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Jack Tony Tojo - 8/28/2007 10:04:46 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		Should I think about moving production over from the Tony or Tojo to Jack
Its March 43 and the Jack will soon appear do I need three IJAF fighters and why ?

Is the Jack the best one and why ?

I still have good pilots with units mostly 70+ exp some over 80 a few around 60


PDU on Stock 42-46 campaign

Michael
Post #: 1
RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/28/2007 10:18:55 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Jack's Navy, not Army...

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/28/2007 10:19:50 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Well the Army flies the Tony and Tojo and the Navy flies the Jack .. so I wouldn't switch over either way ... I'd run both sets. Uh I DO run both sets!



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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/28/2007 10:39:16 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
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From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		oh my mistake - so the Navy can go from Zeros to jacks .....

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/28/2007 10:40:04 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Land-based IJNAF, yeah... Not carrier-based. And the Jack is worth it.

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/28/2007 11:11:17 PM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

oh my mistake - so the Navy can go from Zeros to jacks .....


Yes, but maybe not all Zeros should go to Jacks. The Jacks have much shorter legs and so the Zeros are still the pre-emminent Betty/Frances escorts. But I've converted about half in my current game with Moses.

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/28/2007 11:21:23 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

oh my mistake - so the Navy can go from Zeros to jacks .....


Yes, but maybe not all Zeros should go to Jacks. The Jacks have much shorter legs and so the Zeros are still the pre-emminent Betty/Frances escorts. But I've converted about half in my current game with Moses.


But the Jack has the not insignificant advantage of being built using Mitsubishi engines - not Nakajima engines as almost all other fighters. So producing many Jacks does not take away any engines from the production of Army fighters (or carrier-based Zeroes). And considering that you can build 2 Jacks for the engines you´d build 1 medium bomber with, you do not cut all that significantly into bomber production, either.

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/28/2007 11:22:04 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Yup... It's all a trade-off...

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 1:09:03 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
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From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Tojo and Jack are both great climbers IRL and should be used where hi flying B 29's are expected..

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 1:30:03 AM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		Unless of course Frank's around to play... Or Shinden...

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 5:19:35 AM   
niceguy2005


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quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Tojo and Jack are both great climbers IRL and should be used where hi flying B 29's are expected..

I don't know if its the pilots or what but so far Jacks are proving to be a real bitch in my game. My P-38 squadrons get no joy from facing off against them.

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 1:21:48 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
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Status: offline 		So the climb rate is v important ?

M

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Post #: 12
RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 1:23:02 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		It's one of the important characteristics, certainly. Speed is probably the most important one.

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 2:20:09 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		IRL climb and speed are very important.
The reason climb rate is (to pilots) the most important is that all planes lose altitude anytime they make a turn. To turn a plane, without losing altitude, a pilot generally will push the throttle forward to feed more fuel, and pull ever so slightly back on the stick, (to keep the plane in a climbing mode, while turning.
The more maneuverable planes will generally have an abulity to turn longer before they lose their altitude and or speed sufficient to stall out.
This is why in WW1 a Fokker Dr1 triplane which only flew at 103 mph (on a good day) was a match for a SPAD 13 with a speed of 137, (truly one of the fastest planes of that war).
BTW, some folks don't know that in WW1 some of the German planes had a little wing between the landing wheels, which of themselves were sufficient to carry the weight of the pilot! The Fokker D 7 comes to mind, as does the D 8..
That little wing was considered a "secret weapon" as important as the later F 86's "floating tailplane"..

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 5:41:43 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for that- interesting

m

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 5:43:44 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

Should I think about moving production over from the Tony or Tojo to Jack
Its March 43 and the Jack will soon appear do I need three IJAF fighters and why ?

Is the Jack the best one and why ?

