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RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 3:47:53 AM   
ravinhood


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Status: offline 		I've heard playing WitP is like taking accounting 101 102 and 103 altogether in one semester. lol

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RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 4:25:58 AM   
Halsey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I've heard playing WitP is like taking accounting 101 102 and 103 altogether in one semester. lol


Best game out there.

Years of playability.
Not many games out there that can claim that title.

For the cost, it's the best investment in gaming that's available.




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Post #: 92
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 5:21:21 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey


Best game out there.

Years of playability.
Not many games out there that can claim that title.

For the cost, it's the best investment in gaming that's available.






Agreed,


The depth is staggering not to mention the longevity . Sadly I believe WITP is the last of the giants PC war gamming will offer.

The ground combat is way to abstract ,but overall will hold a top slot of my all time list


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Post #: 93
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 12:51:42 PM   
ravinhood


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quote:

Best game out there.




You guys ever hear of Value Judgement:

[
Noun
  • S: (n) value judgment, value judgement (an assessment that reveals more about the values of the person making the assessment than about the reality of what is assessed) ]

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Post #: 94
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 3:19:28 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I've heard playing WitP is like taking accounting 101 102 and 103 altogether in one semester. lol


Not really. In view of its complexity and scope it actually manages surprisingly well to avoid that sort of feeling; you really do feel you are organising a war rather than a spreadsheet, which is more than can be said for an awful lot of strategy games out there.


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

You guys ever hear of Value Judgement:

[
Noun
  • S: (n) value judgment, value judgement (an assessment that reveals more about the values of the person making the assessment than about the reality of what is assessed) ]



And how does the judgement of a game by somebody who has never played it fit in with that, do you think?!!

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Post #: 95
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 3:52:59 PM   
ravinhood


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Status: offline 		And how do you know I've never "played" it? You really should stop having delusions like that Herston ole boy. We shouldn't have to go into this have to own it to know anything about it routine everytime something is said about a game. ;) I don't own a Mercedes, but, I've driven them before. ;)

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Post #: 96
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 6:25:37 PM   
JudgeDredd


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And how do you know I've never "played" it? You really should stop having delusions like that Herston ole boy. We shouldn't have to go into this have to own it to know anything about it routine everytime something is said about a game. ;) I don't own a Mercedes, but, I've driven them before. ;)

so you have actually played it? Really?

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Post #: 97
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 6:28:24 PM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood
I don't own a Mercedes, but, I've driven them before. ;)


Now I know you are full of it , if you did nothing else would ever do .

Assuming you did not shell out over $15 bucks for another one of your bargain bid gems is hardly a stretch.

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Post #: 98
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 7:44:26 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


Posts: 4921
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Status: offline 		Best Matrix game?

Best, for me very personally:
- WITP, hands down, I lost more hours playing WITP than any other game, ever

Best game design all round, considering that WITP *is* too complex for 99,99% of humanity:
- GG World at War - magnificent, simple yet deep game design, incidentally this is also a GG game like WITP, so take two guesses as to which game designer and development team is my favorite

Probably the best Matrix hardcore military game:
- HTTR/COTA series. However I can't get rid of the feeling that there's always something missing from those excellent games that would make them great, more popular etc.   

Honorable mention:
- TOAW - before WITP my most played game ever. Matrix didn't do everything they could and should have done with TOAW when they got the license, but it's still a must-have title for every wargamer and would be wargamer.  



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Post #: 99
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 8:26:41 PM   
Hertston


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And how do you know I've never "played" it?



Just call it gut instinct

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Post #: 100
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 8:53:05 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Sadly I believe WITP is the last of the giants PC war gamming will offer.


Don't be so sure...


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Post #: 101
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 9:07:04 PM   
LarryP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Sadly I believe WITP is the last of the giants PC war gamming will offer.


Don't be so sure...


Something you want to say here and can't??

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Post #: 102
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 9:26:00 PM   
Manticore

 

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Status: offline 		The only thing that is holding me back from purchasing WITP is that I heard that it has a very inadequate AI. What good is all that complexity (which I love) if the AI doesn't even put up a challenge? I am not trying to put down what Matrix has done, but I think AI is what's holding back the gaming industry more than anything.

