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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> After Action Reports >> Which base to target??

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Which base to target?? - 1/31/2008 2:04:11 PM

ny59giants

Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
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I agree with Ambonia or retaking Timor. Lae is not a good option as it doesn't have any strategic significances. It Ambonia is taken it threatens Oil and Resource Centers. Thus, he has to react in some way while Lae or anything in that area is the loss of a base but no Oil or Resources are threatened.

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(in reply to Bogo Mil)

Post #: 1021

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 1/31/2008 2:07:23 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

Bogo, don't worry to argue.
This AAR is intended to be an open place where people can discuss the possible strategies and i'm glad that you all suggest your own ideas!

Lae is surely another interesting strategy.
I think that, under certain circumstances, both vectors (Ambonia and Lae) can be followed, always keeping in mind that the main vector is the CENTPAC one, so everything else is usefull only to drag his units from the main target.
I really think he won't defend Rabaul at this stage...he didn't even bother to build any base near Rabaul (not even Admiralty island)...so another theatre is open to our will...let's say that we'll decide as soon as Ponape will fall...then we'll see what to do!

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(in reply to Bogo Mil)

Post #: 1022

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 1/31/2008 2:51:21 PM

Bogo Mil

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline

I think you need a diversion, which lasts for a long time. Once he realizes your CENTPAC-only strategy, you might face huge problems. He does not have to defend many bases there, he knows almost exactly which bases you will attack in which order.

A diversion in the DEI will probably not last for long - at least if it is the small scale operation you are planning. He has to supress the place immediately - ok. But then he has finished Manila, he can take it back with a short campaign. And then the diversion is over, he can throw everything in the CENTPAC-vector.

In the real war the Allies used two verctors. They did this because it was a good idea to do so. If you allow him to use all his engineers, AAA, CD etc. to defend a single, narrow vector, you make his defence a lot easier. I think in the long run it is much better to use two vectors, too.

A large scale operation to open a real second front in the DEI would be an option, but a difficult one. Bettys from northern New Guinea will threaten all the way from Cocktown to Timor, so everything from supply convoys to returning cripples must go the long way around Australia or you have to cover them with carriers. Threatening his resource production sounds nice, but it is much easier to threaten his resource transport, imho.

That's why I would go for Lae. It opens the door for the New-Guinea-vector. CENTPAC can remain your top priority. But if he uses everything there and advancing becomes extremely difficult for you, you have the option to switch your priority, use the open door and have a walk in the park there. So he has to defend New Guinea, which means less defenses in CENTPAC.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1023

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 1/31/2008 3:45:33 PM

Mistmatz

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline

GH is still on the defence in this game. A diversion - even a short one - helps to bridge the gap until he can go to offensive in seriousness. An operation on Lae will most likely not draw any attention simply because it doesn't threat anything important. However taking it wont hurt...

Quite the opposite a diversion in Amboina.

Of course Amboina can and will be taken back quickly but after that all the southern DEI bases will be garrissoned by the japanese in order to avoid more likewise nuisances. Those forces are then no longer available for the pacific area, taking some pressure from the defenders there.

(in reply to Bogo Mil)

Post #: 1024

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/1/2008 3:35:31 AM

Jim D Burns

Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline

I disagree with any kind of diversionary action at this stage. G.H. simply doesn�t have the strength to throw away on a diversion and if Japan even brings half of what he has in India back to the Pacific, the Marshall Island�s will be in serious trouble very soon.

I think the Lae idea was a good one in theory but wrong headed in the suggested execution. Don�t launch it as a diversion. Instead launch it as the start of a drive up the New Guinea coast to help support the Marshall Islands.

It�ll be far easier to fight along New Guinea in 1942 than it will be to take anything else once Japanese strength returns to the theatre. Also the further up the coast he can get, the stronger and more permanent his Marshall Island�s position becomes.

Eventually a New Guinea drive will become more of a threat than the Marshall�s and will draw most of the Japanese attention. That is why it is critical not to launch it as a diversion and give him time to react to the threat. When you go in you need to go in force so you can exploit your gains before Japan can build up a good defense to your move.

So prepare by building up your forces at Noumea and then bring them all in and dump them in Lae all at once. Then invade and paradrop your way up the coast as fast as possible using air transports to fly in large reserve formations from Lae to consolidate your gains.

But I stress, this needs to go off very fast if it has any hope of success against available Japanese power in 1942.

I�d keep him focused on the Marshall�s for now and make him think everywhere else is a forgotten backwater. Then I�d pounce with everything available to send that isn�t defending the Marshall�s or Hawaii around September or October.

Jim

< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 2/1/2008 3:44:55 AM >

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Post #: 1025

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/1/2008 9:26:12 AM

Bogo Mil

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline

Garrisions don't help agains such suicide invasions. I think, Trollelite knows that. He would need most of his army and there would still be bases left which could be captured by a brigade. Thus he won't garrision, retake Ambroina and wait if we bring more men for his POW-camps in the DEI.