I still have good pilots with units mostly 70+ exp some over 80 a few around 60


PDU on Stock 42-46 campaign

Michael 


Aircraft         Entry   Upgrade to       Replacement  Type            Navy/Army
                 Date                     Date

A5M4 Claude      Jan-37  A2M2 Zero        Sep-40       Fighter         Navy
A6M2 Zero        Sep-40  A6M3a Zero       Nov-42       Fighter         Navy
A6M3 Zero        Apr-42  A6M5 Zeke        Sep-43       Fighter         Navy
A6M3a Zero       Nov-42  A6M5 Zeke        Sep-43       Fighter         Navy
A6M5 Zeke        Sep-43  A6M8 Zeke        Jun-45       Fighter         Navy
A6M8 Zeke        Jun-45  A7M2 Reppu       Jul-45       Fighter         Navy
A7M2 Reppu       Jul-45  A7M2 Reppu       Jul-45       Fighter         Navy

N1K1-J George    Jan-44  J7W Shinden      Aug-45       Fighter         Navy
J2M Jack         Mar-43  J7W Shinden      Aug-45       Fighter         Navy
J7W Shinden      Aug-45  J7W Shinden      Aug-45       Fighter         Navy

A6M2-N Ruffe     Dec-41  A6M2-N Ruffe     Dec-41       Float Fighter   Navy

A6M5c Zeke       Sep-43  A6M5c Zeke       Sep-43       Fighter Bomber  Navy

J1N1-S Irving    Sep-43  C6N1-S Myrt      Sep-44       Night Fighter   Navy
C6N1-S Myrt      Sep-44  C6N1-S Myrt      Sep-44       Night Fighter   Navy

D1A Susie        Jan-39  D3A Val          Jan-39       Dive Bomber     Navy
D3A Val          Jan-39  D4Y Judy         Nov-43       Dive Bomber     Navy
D4Y Judy         Nov-43  D4Y Judy         Nov-43       Dive Bomber     Navy

B4Y Jean         Jan-39  B5N Kate         Jan-39       Torpedo Bomber  Navy
B5N Kate         Jan-39  B6N Jill         Dec-43       Torpedo Bomber  Navy
B6N Jill         Dec-43  B7A Grace        Jun-44       Torpedo Bomber  Navy
B7A Grace        Jun-44  B7A Grace        Jun-44       Torpedo Bomber  Navy

G3M Nell         Jan-36  G4M1 Betty       Jun-41       Level Bomber    Navy
G4M1 Betty       Jun-41  G4M2 Betty       Jul-43       Level Bomber    Navy
G4M2 Betty       Jul-43  G4M2 Betty       Jul-43       Level Bomber    Navy
G4M2e Betty      Oct-44  G4M2e Betty      Oct-44       Level Bomber    Navy
P1Y Frances      Dec-43  P1Y Frances      Dec-43       Level Bomber    Navy

J1N1-R Irving    Oct-42  C6N Myrt         Mar-44       Recon           Navy
C5M Babs         Jan-39  J1N1-R Irving    Oct-42       Recon           Navy
C6N Myrt         Mar-44  C6N Myrt         Mar-44       Recon           Navy

H6K4 Mavis       Jan-41  H8K Emily        Jan-42       Patrol          Navy
H8K Emily        Jan-42  H8K Emily        Jan-42       Patrol          Navy

H6K2-L Mavis     Jan-41  H6K2 - L Mavis   Jan-41       Transport       Navy
L1N1 Thora       Jan-36  L1N1 Thora       Jan-36       Transport       Navy
L3Y Tina         Jan-36  L3Y Tina         Jan-36       Transport       Navy
L2D2 Tabby       Jan-41  L2D2 Tabby       Jan-41       Transport       Navy

E7K2 Alf         Jan-39  E7K2 Alf         Jan-39       Float           Navy
E8N Dave         Jan-38  E13A1 Jake       Oct-41       Float           Navy
F1M2 Pete        Jan-41  F1M2 Pete        Jan-41       Float           Navy
E13A1 Jake       Oct-41  E13A1 Jake       Oct-41       Float           Navy
E14Y1 Glen       Sep-41  E14Y1 Glen       Sep-41       Float           Navy

Ki-27 Nate       Jan-37  Ki-43-IIa Oscar  Jan-43       Fighter         Army
Ki-43-Ib Oscar   Dec-41  Ki-61 KA1c Tony  Aug-42       Fighter         Army
Ki-43-IIa Oscar  Jan-43  Ki-43-IIa Oscar  Jan-43       Fighter         Army
Ki-44 IIb Tojo   Aug-42  Ki-84-Ia Frank   Aug-44       Fighter         Army
Ki-46 III Dinah  Oct-44  Ki-102a Randy    Jul-44       Fighter         Army
Ki-61 KA1c Tony  Aug-42  Ki-100 Tony      Feb-45       Fighter         Army
Ki-84-Ia Frank   Aug-44  Ki-84-Ic Frank   Dec-44       Fighter         Army
Ki-84-Ic Frank   Dec-44  Ki-84-Ic Frank   Dec-44       Fighter         Army
Ki-100 Tony      Feb-45  Ki-100 Tony      Feb-45       Fighter         Army