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Post #: 103
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 9:44:43 PM   
LarryP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manticore

The only thing that is holding me back from purchasing WITP is that I heard that it has a very inadequate AI. What good is all that complexity (which I love) if the AI doesn't even put up a challenge? I am not trying to put down what Matrix has done, but I think AI is what's holding back the gaming industry more than anything.


The AI in WitP can kick my butt. I've read complaints about the interface but not so much the AI.

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Post #: 104
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/26/2007 9:58:52 PM   
shunwick


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Best Matrix game?

Best, for me very personally:
- WITP, hands down, I lost more hours playing WITP than any other game, ever

Best game design all round, considering that WITP *is* too complex for 99,99% of humanity:
- GG World at War - magnificent, simple yet deep game design, incidentally this is also a GG game like WITP, so take two guesses as to which game designer and development team is my favorite

Probably the best Matrix hardcore military game:
- HTTR/COTA series. However I can't get rid of the feeling that there's always something missing from those excellent games that would make them great, more popular etc.   

Honorable mention:
- TOAW - before WITP my most played game ever. Matrix didn't do everything they could and should have done with TOAW when they got the license, but it's still a must-have title for every wargamer and would be wargamer.  




TOAW is still in development of course. And in good hands.

Games are too subjective to have any kind of meaningful appraisal beyond a) This one really stinks or b) This is worth looking at. I have WitP and I play it but it doesn't grab me like TOAW. In the end, you pays yer money and takes yer choice...

Best wishes,



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Post #: 105
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 12:14:52 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Manticore

The only thing that is holding me back from purchasing WITP is that I heard that it has a very inadequate AI. What good is all that complexity (which I love) if the AI doesn't even put up a challenge?


I believe who ever you heard that from is commenting out of context . AI is just that AI , believe me the AI in WITP is far from retarded .

There is more then enough re-playability in single player , I have played a total of three PBEM scenarios since purchase., hell it took me a couple months just to grasp the depth and complexity WITP had to offer.

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Post #: 106
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 12:16:58 AM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


Don't be so sure...




Don’t worry , I got my eye on it

< Message edited by Sarge -- 8/27/2007 12:17:27 AM >

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Post #: 107
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 12:23:13 AM   
Halsey

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

quote:

Best game out there.




You guys ever hear of Value Judgement:

[
Noun
  • S: (n) value judgment, value judgement (an assessment that reveals more about the values of the person making the assessment than about the reality of what is assessed) ]



You know about opinions, too?


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Post #: 108
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 12:28:01 AM   
LarryP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

You know about opinions, too?


I got one, I got one! Ewww, it smells.

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Post #: 109
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 2:27:39 AM   
Zap


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Sadly I believe WITP is the last of the giants PC war gamming will offer.


Don't be so sure...



Eric, Oh how you love to tease us!

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Post #: 110
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 6:59:59 AM   
ilovestrategy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And how do you know I've never "played" it? You really should stop having delusions like that Herston ole boy. We shouldn't have to go into this have to own it to know anything about it routine everytime something is said about a game. ;) I don't own a Mercedes, but, I've driven them before. ;)

so you have actually played it? Really?


I've tried twice to play but boy does it lose me. If any of you guys ever come to San Diego on vacation or something stop by my house and let me watch you play a few turns

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Now CIV IV has me in it's evil clutches!

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Post #: 111
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 9:33:37 AM   
jvgfanatic

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd


quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

And how do you know I've never "played" it? You really should stop having delusions like that Herston ole boy. We shouldn't have to go into this have to own it to know anything about it routine everytime something is said about a game. ;) I don't own a Mercedes, but, I've driven them before. ;)

so you have actually played it? Really?


