Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/5/2007 6:39:37 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		I see your point.
With the history of my country (Germany) I understand your concern even more.
Racism exploited by unresponsible political leaders is a very bad problem, and one of the true dangers to world peace (culture and civilisation not to mention).
Unfortunately, most societies, even those who claim to be "highly developed", are way to easy prepared (or mislead?) to accept racism. Tragic examples of the recent history are Germany, and, alas, USA (Little Rock in the Fifties/Sixties).
All concious people should always be prepared to recognise and fight racism in all its ugly forms.


< Message edited by Rainer -- 10/5/2007 6:42:20 PM >

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 91
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/6/2007 9:50:23 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rainer

I see your point.
With the history of my country (Germany) I understand your concern even more.
Racism exploited by unresponsible political leaders is a very bad problem, and one of the true dangers to world peace (culture and civilisation not to mention).
Unfortunately, most societies, even those who claim to be "highly developed", are way to easy prepared (or mislead?) to accept racism. Tragic examples of the recent history are Germany, and, alas, USA (Little Rock in the Fifties/Sixties).
All concious people should always be prepared to recognise and fight racism in all its ugly forms.


Hi Rainer,

Just so’s you know, I’m not pointing fingers. My mother was German, I was born in Wiesbaden, my father was from Georgia, I grew up in the South; mother’s father wore feldgrau, father’s grandfather wore butternut gray, and I married a Russian. Given my glass house, I would look a real prize fool, if I threw any stones.

No; my only point was that certain self-absorbed, self-important, pseudo-cultured media and political types use the term ‘racism’ very loosely and use it as a social and political weapon to disparage anything they are uncomfortable with. Using the term this way cheapens it, and marginalizes the very real evil of true racism.

I just wanted to explain why cretins like this Burns fellow annoy me so.

(in reply to Rainer)
Post #: 92
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/6/2007 10:17:28 PM   
Rainer

 

Posts: 1210
Joined: 11/21/2000
From: Neuching, Bavaria, Germany
Status: offline 		I understand, and I'm with you (except Burns, can't comment because never saw anything from him).
And by the way, I also was born in 1947 (like you?), although on the other side of the fence, in Halle/Saale. My parents left what itself called a "German Democratic Republic" to seek and find their (and my) fortune in Cologne in 1958. Saw a bit of the world since then, including three years (1985-88) in Mountain View, CA, later Seattle, WA, even later The Netherlands and other places. Now I live with my wife in Upper Bavaria, near Munich.
Found narrow minded people everywhere, as well as people I am very proud of to be associated with.
Lets keep it up.
Cheers
Rainer

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 93
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 6:08:30 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE
No; my only point was that certain self-absorbed, self-important, pseudo-cultured media and political types use the term ‘racism’ very loosely and use it as a social and political weapon to disparage anything they are uncomfortable with. Using the term this way cheapens it, and marginalizes the very real evil of true racism.


Amen.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 94
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 8:25:19 AM   
33Vyper


Posts: 542
Joined: 10/20/2004
From: New Westminster BC
Status: offline 		Okay I watched the whole thing....did not like it.

It was almost boring.

I much prefered the series he did on the Civil War

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 95
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 1:23:24 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

Okay I watched the whole thing....did not like it. It was almost boring. I much prefered the series he did on the Civil War



I'm sure both Burns and PBS will be heartbroken that you didn't approve of their efforts. But the reality is that the series really wasn't aimed at you or me..., we've studied the subject matter much more thoroughly than the "target audience". Which was your sister, the guy across the street, your co-worker, and all those other folks you've tried to share your knowledge and enthusiasm with, and have greeted you with a blank stare at best, or written you off as a "closet Nazi nut" at worst. Had it been technical enough to suit us, they would have been lost in the first hour.

(in reply to 33Vyper)
Post #: 96
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 2:19:55 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

...I much prefered the series he did on the Civil War


I was in Bosnia when Burns' "Civil War" first aired, but was able to catch a random episode or two when I returned state side.