Ki-45 KAIb Nick  Jan-43  Ki-102a Randy    Jul-44       Fighter Bomber  Army
Ki-102a Randy    Jul-44  Ki-102a Randy    Jul-44       Fighter Bomber  Army

Ki-45 KAIa Nick  Dec-42  Ki-45 KA1c Nick  Apr-44       Night Fighter   Army
Ki-45 KAIc Nick  Apr-44  Ki-45 KA1c Nick  Apr-44       Night Fighter   Army

Ki-30 Ann        Jan-39  Ki-51 Sonia      Jan-39       Dive Bomber     Army
Ki-32 Mary       Jan-39  Ki-48 Lily       Jan-40       Dive Bomber     Army
Ki-51 Sonia      Jan-39  Ki-51 Sonia      Jan-39       Dive Bomber     Army

Ki-21 Sally      Jan-38  Ki-67 Peggy      Oct-44       Level Bomber    Army
Ki-48 Lily       Jan-40  Ki-102a Randy    Jul-44       Level Bomber    Army
Ki-49 Helen      Dec-41  Ki-67 Peggy      Oct-44       Level Bomber    Army
Ki-67 Peggy      Oct-44  Ki-67 Peggy      Oct-44       Level Bomber    Army

Ki-36 Ida        Jan-39  Ki-36 Ida        Jan-39       Recon           Army
Ki-15 Babs       Jan-39  Ki-46 II Dinah   Jun-41       Recon           Army
Ki-46 II Dinah   Jun-41  Ki-46 III Dinah  Jan-43       Recon           Army
Ki-46 III Dinah  Jan-43  Ki-46 III Dinah  Jan-43       Recon           Army

Ki-57 II Topsy   Jan-41  Ki-57 II Topsy   Jan-41       Transport       Army
Ki-59 Theresa    Jan-41  Ki-54 Hickory    Jan-41       Transport       Army
MC-21 Sally      Jan-38  MC-21 Sally      Jan-38       Transport       Army
Ki-54 Hickory    Jan-41  Ki-54 Hickory    Jan-41       Transport       Army


Leo "Apollo11"

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/29/2007 6:26:21 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		OK nice list I have printed it off
M

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/30/2007 10:43:28 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

OK nice list I have printed it off
M


Glad that you like it... I made the list years ago...


Leo "Apollo11"

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Prior Preparation & Planning Prevents Pathetically Poor Performance!

A & B: WitW, WitE, WbtS, GGWaW, GGWaW2-AWD, HttR, CotA, BftB, CF
P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

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Post #: 18
RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/31/2007 3:26:53 PM   
Rybeck

 

Posts: 110
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From: Menlo Park, CA
Status: offline 		In CHS the Ki-61-IIKAIb becomes available in Jan 1944. The stats of this (improved Tony?) plane are much better than the original Tony especially the gun value of 16.

In fact, its stats seem almost comparable to the Frank which becomes available in May 1944. I guess it should be worthwhile to convert original Tonys to this improved version until Franks become available, even if it's only for about 4 months or so.

Also, in CHS both Tony and Tojo have the same gun value of 12. Tojo is 8mph faster, but Tony is 2 points better in both maneuverability and durability, and 1 hex extra range. Apart from the Tojo's great altitude/climb, is there any good reason to build large numbers of Tojos?

I've read that Tojo is a better fighter killer, and Tony is better with bombers, but it seems that's only for stock. Certainly, the CHS stats indicate (to me at least) that Tony is a better all-round plane?
 
 

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 8/31/2007 9:01:07 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
Status: offline 		Except for the fact that converting Tojos to Franks is an over night process and Tonys to Franks takes weeks/months. If all you are looking at is raw airplane data, then yes, Tony is better. Strategically the Tojo is. Build both, I do. But I build 5 times as many Tojos as Tonys.

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 9/2/2007 10:15:16 AM   
Rybeck

 

Posts: 110
Joined: 1/17/2005
From: Menlo Park, CA
Status: offline 		YH
I hear you on the Tojo/Tony and Frank. But what about the Ki-61-IIKAIb ? Is this worth building, even though it's available (in CHS) in Jan 1944, just 4 months before the Frank. The stats look good enough.