I've tried twice to play but boy does it lose me. If any of you guys ever come to San Diego on vacation or something stop by my house and let me watch you play a few turns


It's probably quite scary the number of people who have invested in the game but don't play it. The game's interface makes an overwhelmingly complex game confounding. At one point I noticed someone had written a better data management UI that parsed the WiTP files but I didn't stick around to see if it went anywhere, I hope so...I hope against hope that the core game embraced that little utility and enhanced it because it was definitely a step in the right direction. I should take another peek.

There are just too many players saying "this is the greatest game ever" and not enough saying "but by-god the interface is awful, I need six notebooks just to keep track of anything, and I'm not going to play another turn until you FIX it!" for anything to change.

At least, that was the state of things a year ago :P

I did get a few turns into what I considered an effective game as the Allies but I needed two computers (I wasn't happy with switching windows, I wanted it all in front of me). One computer to run the game, the other computer to run several spreadsheets I had used to take notes on. Oh yeah, and the paper and pencil notebooks I had scrawled pages, and pages, and PAGES of notes on during the learning experience. Anything needing that kind of support has some serious data management and display issues.

< Message edited by jvgfanatic -- 8/27/2007 9:38:13 AM >

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Post #: 112
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 3:37:02 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jvgfanatic
I did get a few turns into what I considered an effective game as the Allies but I needed two computers (I wasn't happy with switching windows, I wanted it all in front of me). One computer to run the game, the other computer to run several spreadsheets I had used to take notes on. Oh yeah, and the paper and pencil notebooks I had scrawled pages, and pages, and PAGES of notes on during the learning experience. Anything needing that kind of support has some serious data management and display issues.


Talking about WITP? While I certainly agree interface could use some improvements it's not NEARLY as hard to use as some people here make it appear.

I used to have 6 PBEMs active simultaneously, playing from different sides (currently I have 3, thinking about taking some more). I never take notes (except for IJN turn 1). I never take more than 30 minutes to do turn (usually less than 5 minutes, I need more only for very complex offensives). And I still do win more games than I lose

It's all in your mind!

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Post #: 113
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 3:58:28 PM   
jvgfanatic

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko


quote:

ORIGINAL: jvgfanatic
I did get a few turns into what I considered an effective game as the Allies but I needed two computers (I wasn't happy with switching windows, I wanted it all in front of me). One computer to run the game, the other computer to run several spreadsheets I had used to take notes on. Oh yeah, and the paper and pencil notebooks I had scrawled pages, and pages, and PAGES of notes on during the learning experience. Anything needing that kind of support has some serious data management and display issues.


Talking about WITP? While I certainly agree interface could use some improvements it's not NEARLY as hard to use as some people here make it appear.

I used to have 6 PBEMs active simultaneously, playing from different sides (currently I have 3, thinking about taking some more). I never take notes (except for IJN turn 1). I never take more than 30 minutes to do turn (usually less than 5 minutes, I need more only for very complex offensives). And I still do win more games than I lose

It's all in your mind!


As a former cognitive science study and a former human interface designer I can pretty much guarantee that it is, in fact, in your mind. That some folks have more difficulty with it than you makes the interface to WiTP no less cumbersome. That you are able to use the game effectively makes it no easier to use, except of course for you. While we can all argue the merits or lack of said of the interface to WiTP the sheer volume of response to the WiTP Decoder speaks to the WiTP interface needing some serious help.

Your points are well taken however it's more braggadocio (and serious kudos to your ability from myself) than astute observation.

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Post #: 114
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 7:08:07 PM   
dinsdale


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Talking about WITP? While I certainly agree interface could use some improvements it's not NEARLY as hard to use as some people here make it appear.

I used to have 6 PBEMs active simultaneously...

By the time you've learnt something well enough, it is of course irrelevant how badly the UI is designed.

You're being able to play 100 simultaneous games is as irrelevant as being able to edit 100 documents in VI. :)

The interface is crap, it requires far too many drill downs to get information. Not only does that require time to learn how to find information, but needless mouse clicks to carry it out.

Time should be almost entirely consumed with developing your strategy, not translating that strategy into orders because the interface is from 1989.

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Post #: 115
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 9:53:12 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Status: offline 		But it does intrigue me.

I want to learn it, and I promise myself I WILL start a game.

