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RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what?

 
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RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 2:47:13 AM   
Terminus


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Not until after the Jap air raids had stopped. They received Mk VIII's to move forward to Morotai.

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RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 4:25:46 AM   
Reg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

The Spits were trounced by Zeros over Darwin...


No aircraft enters service without some sort of teething troubles and the introduction of the Spitfire (Capstan) into the defence of Northern Australian was certainly no exception.

Unfortunately unrealistic expectations preceded the arrival of the new aircraft and their slightly dissappointing debut due to factors not related to the aircraft itself brought a lot of unwarranted criticism. As stated below, their presence eventually closed down Japanese attacks on Northern Australia so there is no argument as to their effectiveness.

The following quotation is quite a good summay of the events concerning the early performance of the Spitfire Squadrons.

quote:

Spitfire, Mustang and Kittyhawk in Australian Service, by Stewart Wilson. Aerospace Publications Pty Ltd, Sydney, 1988. ISBN 0 9587978 1 1. p36.

Defending The Top End

With the formation of No 1 ('Churchill') Wing. comprising the RAF's No 54 Squadron and Nos 452 and 475 (RAAF) Squadrons, the defence of the Darwin area was being handled by a formidable force equipped with Spitfire VCs. The Wing was under the command of the legendary W/C Clive Caldwell, Australia's top scoring fighter ace with 20.5 victories confirmed, all of them against German and Italian aircraft while flying Curtiss P-40 Tomahawks and Kittyhawks with the Desert Air Force. Caldwell's time on Spitfires would add eight to that tally by war's end, seven of those while based in Northern Australia.

The Wing moved to the Darwin area in early February 1943, 54 Squadron to Darwin itself, 452 to Strauss Field south of the city and 457 to nearby Livingstone. It replaced Nos 76 and 77 (Kittyhawk) Squadrons, neither of which had seen a lot of action in the area. These RAAF units had in turn replaced the USAAF's 49th Fighter Group (also with Kittyhawks) , a unit which had borne the brunt of the first five months of the defence of Darwin and had endured almost consistent fighting.

Early operations were of mixed success, the negative side of it all stemming from the Spitfire's inadequate fuel capacity and a lack of proper tactics. At first there was success when a 54 Squadron Spitfire flown by Flt Lt Foster shot down a Mitsubishi Ki.46 'Dinah twin engined reconnaissance aircraft over the sea near Darwin.

It wasn't until nearly a month later that the Wing got another chance for action when a force of 16 Japanese aircraft (nine 'Kates' and sixteen 'Zeros') were intercepted during a daylight attack on 31 Squadron's Beaufighters at Coomalie. Caldwell personally led 54 Squadron in this action -bagging a 'Zero' while he was at it -and the final tally for the day was three Japanese aircraft destroyed for the loss of no Spitfires.

457 Squadron scored its first Australian 'kill' a few days later when another 'Dinah' was shot down, and throughout most of the rest of March further raids were intercepted by the Wing. The biggest battle was on March 15, when all three squadrons rose to meet the substantial force of 22 'Betty' bombers and no fewer than 27 escorting 'Zeros'.

A large dogfight ensued, resulting in the destruction of six Japanese bombers and two fighters at the cost of four Spitfires. More importantly, sufficient bombers got through to set some oil tanks on fire. One of the more successful pilots on that sortie was 452 Squadron's Fit Lt Alan Goldsmith, who shot down two aircraft and went on to become Australia's fourth highest scoring ace of the war with 16 victories to his credit.

Goldsmith's combat report gave a hint of troubles to come when he wrote: "landed with 3 galls petrol..."

After another few weeks of relative inactivity, the Japanese raid on Darwin of May 2 proved to provide the 'crunch' for Spitfire operations in the area and a complete re-think of tactics came about as a result.

On this occasion, Darwin's rudimentary radar picked up a force of 18 bombers and 27 fighters approaching the city at 30,000 feet. No 1 Wing scrambled but despite their advance warning did not get to the enemy formation until after it had dropped its bombs on Darwin. The skirmish which followed resulted in the destruction of just two Japanese aircraft at the cost of 13 Spitfires lost -five shot down, five due to fuel starvation and three because of engine failure and/or runaway propellers due to constant speed governor failure. Of the latter eight, all but two were eventually recovered, but the initial figures caused grave concern and allowed the press and some politicians something of a field day over the effectiveness of the Spitfire.