On a related note, since my knowledge of Japan's WWII aircraft is relatively sparse, could anyone direct me to some good links where I could read up on them, especially fighters?

Thanks.

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Post #: 21
RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 9/2/2007 12:32:47 PM   
VSWG


Posts: 3432
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From: Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rybeck

On a related note, since my knowledge of Japan's WWII aircraft is relatively sparse, could anyone direct me to some good links where I could read up on them, especially fighters?

Thanks.

You can find links to websites about WW2 here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1057910

For instance:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/index.html
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/otherres.htm

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Post #: 22
RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 9/2/2007 2:41:30 PM   
Yamato hugger

 

Posts: 5475
Joined: 10/5/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rybeck

YH
I hear you on the Tojo/Tony and Frank. But what about the Ki-61-IIKAIb ? Is this worth building, even though it's available (in CHS) in Jan 1944, just 4 months before the Frank. The stats look good enough.

On a related note, since my knowledge of Japan's WWII aircraft is relatively sparse, could anyone direct me to some good links where I could read up on them, especially fighters?

Thanks.


Cant really answer that. My CHS game furthest along is only Sep 42 (Im Japs). Havent looked that far out yet. Off hand I would build a few of them, but as I said, I havent really taken a good look at it yet. When I get into Apr-May 43 I will. We are playing 2 day turns and we started this game in May this year, so we have done 9 game months in about 3-3.5 real months. One reason I like 2 day turns.

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Post #: 23
RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 9/2/2007 5:41:06 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rybeck

YH
I hear you on the Tojo/Tony and Frank. But what about the Ki-61-IIKAIb ? Is this worth building, even though it's available (in CHS) in Jan 1944, just 4 months before the Frank. The stats look good enough.

On a related note, since my knowledge of Japan's WWII aircraft is relatively sparse, could anyone direct me to some good links where I could read up on them, especially fighters?

Thanks.


Cant really answer that. My CHS game furthest along is only Sep 42 (Im Japs). Havent looked that far out yet. Off hand I would build a few of them, but as I said, I havent really taken a good look at it yet. When I get into Apr-May 43 I will. We are playing 2 day turns and we started this game in May this year, so we have done 9 game months in about 3-3.5 real months. One reason I like 2 day turns.



But a good whine takes time.

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RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 9/2/2007 11:30:57 PM   
ctangus


Posts: 2153
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From: Boston, Mass.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rybeck

But what about the Ki-61-IIKAIb ? Is this worth building, even though it's available (in CHS) in Jan 1944, just 4 months before the Frank. The stats look good enough.



I haven't gotten late enough as Japan to play with them, but I am facing them in a game I'm playing right now. I'd say they're worth building (I plan to).

By the time you get them they are certainly out-classed by the better allied fighters. But they do perform noticably better than the Ki-61-Ib. Fighting against them I don't fear them, but I respect them. I certainly try to keep unescorted or lightly escorted raids away from them so they do have a deterrent value. They won't stop me if I really want to take out a base and concentrate my forces, but I can't do that everywhere on the map at once.

Also, they're the only plane around that time that uses Kawasaki engines. The Frank uses Adv. Nakajimas and there's a ton of planes that draw on that pool. I suspect my opponent is having trouble with his Adv. Nakajima pools right now - from mouseover recon I can tell that he's expanding a lot of those factories.

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Post #: 25
RE: Jack Tony Tojo - 9/10/2007 5:44:31 PM   
AdmFletcher

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 12/25/2004
Status: offline 		Thank you VSWG for your references.

RE:
You can find links to websites about WW2 here:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1057910

For instance:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/IJARG/index.html
http://www.j-aircraft.com/research/otherres.htm

Here are other detailed and free alternatives, courtesy of Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:World_War_II_aircraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:World_War_II_American_aircraft
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:World_War_II_Japanese_aircraft

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:World_War_II_Japanese_fighter_aircraft etc.

While most of the plane performance commentary in the above articles should be decent, some may not as impartial.

If the latter applies, check out the statistics of the plane itself (these should be consistent) and make comparisons. The more important statistics are speed, cruising speed, range, ceiling, and armament etc.

(in reply to VSWG)
Post #: 26
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