I assumed "The War" was going to be like Burns "other" War, but that didn't happen; live interviews w/real vets didn't seem as dramatic as letters from the 1800s. Perhaps it was because the CW letters were read by actors and the vets weren't exactly Tom Hanks, who BTW did some narration for a home front segment.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to 33Vyper)
Post #: 97
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 2:41:38 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: 33Vyper

Okay I watched the whole thing....did not like it. It was almost boring. I much prefered the series he did on the Civil War



I'm sure both Burns and PBS will be heartbroken that you didn't approve of their efforts. But the reality is that the series really wasn't aimed at you or me..., we've studied the subject matter much more thoroughly than the "target audience". Which was your sister, the guy across the street, your co-worker, and all those other folks you've tried to share your knowledge and enthusiasm with, and have greeted you with a blank stare at best, or written you off as a "closet Nazi nut" at worst. Had it been technical enough to suit us, they would have been lost in the first hour.



Of course you are both correct, and even with pre-airing disclaimers, there are still the less educated or younger folks who will still read the show as a strict history lesson and see nothing but the national paranoia and bigotry, rather than a nation coming together to fight two seperate major wars at the same time,(if one may consider the war in the Pacific seperate from the war in Europe.)

I value my Ken Burns' "Baseball" and his "Civil War", but selfishly, I was hoping for so much more from this program.
I was raised (and surrounded) by the WWII vets from every front within my immediate family, and treasure the tales they left behind, and am forced to compare the shows tales with those of my family,(finding much lacking.)

_____________________________




(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 98
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 4:11:30 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		Not sure if it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but Burns has said that he was inspired to do this series after finding a large chunk of American youth (a majority?) thought that the US and the Germans fought on the same side against the Russians

EDIT: Presumably this is his target audience.

< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 10/7/2007 4:15:04 PM >

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 99
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 5:59:54 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Not sure if it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but Burns has said that he was inspired to do this series after finding a large chunk of American youth (a majority?) thought that the US and the Germans fought on the same side against the Russians

EDIT: Presumably this is his target audience.

Wait, ...You mean - George Washington didn't cross the Delaware to defeat the Mongols at the Battle of Hastings in 1905?

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 100
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 6:53:04 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Not sure if it was mentioned earlier in this thread, but Burns has said that he was inspired to do this series after finding a large chunk of American youth (a majority?) thought that the US and the Germans fought on the same side against the Russians ...


They must have got that idea from George C. Scott; that's what happens when you get your (hypothetical) history from Hollywood, i.e., Patton.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 101
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 9:00:00 PM   
TOMLABEL


Posts: 5116
Joined: 1/27/2006
From: Alabama - ROLL TIDE!!!!!
Status: offline 		No, B, that's incorrect. I just heard on the news this morning that most high school students when asked 'Who was the president during World War II', responded with either George Washington or Richard Nixon.

There is definitely a lack of history (or accurate history) being taught in the schools today and movies and shows (like some parts of Burn's show) are taken by today's youth as absolute fact, sorry to say.

TOMLABEL

< Message edited by TOMLABEL -- 10/7/2007 9:37:22 PM >

_____________________________


Art by the Rogue-USMC

WITP Admiral's Edition: Ship & Sub Art/Base Unit Art/Map Icon Art

"If destruction be our lot - it will come from within"...Abraham Lincoln

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 102
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/7/2007 9:14:41 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		From what I hear they are too busy with political indoctrination to actually teach.

(in reply to TOMLABEL)
Post #: 103
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/8/2007 5:38:30 AM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		Dad told me when they took German prisoners, the Germans insisted they join the Americans in attacking the "real enemy", the Russians", and were genuinely surprised the Americans would not do this. This idea was not a "fiction" of Hollywood, nor Patton.
LTC Glover Johns was one of the film's technical directors, and a fellow officer of Dad's unit.

Sadly, a recent poll has shown American high school students are NOT being taught history as the above poster sez, and in fact 10% of the students could not even point out the United States on a world map.
I pay taxes and think it is time to open a can of "whupass" on school boards for the political dis-information being taught in the schools.