The problem and the losses stemmed from two causes -that the battle took place an ever increasing distance away from the Spitfires' bases; and that some hard dogfighting was indulged in by the pilots. The first factor stretched the Spitfire's meagre fuel reserves to such an extent that five aircraft had insufficient fuel to return home after the battle -despite Caldwell's warnings to his pilots to constantly monitor their fuel state; the second put the Japanese 'Zekes' in the box seat as not even a Spitfire could hope to outman oeuvre the nimble Mitsubishi in a dogfight and, of course, such flying used up fuel at an alarming rate.

The Spitfire received very bad press in Australia as a result of this action, although the losses were not so much a result of the aircraft itself, but due to incorrect tactics. After all, the American P-40 pilots of the 49th Fighter Group had learned months ago not to dogfight a Zero... As for the Spitfire -more fuel certainly wouldn't have hurt.

The Advisory War Council set up an official enquiry into what the public perceived as being a debacle -fuelled by the daily press -and the Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshall George Jones, reported to it.

The result was the decision to fit drop tanks to the Spitfires and to ban dogfighting in the classical sense of the word. From now on, No 1 Wing's Spitfires would 'bounce' enemy formations from above, diving through them, shooting as they went.

The new hit and run tactics were tested to the full during the next Japanese raid on Darwin on June 20 when 25 bombers escorted by a healthy number of 'Zeros' was intercepted. This time the result was much more satisfactory for the pilots of 54, 452 and 457 Squadrons: 16 enemy aircraft were downed for the loss of only two Spitfires. During this engagement Wng Cdr Caldwell achieved another level of 'acedom' by shooting down his fifth Japanese aircraft, adding to the 20.5 Axis aircraft he'd already accounted for in North Africa.

Other battles had meanwhile taken place, the Wing intercepting raids on other targets in Northern Australia and coming out well in front. In fact it was during this period, that this mixture of British and Australian pilots effectively ended Japanese ambitions in the Darwin area, in combination with the Allies' increasingly successful campaign against the Japanese in New Guinea.

Despite the air superiority established by No 1 Wing's Spitfires by the second half of 1943, the Japanese continued mounting the occasional raid against Northern Australia but by the end of the year attacks on Darwin had ceased. The last large enemy formation to fly over that city was in early September when a single 'Dinah' on a reconnaissance mission arrived with an escort of no fewer than 20 'Zeros'. Obviously the Japanese had become tired of their previously unaccompanied 'Dinahs' failing to return home with the intelligence information required.

On this occasion the Wing put up the not insubstantial force of 46 Spitfires but, despite it having nearly an hour's warning thanks to radar and larger number of aircraft, the enemy aircraft still had the advantage of height when the initial skirmish broke out and came onto the Spitfires from above. The score was three-all at first, but improved to seven-four in favour of the Spifires as they chased the Japanese away.


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Reg.

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(in reply to Dili)
Post #: 62
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 4:29:57 AM   
RUPD3658


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bobogoboom

quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658


quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk


quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

I hate the Dallas Cowgirls with a passion.



You're obviously confused, delirious, have bad taste or suffered blunt force trauma.

I think we can both agree we hate the iggles tho.


E-A-G-L-E-S! EAGLES!!!!!!

You dishonor the thread by making pro eagles comments.


Born in NJ but raised in Philly before moving back to NJ.

I like the Eagles,, Phillies, and play Japan in WiTP. Do you see a pattern here? Winning is not an option.


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Post #: 63
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 7:33:03 AM   
crsutton


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Well, I know the spit was an excellent fighter but you win wars by projecting air power deep into enemy airspace. The spit was just not made for that.  It is hard to find a use for it offensively. Did the later war spits have better range?



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Post #: 64
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 11:08:17 AM   
bobogoboom


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658
Born in NJ but raised in Philly before moving back to NJ.

I like the Eagles,, Phillies, and play Japan in WiTP. Do you see a pattern here? Winning is not an option.


I can tell

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Post #: 65
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 11:13:21 AM   
mc3744


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, I know the spit was an excellent fighter but you win wars by projecting air power deep into enemy airspace. The spit was just not made for that. It is hard to find a use for it offensively. Did the later war spits have better range?




In game they do. The VIII has a range of (5).

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Post #: 66
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 11:50:11 AM   
Reg


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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Well, I know the spit was an excellent fighter but you win wars by projecting air power deep into enemy airspace. The spit was just not made for that.  It is hard to find a use for it offensively. Did the later war spits have better range?


Not really.

Sources vary but without drop tanks, the Spitfire V had a range of about 470 miles, the Mk IX (which was a Mk V derivative) was about 434 miles, the Mk VIII had 660 miles, Mk XII was 328 miles (thirsty Griffon engine), Mk XVIII had 700 miles and the Mk 21/22/24 had a range of 580 miles.