I think we have some interesting days ahead - in the far west. Very much depends on the development in India, now. Celebrating too early is a bad thing, but he bombed resources several times, and his troops didn't enter the city yet. If there is no attack within the next week or so, our defense there was a huge success - he has probably given up and only wants to suppress the base contain its garrision.

This would be great news for the Indians, but it would free a lot of troops for other theatres, too. If that happens, we soon have to face at least 1/3 of his India army group somewhere else. In other words: We will be in a very defensive position in the Pacific soon. Retaking Ambroina is just a sidestep off the way between India and the Pacific, so we would pay a brigade for less than a week delay. I think that's too expensive.

But should he continue his attack against Karachi, he will not be in a position to launch any serious offensive action. In that scenario, we have all the time to prepare future offensives. Diverting his defensive ressources (CD, AAA, construction teams etc) can be part of these preparations. Drawing most defenses to CENTPAC as preparation for a huge offensive in New Guinea is another option.

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 1026

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/2/2008 9:57:57 AM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
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From: italy
Status: offline

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/16/42

Hi guys. I think he'll continue the attack on Karachi. He has already brought 21 units beyond the river and at least 16 more are coming. It's just a matter of time. He has sent this turn a mortar unit to shock attack at Karachi...to burn my supplies probably...Karachi has now 285,000...so still enough, despite they're burning faster than what i thought.
I'm sending some subs to lay mines from Aden...hope to get some more luck with mines!

At Manila, situation is more or less stable...13,000 supplies...but the aerial bombardments keep on going on.

In China i cannot do much more to stop his new vector that is going north of Changsha...the only thing i can do is try to exploit his thiny supply lines and let him pass by...hoping to cut the whole vector once it's penetrated deep inside my perimeter...

In the Marshalls the situation is stable.
All my newly conquered bases (Maloleap,Wotje,Jaluit, Eniwetok and Majuro) have at least 80,000 supplies and 80,000 fuel and more is coming from PH and SF. Forts are growing fast and my bombers are getting a good experience in the routine bombings of Kwalajein.
Ponape is being hit hard every day by my B-17s from Eniwetok. In 4 days we'll start using also the B-25s. 100 B.25s and more 80 B-26s are waiting at Maloealp to be transfered to Eniwetok to start the reducing of Ponape.
At the same time ships and materials are massing at Eniwetok, along with the units assigned to the task.
My 4 operative CVs are re-grouping at PH, along with 8 BBs and half of the pacific surface fleet. They'll all be moved to the Marshalls the next week in order to support the Ponape invasion.

For what concerns Ambonia, Lae etc.... i haven't decided yet. I really think it's too early to decide what to do. As Bogo said it all depends on how long Manila and Karachi will hold their ground. Every day gained is important here... However the building process at Darwin continues. Now in this base there are 100,000 supplies, 1600 AVs, 50,000 fuel and 200 aviation support,which is enough to sustain a little bombing campaign....

Still no sign of his KB.....

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Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
CA Mogami
CA Nachi
CA Haguro
CA Chikuma

Allied ground losses:
1973 casualties reported
Guns lost 31

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 14

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Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 34
Ki-21-II Sally x 134
Ki-46-II Dinah x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 7 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 31

This is quite strange indeed....

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Day Air attack on Changsha , at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 102
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 12
Ki-30 Ann x 40
Ki-32 Mary x 52
Ki-48-I Lily x 130

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 1 damaged
Ki-30 Ann: 4 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 2 damaged

Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported

Airbase hits 12
Airbase supply hits 11
Runway hits 144

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Day Air attack on Changsha , at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 24
G4M1 Betty x 38
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 12
Ki-21-II Sally x 26
Ki-49 Helen x 110
Ki-15 Babs x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Allied ground losses:
35 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 124

Have you seen how many damned bombers in China!!??!?!?!?!?!

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Day Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 133
Ki-48-I Lily x 30

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 15 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged

Allied ground losses:
204 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 4

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 80

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Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 11
B-17E Fortress x 77
F-4 Lightning x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 5 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
79 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 19

Aircraft Attacking:
all B-17E Fortress bombing at 15000 feet

Tomorrow we'll try to bomb the single units present at Ponape...just to see what he really has there...i bet a SNFL units and a base force...

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Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 32
Ki-49 Helen x 121
Ki-46-II Dinah x 2

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses

Allied ground losses:
91 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 6
Runway hits 70

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Ground combat at Karachi

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 560 troops, 20 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Defending force 130054 troops, 1073 guns, 716 vehicles, Assault Value = 2666

Japanese max assault: 0 - adjusted assault: 0

Allied max defense: 2551 - adjusted defense: 15269

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)

Japanese ground losses:
73 casualties reported
Guns lost 10

Allied ground losses:
20 casualties reported

The supply-burning attack....

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Ground combat at Changsha

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 151969 troops, 885 guns, 2 vehicles, Assault Value = 4597

Defending force 298631 troops, 1430 guns, 14 vehicles, Assault Value = 6504

Japanese ground losses:
40 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

We decided to bomb in order to get some extra experience and to see how many AVs he's bringing back...seems that at least 3000 AVs have been brought back in order to flank my positions in the north....