_____________________________




(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 104
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/8/2007 8:02:28 AM   
Snowman999

 

Posts: 90
Joined: 4/11/2007
Status: offline

quote:

Sadly, a recent poll has shown American high school students are NOT being taught history as the above poster sez, and in fact 10% of the students could not even point out the United States on a world map.
I pay taxes and think it is time to open a can of "whupass" on school boards for the political dis-information being taught in the schools.


It's not the school boards' fault, it's primarily the federalization of education that's taken place since the 1970s, with a vast acceleration under the current administration. If you want history taught as it used to be tell your congressperson and senators to vote to purge the No Child Left Behind Act from the US Code. Nothing has had more effect to return curricula to the 3-Rs at the expense of science, civics, and history than this stupid piece of punitive legislation.

What gets tested gets taught, and history is not on standardized tests required to keep federal dollars. (While you're at it find out from your school board how many instructional days are used up by the various rounds of tests now; you might be stunned.) The penalties imposed under No Child for not making "adequate yearly progress" are draconian, the bar is raised every year, special education students are given the same test as non-special ed. students, and the stated goal of the law is to make each and every one of the millions of students in the USA reach grade level in reading, writing, and math. This state of nirvana has never existed, will never exist, and can't ever exist in the statistical universe the rest of us--but not Congress--live in.

I'm currently in a paralegal certification program with lots of 18-20-somethings who have never read the Constitution, have no idea what the branches of government do, don't know their rights under the BOR, and have never heard the story of the nation's founding. It's tragic, but more so the fact that they can all vote, and most do.

Steve

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 105
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/8/2007 10:36:46 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Snowman999

It's not the school boards' fault, it's primarily the federalization of education that's taken place since the 1970s, with a vast acceleration under the current administration. If you want history taught as it used to be tell your congressperson and senators to vote to purge the No Child Left Behind Act from the US Code. Nothing has had more effect to return curricula to the 3-Rs at the expense of science, civics, and history than this stupid piece of punitive legislation.

What gets tested gets taught, and history is not on standardized tests required to keep federal dollars. (While you're at it find out from your school board how many instructional days are used up by the various rounds of tests now; you might be stunned.) The penalties imposed under No Child for not making "adequate yearly progress" are draconian, the bar is raised every year, special education students are given the same test as non-special ed. students, and the stated goal of the law is to make each and every one of the millions of students in the USA reach grade level in reading, writing, and math. This state of nirvana has never existed, will never exist, and can't ever exist in the statistical universe the rest of us--but not Congress--live in.


No Child Left Behind is the ultimate, ubsurd conclusion to the idea that education can be one size fits all. The truth is that different kids have different educational needs and different ways of learning. Educational experiments that found how each kid learned, and then separated the kids based on that and taught them the way they learned was much better than the mass production form of education that has been tried in the US for the last few decades.

From what I've heard, most teachers today just teach what's on the standardized tests the kids have to take. There is no time for anything else, so all the other subjects are suffering. I think it's a terrible mistake. The most vital thing I learned growing up was how to think things through and think for myself. I didn't learn it in school though. Those were my parent's values.

quote:


I'm currently in a paralegal certification program with lots of 18-20-somethings who have never read the Constitution, have no idea what the branches of government do, don't know their rights under the BOR, and have never heard the story of the nation's founding. It's tragic, but more so the fact that they can all vote, and most do.

Steve


My SO is a practicing attorney and she's constantly baffled at the massive ignorance she runs into. Sometimes from attorneys who have been practicing longer than she has. She also taught legal research and writing in a paralegal program for several years.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to Snowman999)
Post #: 106
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/8/2007 3:19:13 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Dad told me when they took German prisoners, the Germans insisted they join the Americans in attacking the "real enemy", the Russians", and were genuinely surprised the Americans would not do this. This idea was not a "fiction" of Hollywood, nor Patton.
LTC Glover Johns was one of the film's technical directors, and a fellow officer of Dad's unit ...