For comparison the P-51D was rated at 950 miles on internal fuel. P-40B was good for 800 miles, P-40E for 670 miles. The P-40N-1 had a reduced armament and fuel load (reinstated in P-40N-5 and later models) for a range of 550 miles.

_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to crsutton)
Post #: 67
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 1:03:25 PM   
Terminus


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Yeah... Nobody ever claimed the Spitfire had long legs, but to call it "useless" is a massive overstatement.

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Post #: 68
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 2:37:15 PM   
bbbf

 

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Nice quotation Reg.

One thing I find interesting was the line "rudimentary radar".   This was in Darwin in 43.

In WITP every Allied player under any pressure in Darwin will have masses of the best radar systems in place - ensuring no Japanese plane can fly within cooee of the base with out detection.

The ease with which radar operates in the game is screwy.




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Post #: 69
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 2:39:11 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah... Nobody ever claimed the Spitfire had long legs, but to call it "useless" is a massive overstatement.


Exactly... we have to look at the European late 1930's picture for it... the Sptifire and Hurricane for British were counterpart for German Me-109... all weer "short legged"....


Leo "Apollo11"

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Post #: 70
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 2:58:24 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah... Nobody ever claimed the Spitfire had long legs, but to call it "useless" is a massive overstatement.


Exactly... we have to look at the European late 1930's picture for it... the Sptifire and Hurricane for British were counterpart for German Me-109... all weer "short legged"....


Leo "Apollo11"


Fighters in the RAF were solely intended to counter enemy bombers. Pre-war thinking held that fighter vs fighter combat was too stressful and maneuvering at hish speeds was impossible. Hence fighters were intended for short range defence against bombers rather then long range penetrations into enemy airspace.

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Post #: 71
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 3:02:58 PM   
Apollo11


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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah... Nobody ever claimed the Spitfire had long legs, but to call it "useless" is a massive overstatement.


Exactly... we have to look at the European late 1930's picture for it... the Sptifire and Hurricane for British were counterpart for German Me-109... all weer "short legged"....


Fighters in the RAF were solely intended to counter enemy bombers. Pre-war thinking held that fighter vs fighter combat was too stressful and maneuvering at hish speeds was impossible. Hence fighters were intended for short range defence against bombers rather then long range penetrations into enemy airspace.


And let's not forget that there was maxime that "Bomber's will always pass trough" that ruled the thinking of most European (and US BTW) air forces at the time...


Leo "Apollo11"

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A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 72
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 4:45:43 PM   
Reg


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I don't know if you noticed it but isn't 30,000 ft a rather unusual height for the Japanese to operate?? (An almost ETO altitude in fact!!) They must have had a very healthy respect for Darwin's defences.

No wonder the Spitfires burnt a lot of their limited fuel getting to altitude, usually engaged at a height disadvantage and had trouble intercepting formations before the bombers dropped despite plenty of warning*.

* By the way, the Darwin defences made extensive use of Coastwatchers on Bathurst and Melville Islands and didn't just rely on radar to detect incoming raids.

< Message edited by Reg -- 8/4/2007 4:51:05 PM >


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(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
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Post #: 73
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 4:46:46 PM   
Terminus


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I'm surprised that the Japs hit anything at all from that altitude...

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RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 4:52:27 PM   
AW1Steve


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A rare individual! I can understand about the Red Sox. They broke my heart way too many times to ever make up for it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

quote:

A former Vermonter who roots for the Yankees? Say it ain't so! In some parts of New England , that's a capital offense.


Actually, for sports teams, I have only one NY based team (or close to it). I am a "die hard" NY Giants fan.
I have DirecTV only for Sunday Ticket.
I am a Boston Celtics fan.
I am a Montreal Canadian and Expos fan (they may be the Nationals, but I became a fan when the team was formed in the 60's).

I hate the Dallas Cowgirls with a passion.
I dislike George and thus am a fan of teams playing the "evil empire." But, could care less about how well the Red Sox do or don't do.


(in reply to ny59giants)
Post #: 75
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 5:51:11 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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ny59giants: "went to college in NE Georgia."

Which school did you attend? There aren't many colleges in NE Georgia...

proud alumnus of UGA, class of '81 (a very good year!).

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 76
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/4/2007 6:25:21 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

ny59giants: "went to college in NE Georgia."

Which school did you attend? There aren't many colleges in NE Georgia...

proud alumnus of UGA, class of '81 (a very good year!).


