The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification

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The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 9/28/2007 3:35:27 AM

Frozen Stiffer

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From: California, USA
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I'm asking this here before I raise a fuss, only because I'm not sure if the game misrepresented a run as 'EARNED' when it should have been 'UNEARNED' OR I may just not be familiar with the exact definition of an Unearned Run.

SCENARIO: Batter X reaches with a double due to an error by a fielder. Batter Y hits a double and drives in Batter X.

Is the run that Batter X scored an Earned or an Unearned Run? I was under impression that if a batter reaches base due to an error he is "tagged" as an error-generated runner. Should he score, it will not be an earned run, even if whatever play brings him home is not associated with another error.

The scenario above just happened to me in a game and the run was counted as an Earned Run. Again, please note that I am not arguing anything (yet). Before I take any such stance, I need to know if MY understanding of an Unearned Run is even accurate! If I'm way off, the entire matter is a moot point.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

Post #: 1

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 9/28/2007 4:10:46 AM

KG Erwin

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Its a game mechanism. The way I understand it, Batter X should be an unearned run, and this will be reflected AFTER the game is concluded, NOT during the game. The after-games for that day overall stats should reflect this.

For the GBG manager, this is a good thing. A run given up is a run given up, regardless of circumstances. This could affect how long to keep that guy on the mound. I suppose it works the same way for the AI routines. Think on this for a moment, and then it makes sense.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 9/28/2007 4:17:13 AM >

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)

Post #: 2

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 9/28/2007 9:20:25 AM

Frozen Stiffer

Posts: 1059
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From: California, USA
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Well, KG.

What you're saying is that that run should be an unearned run, if I read correctly. However, I recall where the update had the ERA updating after the game, not the ER/R field. I wasn't looking at the pitcher's ERA in this scenario, only his R and ER count. I know for a fact that I have seen the R field rise and not the ER in other situations where it is an Unearned Run. Why not this time?

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 3

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 9/29/2007 12:11:26 AM

KG Erwin

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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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Ok, perhaps I'm misunderstanding the rule myself. How about just calling it the official scorer's perogative?

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)

Post #: 4

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 9/29/2007 4:02:18 AM

Taz0713

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In order to answer the question of whether or not it is an earned run or not, I have to ask how many outs were there at the time the run scored.� If the run scored and there were less than two outs, per 10.16 of mlb rules, the run would have been considered as earned.

Rule 10.16(a) Comment: The following are examples of earned runs charged to a pitcher:
(1) Peter pitches and retires Abel and Baker, the first two batters of an inning. Charlie reaches first base on an error charged to a fielder. Daniel hits a home run. Edward hits a home run. Peter retires Frank to end the inning. Three runs have scored, but no earned runs are charged to Peter, because Charlie should have been the third out of the inning, as reconstructed without the error.
(2) Peter pitches and retires Abel. Baker hits a triple. While pitching to Charlie, Peter throws a wild pitch, allowing Baker to score. Peter retires Daniel and Edward. One run has scored, charged as an earned run to Peter, because the wild pitch contributes to an earned run.
In an inning in which a batter-runner reaches first base on a catcher�s interference, such batter-runner shall not count as an earned run should he subsequently score. The official scorer shall not assume, however, that such batter would have made an out absent the catcher�s interference (unlike, for example, situations in which a batter-runner reaches first base safely because of a fielder�s misplay of a ball for an error). Because such batter never had a chance to complete his time at bat, it is unknown how such batter would have fared absent the catcher�s interference. Compare the following examples:
(3) With two out, Abel reaches first on an error by the shortstop in misplaying a ground ball. Baker hits a home run. Charlie strikes out. Two runs have scored, but none is earned, because Abel�s at-bat should have been the third out of the inning, as reconstructed without the error.
(4) With two out, Abel reaches first on a catcher�s interference. Baker hits a home run. Charlie strikes out. Two runs have scored, but one (Baker�s) is earned, because the official scorer cannot assume that Abel would have made an out to end the inning, absent the catcher�s interference.

Here are some examples taken directly from the MLB.com rules.� This is why I ask how many outs there were at the time the run scores.

I hope this helps.

The more I think about this the examples above don't really address what you are asking. Let me try this:

Assume less than two outs, when batter x arrives on second due to the error. Then batter Y knocks him in with a clean single, since even with the error being commited there would still have been less than three outs when the run scores, hence the earned run.

< Message edited by Taz0713 -- 9/29/2007 4:08:31 AM >

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 5

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 9/29/2007 4:49:20 AM

KG Erwin

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Thanks for the input, Taz. So, the run scored because of a play initiated by the pitcher -- giving up the double to batter Y, which scored batter X. That's it. Earned run. It doesn't matter if batter X reached base due to a prior error.