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Post #: 116
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 10:01:39 PM   
Oleg Mastruko


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quote:

ORIGINAL: dinsdale

You're being able to play 100 simultaneous games is as irrelevant as being able to edit 100 documents in VI. :)

The interface is crap, it requires far too many drill downs to get information. Not only does that require time to learn how to find information, but needless mouse clicks to carry it out.

Time should be almost entirely consumed with developing your strategy, not translating that strategy into orders because the interface is from 1989.


Extra points for vi editor reference

Well guess who would most like to see WITP interface improved? Yes it's us who play it multiple hours per week!

So no argument from me - interface should be improved, but it's not really that hostile, clumsy or bad.... With a game this complex, even Microsoft would have huge problems inventing a better interface. Problem is we all have our own ideas as to how, where and why the interface should be improved.

Lets put it this way. WITP's complexity might be rated as 10 out of 10, while the UI is say 7/10. I'd rather have 7/10 interface to 10/10 game, than take a risk and end up with a 5/10 interface (to, possibly, 6/10 game)


< Message edited by Oleg Mastruko -- 8/27/2007 10:02:15 PM >

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Post #: 117
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 10:03:01 PM   
LarryP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

But it does intrigue me.

I want to learn it, and I promise myself I WILL start a game.


I've not read so much controversy over any game like I have WitP. I have played it a lot. I hate it and I like it. What I don't like about it I have not seen complained about so much. Buggy scenarios. That's why I use the WitP Decoder and also 3rd party scenarios. The interface? Yeah it's not the best and not the worst. Tooltips would be wonderful! However, there is something about when you get into those turns, it grabs a hold of you in a good way.

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Post #: 118
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 10:45:22 PM   
dinsdale


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko
Extra points for vi editor reference

I shake my head when I see people use it today, thinking that I once knew all those commands

quote:


Well guess who would most like to see WITP interface improved? Yes it's us who play it multiple hours per week!

Yup, I haven't played the game in a while and I'm almost resigned to not playing again because of the learning curve to get things done.

When I was playing, it was always a battle of wills between tedium/aggravation and the enjoyment of a game.

quote:

With a game this complex, even Microsoft would have huge problems inventing a better interface. Problem is we all have our own ideas as to how, where and why the interface should be improved.

I disagree, it's just a matter of investment. Far more complex pieces of software are tamed by interfaces than WiTP.

quote:

Lets put it this way. WITP's complexity might be rated as 10 out of 10, while the UI is say 7/10. I'd rather have 7/10 interface to 10/10 game, than take a risk and end up with a 5/10 interface (to, possibly, 6/10 game)

To me, the game might be ambrosian or utopian, but I won't play it as much if it's as inaccessible as WiTP. There's a limited amount of time I have to play, and the more carpal-tunnel inducing maneuvers and obscure drill downs I have to go through, the less inclined I am to play it.

But that may be the product of sitting in front of a PC at work :)

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)
Post #: 119
RE: Best Matrix Game - 8/27/2007 11:56:51 PM   
Banquet

 

Posts: 1184
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Status: offline 		I know the feeling!

I haven't played WitP for a year or two. It's an amazing game. I still remember the night I finally got it downloaded (took about 36 hours on dialup) I just scrolled around the map in awe, looking at the bases and unit stats.

I struggled to get into it though. Not just the interface but so many of the mechanics seemed so perplexing. The way supplies move from base to base. The whole production aspect appeared so hard to track I can't imagine ever playing the Japanese. I thought a much better job could have been done making those aspects more visible and easier to understand and manipulate.

It's the only game I've played that's 'beaten me' in terms of I realised I'd never fully understand all the things going on under the hood. Like ilovestrategy said, I'd probably benefit from someone physically showing me how they play.. but that ain't gonna happen.

I'd still buy a sequel in a shot though. In the meantime the desktop icon still calls me to double click it and get involved, again, in probably the most massive wargame ever created.. ah, one day




quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

I want to learn it, and I promise myself I WILL start a game.



< Message edited by Banquet -- 8/27/2007 11:58:37 PM >

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