Went to a Christian college in Toccoa,GA called Toccoa Falls College. Then jumped the border and got my Master's in Community Agency Counseling at Clemson. Now am a Mobile Crisis Counselor for children/adolescents. Thus, like today, I am "on call" at home and can play WitP while at work.

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RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/5/2007 9:35:26 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Oh yeah, I know that area... My best friend was the financing manager for a furniture store in Toccoa in the mid '80's. He was renting a place on Lake Hartwell for one of those summers... made a great weekend getaway.

And don't forget, Currahee Mountain is just outside the town...

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fair winds,
Brad

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Post #: 78
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/5/2007 1:41:43 PM   
ny59giants


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That was the college in the mid-70's that had the dam break above the college and flooded the area. They were able to rebuild and now it a very different looking place.

I did a lot of mnt biking around the mountain.


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Post #: 79
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/5/2007 6:05:31 PM   
06 Maestro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Lots of people don't like it...



Try "Many people do not like that"-less guttural.

But that's OK, I understood you.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 80
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/5/2007 7:45:25 PM   
bradfordkay

 

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" I did a lot of mnt biking around the mountain."

Same here... mostly in the game management area, right? I fell off a small cliff there while leaning over to dodge the overhang from the other side of the trail (this is the trail running along one of the creeks - it has been so long that I don't recall the name of the creek). Luckily, I hit a small tree (about two-three inches in diameter) on the way down - it bent over and laid me on the ground as softly as you can please...

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Post #: 81
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/5/2007 8:33:04 PM   
Terminus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: 06 Maestro


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Lots of people don't like it...



Try "Many people do not like that"-less guttural.

But that's OK, I understood you.



_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to 06 Maestro)
Post #: 82
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/5/2007 10:54:17 PM   
ny59giants


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quote:

Same here... mostly in the game management area, right? I fell off a small cliff there while leaning over to dodge the overhang from the other side of the trail (this is the trail running along one of the creeks - it has been so long that I don't recall the name of the creek). Luckily, I hit a small tree (about two-three inches in diameter) on the way down - it bent over and laid me on the ground as softly as you can please...


Your not a true mtn biker until you have gone over the handlebars at least once. There was state park up next to Rte 17 that was for ATV's. The ruts were bad, but added more of a challenge.

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Post #: 83
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/6/2007 1:22:51 AM   
crsutton


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Yeah... Nobody ever claimed the Spitfire had long legs, but to call it "useless" is a massive overstatement.


Exactly... we have to look at the European late 1930's picture for it... the Sptifire and Hurricane for British were counterpart for German Me-109... all weer "short legged"....


Leo "Apollo11"


Well, yes but did not doctrine of that era think that heavy bombers did not need escort.
Events prooved that wrong. It really is why the 109 (once again, a great fighter) was not a great airplane. The idea of solely denfensive fighters was really not a the right solution. Sort of like the American's adoption of tank destroyers. Eventually, it was realized that all around capable tanks (and aircraft) were really much better and more useful.

I realize of course that there were many short legged tactical planes, such as on the Russian front, that were very effective, but really range is an absolute necessity for a war winning aircraft.



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Post #: 84
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/6/2007 2:11:18 AM   
Terminus


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This I'll grant you. The Spitfire was a battle-winner, but not a war-winner.

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Post #: 85
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/6/2007 2:22:58 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kaleun

quote:

"Oh brother where are thee


Loved the music though.
I bought the soundtrack, and found out it is actually a retelling of the Odissey.
The more things change, the more they stay the same.
You've got to love Homer.



HOMER!!!





Attachment (1)

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Post #: 86
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/6/2007 2:28:24 PM   
Terminus


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Wrong Homer...

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Post #: 87
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/6/2007 2:34:17 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bbbf

Nice quotation Reg.

One thing I find interesting was the line "rudimentary radar".   This was in Darwin in 43.

In WITP every Allied player under any pressure in Darwin will have masses of the best radar systems in place - ensuring no Japanese plane can fly within cooee of the base with out detection.

The ease with which radar operates in the game is screwy.

All RADAR/SONAR has been tweaked to the Nth degree in RHS, all versions....




_____________________________




(in reply to bbbf)
Post #: 88
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/6/2007 2:41:39 PM   
m10bob


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Wrong Homer...


Thought they were referring to the one who wrote "The Idiot"??


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Post #: 89
RE: Spitfires, totally useless or what? - 8/6/2007 2:43:06 PM   
Terminus


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That was Dostoevsky...

"Oh Brother, Where Art Thou?" is based on Homer's "Odyssey"...

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Post #: 90
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