Does that settle the issue for you, FS?

To clarify further, suppose batter Y got that double because of a fielding error by an OF. In that case, batter X's run would definitely be considered unearned.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 9/29/2007 4:55:52 AM >

(in reply to Taz0713)

Post #: 6

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/12/2007 6:21:08 AM

Challerain

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I don't think this is the case, but I am certainly no expert. Since the player never would have been on 2nd base without the error, it doesn't matter if there is a clean hit that knocks him in. Reading further in the rule posted above:

(b) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner who reaches first base
(1) on a hit or otherwise after his time at bat is prolonged by a muffed foul fly;
(2) because of interference or obstruction; or
(3) because of any fielding error.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 7

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/12/2007 5:53:10 PM

BleacherBum

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quote:

Batter X reaches with a double due to an error by a fielder. Batter Y hits a double and drives in Batter X.

I think you need to clarify the scenario. First, there cannot be a double "due to an error". If the batter reached base entirely due to an error, its not a double (its not even a hit). He could reach 3rd, on a double plus an error, but I doubt that's what you meant here.

It seems the batter reached 2nd base, which was either (a) on a 2-base error such as a misplayed fly ball, or (b) on a single plus a 1-base error. If its (a), then when he scores that's an unearned run. If (b), then its a judgement call by the scorekeeper - would he have scored from first base given the subsequent events?

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)

Post #: 8

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/12/2007 7:51:17 PM

Challerain

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Good point. I was assuming that it was a two base error putting him on second......

(in reply to BleacherBum)

Post #: 9

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/12/2007 10:16:26 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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Pardon the word choice then. I seem to have used "double" to represent the fact that he made it to 2nd base; which would be misleading since if he reached there due to an error, it isn't technically counted as a double. To simplify it, we'll just say that he reached 2nd base on an error; exactly what the error was shouldn't really matter (I don't think).

What you described above however, is how I understood it. If a base runner reached base because of an error, should he score later on (even on fair, non-error plays), it would be an unearned run since the runner wouldn't have even been on base had it not been for the original error.

Conversely, let's say there's a base runner who reached base safely. A hitter comes up to bat and there's an error in fielding the play, allowing the base runner to score. I would think how that too should not be an earned run, since the base runner (though he reached safely) came in to score due to an error.

It seems the rules Taz extracted prove me wrong, applying more emphasis on how many outs there are at the time of the play. I can understand the logic behind it, how any subsequent runs would not have happened had that 3rd out been logged. However, just because there's only 1 out, does not (to me, at least) negate the fact that the runner is on base because of an error. I'm not saying the game (Puresim or MLB) should be changed just because of my opinion, but I think any run scored due to an error should be unearned; period.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to BleacherBum)

Post #: 10

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/12/2007 10:16:49 PM

Frozen Stiffer

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From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Challerain

Good point. I was assuming that it was a two base error putting him on second......

It was.

_____________________________

"It ain't braggin' if you can do it."

-Hall of Fame pitcher Jerome 'Dizzy' Dean

(in reply to Challerain)

Post #: 11

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/12/2007 11:42:16 PM

Wrathchild

Posts: 817
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From: Reading, PA
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Wow. This game sounds really detailed! I wish I could play!!

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)

Post #: 12

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/13/2007 12:06:34 AM

KG Erwin

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Hmm -- surely someone in our community has served as an official scorer for a minor-league game?

Going back to FS' original post, Pure Sim counted the run in question as an earned run.

(in reply to Frozen Stiffer)

Post #: 13

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/13/2007 12:07:34 AM

KG Erwin

Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wrathchild

Wow. This game sounds really detailed! I wish I could play!!

Why don't you, then?

Edit: oops, I just noticed you were having tech problems. Don't worry -- we'll get it sorted out for you.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 10/13/2007 12:14:08 AM >

(in reply to Wrathchild)

Post #: 14

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/13/2007 12:09:53 AM

Wrathchild

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From: Reading, PA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

quote:

ORIGINAL: Wrathchild

Wow. This game sounds really detailed! I wish I could play!!

Why don't you, then?

Game won't run for some reason. I already posted for help and emailed support.

(in reply to KG Erwin)

Post #: 15

RE: The Unearned Run - Requesting Clarification - 10/14/2007 7:48:11 AM

donkuchi19

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Here is another problem. Please note that the first batter doubled. The next batter got on base with a two base throwing error. The runner scored. It showed as an earned run. It shouldn't since the run scored but would not have except for the error. The next two batter made outs. After that, the next batter got a hit and Owens (Batter on base due to an error) scored. This also went as an earned run even though he got on base due to an error. The next batter hit a two run homerum. Again, those two runs should have been unearned since there should have been three runs. Byrd was charged four earned runs even though all should have been unearned.