That may well be true, but rtrapasso posted that Burns claimed US students really thought that US and German troops actually did fight the Russians in WW II. And though the real Patton may have wanted to go along w/this "alliance," he suddenly died, giving rise to the rumor that he was killed by Stalinist conspiracey; this rumor -- if it is a rumor -- persists even today.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 107
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/8/2007 9:16:27 PM   
33Vyper


Posts: 542
Joined: 10/20/2004
From: New Westminster BC
Status: offline 		I agree

I think my problem with it was I had "expectations" based on his previous work.


(in reply to m10bob)
Post #: 108
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/8/2007 10:19:47 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

Dad told me when they took German prisoners, the Germans insisted they join the Americans in attacking the "real enemy", the Russians", and were genuinely surprised the Americans would not do this. This idea was not a "fiction" of Hollywood, nor Patton.
LTC Glover Johns was one of the film's technical directors, and a fellow officer of Dad's unit ...


That may well be true, but rtrapasso posted that Burns claimed US students really thought that US and German troops actually did fight the Russians in WW II. And though the real Patton may have wanted to go along w/this "alliance," he suddenly died, giving rise to the rumor that he was killed by Stalinist conspiracey; this rumor -- if it is a rumor -- persists even today.


It is probably true. Given the US educational system and its political imperatives, I am not at all surprised.

It is up to us to keep the flame of knowledge burning and try to deflect and inform the simplistic mass media view of historical imperatives.

We (those of us who wish and strive to Learn) are an especially important voice. Our collective knowledge and experience is as important, and relevant, as any PHd authored book. Our minds contain an appreciation of what was and, thus, what might be. Let us not forget our unique knowledge and experience when we confront simplistic, politically correct, cretins.

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 109
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/8/2007 10:43:40 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		It's important to realize that the education problems we are talking about long pre-dated No Child Left Behind. NCLB is an ineffective way of dealing with them (and would cause problems in its own right as noted), but it didn't cause them.

Did anyone see the video put out by a news anchor in the Pacific Northwest early this year/late last year? The purpose was to inform and alarm parents in the school district about the math textbook the school was adopting. For example, in the chapters on multiplication and division the great majority of the pages were spent on ... how to use a calculator! Nothing to do with NCLB. Cancer in its own right.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 110
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/8/2007 11:02:51 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Speaking of the U.S. Constitution and education...there's no mention of education in the Constitution.  The federal government shouldn't be involved just like it shouldn't be involved in a heck of alot of other endeavors.  Education should be a local - or, gasp, private - matter.  Imagine if schooling were left to local citizens.  They could then choose their own curriculums, whether they wanted prayer and religious instruction or not, etc.  Would there be a wide range of quality in schooling - yes.  You'd have great schools and bad schools, just like you do now.  Only now they are mostly bad and both educators and citizens are fed up with government controlling education and messing it up badly. 

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 111
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/10/2007 10:39:56 PM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's important to realize that the education problems we are talking about long pre-dated No Child Left Behind. NCLB is an ineffective way of dealing with them (and would cause problems in its own right as noted), but it didn't cause them.

Did anyone see the video put out by a news anchor in the Pacific Northwest early this year/late last year? The purpose was to inform and alarm parents in the school district about the math textbook the school was adopting. For example, in the chapters on multiplication and division the great majority of the pages were spent on ... how to use a calculator! Nothing to do with NCLB. Cancer in its own right.


I live near Portland, but I hadn't heard about that. IMO, everyone should have to learn to do math without a calculator. It's not sadism on my part. It's about how many people learn. If you have to work your brain to work it out the hard way, you are more likely to learn the core concepts you need to know. If a machine is doing the grinding the crank, you are less likely to learn what you are actually doing.

Bill

_____________________________

WitP AE - Test team lead, programmer

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 112
RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 - 10/10/2007 11:47:19 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Took a little bit of searching, but here's the video in question. I was a little off (she's a meteorologist, not an anchor).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5673808177500212626&q=mathematics+%2B+school+%22textbook%22&total=15&start=10&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4

The title is Math Education: An Inconvenient Truth.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 10/11/2007 12:27:16 AM >

(in reply to wdolson)
Post #: 113
Page:   <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: OT- Ken Burns WW2 Page: <<   < prev  1 2 3 [4]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.641