)
Post #: 27
RE: RHS- IJA 10th Infantry Division - 7/19/2007 12:18:13 AM   
Kereguelen


Posts: 1829
Joined: 5/13/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el cid again

There are two ways to read the question. One way is "where did the other binary brigade come from?" The answer to that is it is 65th Brigade. A strange organization, originally a single regiment, it eventually controlled no less than three regiments, yet these were all two battalion affairs (at the time there were three) - making it a six battalion brigade (whereas when formed it was a three battalion one regiment formation with slightly stronger attachments). Its commander didn't have much regard for its possibilities either - being green and newly raised troops. In this case the regiments must have actually reorganized, because Japanese infantry regiments as such didn't have two battalions - yet we find 65th brigade with three such regiments.


Nice explanation, but wrong. 65th Brigade was not formed from a single regiment, it was formed from 65th Independent Infantry Group, which had three reserve regiments with two battalions each (like the other Independent Infantry Groups located in Japan).

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 28
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