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RE: Artillery in 1.5

 
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RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/19/2007 8:49:22 PM   
FrankHunter

 

Posts: 2111
Joined: 3/26/2004
Status: offline 		Out of curiousity, was that with 1.2 B6?  or B5?

I ask because B6 has one level more randomness and a greater span to the results.



(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 31
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/19/2007 9:23:54 PM   
FrankHunter

 

Posts: 2111
Joined: 3/26/2004
Status: offline 		Some numbers,

3 artillery units cost 1 industrial point to fire regardless of whether that strength is anywhere from 2 to 7.

It costs 1 industrial point to purchase from 5 to 7 arms points (depending on nationality).

All the numbers below assume 3 artillery units firing with air support against 3 corps stacked in a hex.

3 * 3 strength artillery units against 0 trenches will produce an average of 15 hits.
3 * 3 strength artillery units against level 1 trenches will produce an average of 8 hits.
3 * 3 strength artillery units against level 2 trenches will produce an average of 6 hits.
3 * 3 strength artillery units against level 3 trenches will produce an average of 3 hits.
3 * 3 strength artillery units against level 4 trenches will produce an average of 3 hits.

3 * 7 strength artillery units against 0 trenches will produce an average of 30 hits.
3 * 7 strength artillery units against level 1 trenches will produce an average of 17 hits.
3 * 7 strength artillery units against level 2 trenches will produce an average of 15 hits.
3 * 7 strength artillery units against level 3 trenches will produce an average of 12 hits.
3 * 7 strength artillery units against level 4 trenches will produce an average of 10 hits.

To figure what the averages would be without air support just remember that air support roughly has the effect of nullifying one level of trenches.

And to figure what the averages would be against a single corps in a hex, halve the hit average.

Tech level certainly plays a big role but I think artillery does pass your test that on average it produce costs to your opponent slightly better than or equal to your own spending.


(in reply to FrankHunter)
Post #: 32
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/19/2007 9:55:43 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		Mmm, those numbers don't really match my experiences in game? Going by that even level 3 artillery without any spotting involved will reliably score a hit or two?

I tested with the patch, yup - but the provoker of the debate was my experience in pbem rather than a test (which was with b5).

If its been changed slightly then it looks to me then its likely been changed enough, it only takes a little nudge to have a drastic effect, at least over time (like, a year of shelling).

Game on.


< Message edited by EUBanana -- 10/19/2007 10:01:27 PM >

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(in reply to FrankHunter)
Post #: 33
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/19/2007 9:59:58 PM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		Out of interest what sort of effect does aircraft tech have on bombardments? As I know the book says that aircraft technology also increases the power of barrages if aircraft are spotting.

I've never bothered researching aircraft above 1 myself (so they can shoot down bad guys), I work on artillery instead - is this perhaps a bad move, I wonder...


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(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 34
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/19/2007 10:19:41 PM   
hjaco

 

Posts: 872
Joined: 3/23/2007
Status: offline 		I would like a clarification on this too with the Beta.

In 1.1 one level of air support roughly gave the same benefit as one level of researched artillery (at lower levels at least), while being cheaper and faster to research and giving added benefit of possibly gaining air superiority.

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 35
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/20/2007 1:19:20 AM   
FrankHunter

 

Posts: 2111
Joined: 3/26/2004
Status: offline 		Aircraft tech has no effect on artillery.  Aircraft tech is only for air to air combat so the higher tech you are the better chance you'll get recce points.

quote:

In 1.1 one level of air support roughly gave the same benefit as one level of researched artillery (at lower levels at least), while being cheaper and faster to research and giving added benefit of possibly gaining air superiority.


Yes

(in reply to hjaco)
Post #: 36
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/20/2007 4:19:01 AM   
EUBanana


Posts: 4552
Joined: 9/30/2003
From: Little England
Status: offline 		I just had a crack with the new patch, 3 x 3 artillery seems to do about 8 on average against a trench at 1.  Thats certainly high enough to cause attrition, with research it only gets better.

Looks to be about a happy medium to me. 


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(in reply to FrankHunter)
Post #: 37
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/21/2007 6:45:37 AM   
Joel Rauber

 

Posts: 195
Joined: 10/4/2000
From: Brookings, SD, USA
Status: offline 		Let me give EUBanana the benefit of the doubt, temporarily.

There are combinations of three or four ways you can increase artillery's effectivenes

1) Increase their lethality; what EUBanana seems to be advocating
2) Increase their ability to lower readiness on enemy troops
3) Increase their ability to destroy enemy trenches
4) Make it cheaper to buy barrages.

One can of course fiddle and tweak in different ways all four factors.

A question for EUBanana would be why ignore 2-4 in your discussions?

Personally I think the lethality is about right. I'm only playing against the AI, but I see some 4-8 losses at times from artillery. Also, a lot of zeros, but I'm at Trench level 4 and the AI seems to not be concentrating his artillery fire.

I think I'd like to see barrages be a tad cheaper and maybe a slight improvement in the readiness lowering ability of barrages.

Thoughts?

_____________________________

Any relationship between what I say and reality is purely coincidental.

Joel Rauber

(in reply to EUBanana)
Post #: 38
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/22/2007 3:31:06 PM   
MikePalmer

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 7/20/2006
Status: offline 		I favor increasing the impact of arty on trenches and readiness. IMHO it should not be "cost effective" to trade barrages for strength points. Barrages should be more expensive than the cost of the average number of strength points that they will likely eliminate. That's the historical point: the Entente because of its resource base can afford to trade material for dead Germans. The reverse isn't true.

I thought that 1.5 was a better simulation of Great War arty than 1.6.

_____________________________

Mike Palmer

(in reply to Joel Rauber)
Post #: 39
RE: Artillery in 1.5 - 10/22/2007 4:52:46 PM   
Joel Rauber

 

Posts: 195
Joined: 10/4/2000
From: Brookings, SD, USA
Status: offline 		See beta6 first impressions thread.

I think that Franks explanation of the change in arty base is reasonably good, but folks there seem to mostly think trenches need to be cheaper with the slight increase of arty effectiveness present.

I've got mixed feelings and am undecided about my suggestion of making arty barrages cheaper. I'm beginning to think its not such a good idea.

_____________________________

Any relationship between what I say and reality is purely coincidental.

Joel Rauber

(in reply to MikePalmer)
Post #: 40
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