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First turn surprise - 7/29/2007 1:56:39 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		I have been considering this for some time now. Really, only 1 base was truely caught by surprise during the opening stages of the war. Japan intentionally kept their BBs at home (home meaning in Japan) and didnt have landing forces heading near any allied bases (except the folks going to support their ally in southern Thailand from the Imperialist British in Malaya, of course. The Wake force was enroute but that could always be explained as they were heading back to Japan. Not that huge of a course difference.

I have had allied (edit: oops, I mean Jap) players land in Kendari on turn 1, Midway on turn 2, Palmyra on turn 3. Rabul on turn 1 is almost a gimme along with northern Borneo and the southern PI, ect.

I am wondering how any of these forces could make their approach without "alerting" the allies. I mean after all, they were already on a war alert. Only Hawaii didnt take it seriously. If Jap ships are reported heading east from Kwajalein, south from Truk, south west of Palau, how could the allies NOT react? And why shouldnt they be able to? The more thought I give it, the more I am convinced that if you dont have a historical first turn, there should be no first turn surprise and the allies should be free to move on turn 1 as well. Especially if Jap BBs have left home waters and/or landing forces are heading to long range targets (esp south and east or into the PI / NEI). People fail to take into consideration that there are civilian aircraft and ships out there as well as the military units in the game. The reason the Pearl Harbor striking force came in and left via the northern route was to minimalize their chances of being seen by these civilians.

Just a thought.

< Message edited by Yamato hugger -- 7/29/2007 2:05:45 PM >
Post #: 1
RE: First turn surprise - 7/29/2007 2:09:06 PM   
tabpub


Posts: 1019
Joined: 8/10/2003
From: The Greater Chicagoland Area
Status: offline 		Tell the truth...

You are really Mike Scholl....c'mon....fess up....

Seriously, if IJA/N player(s) have these goals, then yes, no holds barred on the surprise thing; it should be out the window.

Editted to say: Just funning there Mike S.

< Message edited by tabpub -- 7/29/2007 2:10:32 PM >

_____________________________

Sing to the tune of "Man on the Flying Trapeze"
..Oh! We fly o'er the treetops with inches to spare,
There's smoke in the cockpit and gray in my hair.
The tracers look fine as a strafin' we go.
But, brother, we're TOO God damn low...

(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 2
RE: First turn surprise - 7/29/2007 2:40:20 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		I've experimented a little bit with 1st turn surprise OFF and it seems to make little difference in combat resolution.  Combining Surprise OFF and free Allied movement before the first turn might offer a few extra attacks but as an experiment I've put up every US fighter on CAP over PH and the number of IJN planes shot down/damaged, number of ships hit/sunk, and base damage is virtually the same as with Surprise ON.  Same at Clark Field although there one time the damage to the field didn't put the field out of commission.  It did seem to make a difference in the number of Buffs on CAP at Singapore and the number of Nells that got shot down/damaged was about twice as many as with Surprise ON.  (For most of these experiments I just let the Jap AI do a "normal" 1st turn. A PBEM Rising Sun (scenario 2) was begun with Surprise OFF (but without a pre-game move) and there were no remarkable results really other than that the bombers at Clark Field flew a mission on Dec 7th.  

(in reply to tabpub)
Post #: 3
RE: First turn surprise - 7/29/2007 3:10:00 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		For WITP, surprise only seems to effect the airstrikes against airfields and ports one turn one.
Limited response from defending AC, that's about it.
The combat seems to be normal for the game, even with the defenders being outnumbered.

The kicker is the 3 week bonus move and KB fueled up 100%.

Then again, that's why some of us insist on houserules.

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(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 4
RE: First turn surprise - 7/29/2007 3:40:56 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Well the allies being able to move is more the point. Yes, they dont get the 21 days of movement, but they DO get 100% load meaning things can be on the way to garrison places that the "Jap player" knows arent garrisoned or are under garrisoned.

(and yes, Im busted. Im really Mike S. I just like to argue with myself in public from time to time )

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 5
RE: First turn surprise - 7/29/2007 7:39:01 PM   
tanksone


Posts: 390
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: St Paul, Mn.
Status: offline 		Hi, so are you looking to tweak or improve your Packer sweep.





(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 6
RE: First turn surprise - 7/29/2007 9:16:12 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tanksone

Hi, so are you looking to tweak or improve your Packer sweep.









That move is using scen 16, which starts Dec 8th. And no, I have yet to find someone that can stop it. YOU saw it 3 times and couldnt

(in reply to tanksone)
Post #: 7
RE: First turn surprise - 7/29/2007 11:26:04 PM   
moses

 

Posts: 2252
Joined: 7/7/2002
Status: offline 		Allowing the Japanese player to "tailor" his first move is like playing chess at rooks odds.


(in reply to Yamato hugger)
Post #: 8
RE: First turn surprise - 7/30/2007 12:41:06 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Hum,

A name change might be in order here ....





Attachment (1)

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(in reply to moses)
Post #: 9
RE: First turn surprise - 7/30/2007 12:55:12 AM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		If you going to change the name, make it Arizona Hugger

BBs Baby! Nimitz was a sub skipper

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 10
RE: First turn surprise - 7/30/2007 6:13:17 AM   
tanksone


Posts: 390
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: St Paul, Mn.
Status: offline 		Hi, yes but the game did. I'm still waiting for your new and improved opening that you said you would send me.




(in reply to moses)
Post #: 11
RE: First turn surprise - 7/30/2007 1:46:01 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Actually I havent played stock since just after 1.806. I have 2 CHS games going ATM, both with me as Japs (and ran "the sweep" in both - well running it in one, we are only at Jan 1 in that game). The one is 2 day turns and we are closing in on June 42. I lost the Akagi early Dec at Pearl (taking 2 carriers with her), and the Kaga about a month later off Oz (taking 2 more with her and damaging 2). Best game I have played in a long time. The 2 day turns really slows down the pace of the Japs. I havent taken Singapore or Palembang yet (although both will fall within the next few turns). I do however have all of northern Oz, New Caladonia, and Moresby. This is where I am usually in mid-Feb 42 in stock. Nice change of pace. The 2 day turn one was a non-historical start, but I didnt penetrate any of the areas that would trigger an allied non-surprise. In other words no early running into the NEI or PI. No transports moving east of Kwaj or south of Truk, no landings on Borneo or southern Malaya, ect. The other one was a historical start.

I wouldnt be able to handle a 3rd game as Japs right now. Maybe an allied one, but definately not Japs.

(in reply to tanksone)
Post #: 12
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