Attachment (1)

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[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to Bogo Mil)

Post #: 1027

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 6:34:21 AM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline

He shock attacked with 500 guys?

I guess thats called a "probing attack".

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1028

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 12:03:42 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/17/42

The situation in China is getting worse.
He simply has brought too many bombers and fighters there...In the south, near Canton he has brought in a mixed bde that has defeated a chinese division that was defending my left flank of Canton...now i have to do something cause my whole right flank of Changsha risks to fall down....it's a mess!!!
At Karachi he keeps on pounding the AF and the HI...but his units haven't entered in the city hex yet....
At Manila we managed to bring in 3500 supplies with a single AK from Darwin...

...some oxigen for my guys there!

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Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 30
Ki-21-II Sally x 110
Ki-49 Helen x 126
Ki-46-II Dinah x 12

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 4 damaged
Ki-49 Helen: 7 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 31

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Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 69
G4M1 Betty x 168

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 6 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 10 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 14

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Look at the numbers in China!!

Day Air attack on Nanchang , at 48,38

Japanese aircraft
Ki-48-I Lily x 131

No Japanese losses

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 115

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Day Air attack on Changsha , at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 126
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 48
Ki-30 Ann x 41
Ki-32 Mary x 53

Japanese aircraft losses
D3A2 Val: 6 damaged
Ki-32 Mary: 1 damaged

Allied ground losses:
21 casualties reported

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 162

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Day Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 119
Ki-48-I Lily x 29

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 1 destroyed, 5 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 6 damaged

Allied ground losses:
93 casualties reported
Guns lost 1
Vehicles lost 2

Airbase hits 5
Runway hits 76

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Day Air attack on Ponape Base Force, at 73,80

So at Ponape there's a base force and a Costal Gun unit....

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 7
B-17E Fortress x 33

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
70 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape Coastal Gun Regiment, at 73,80 ...mmm...gotta be carefull with these bastards!

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 14
B-17E Fortress x 24

Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
26 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 23rd Chinese Corps, at 50,39

Just to give you an idea of how many planes Japan has in China....

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 25

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
62 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

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Day Air attack on 4th New Chinese Guer Corps, at 49,39

Japanese aircraft
Ki-30 Ann x 27

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
34 casualties reported

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Day Air attack on 4th Chinese/C Corps, at 44,41

Japanese aircraft
D3A2 Val x 56
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 31

No Japanese losses

Allied ground losses:
14 casualties reported

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on 9th Prov Chinese/B Corps, at 50,39

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 38
Ki-27 Nate x 37

Japanese aircraft losses
A5M4 Claude: 2 damaged

Allied ground losses:
19 casualties reported

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/18/42

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Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
PBY Catalina: 1 destroyed

Japanese Ships
CA Furutaka
CA Aoba
CA Takao
CA Tone

Allied ground losses:
3443 casualties reported
Guns lost 47

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 3
Runway hits 47
Port hits 3
Port supply hits 3

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TF 1076 encounters mine field at Jaluit (82,88)

Allied Ships
MSW Mildura
MSW Bunbury
PC Tiger, Mine hits 1, on fire, heavy damage *sinks*.....damned sub laid mines...

PG Yarra

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ASW attack at 105,72

I'm trying to hunt those subs which are patrolling with Glenns my route between PH and Eniwetok...

Japanese Ships
SS I-9, hits 4

Allied Ships
DM Sicard
DM Pruitt
DM Preble
DM Tracy
DM Breese
DM Ramsay
DM Montgomery
DM Gamble

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ASW attack at 83,78

Japanese Ships
SS I-165

Allied Ships
DD Russell
DD Hammann
DD Anderson
DD Hughes
DD Sims
DD Warrington

No hits!!

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Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 9
Ki-21-II Sally x 65
Ki-46-II Dinah x 10

Allied aircraft
no flights

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
PBY Catalina: 1 destroyed

Airbase hits 6
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 22

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kweiyang , at 41,34

20 planes destroyed on the Ground....

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 65
G3M Nell x 26
G4M1 Betty x 50
Ki-21-II Sally x 26
Ki-49 Helen x 114

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Dakota I: 3 destroyed
SB-2c: 1 destroyed
B-17D Fortress: 1 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 4 destroyed
IL-4c: 1 destroyed

Allied ground losses:
41 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 23
Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 117

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 117
Ki-48-I Lily x 22

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 8 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 7 damaged

Allied ground losses:
117 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 41

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kwajalein , at 81,84

Allied aircraft
Beaufort I x 29
P-40B Tomahawk x 21
B-18A Bolo x 12
B-25C Mitchell x 48
B-26B Marauder x 56

Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 3 damaged
B-26B Marauder: 3 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
47 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Airbase hits 1
Runway hits 15

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 33
Ki-49 Helen x 125
Ki-46-II Dinah x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 4 damaged

Allied ground losses:
31 casualties reported

Airbase hits 12
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 42

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ASW attack at 83,78 *south of Wake Island*

Japanese Ships
SS I-165, hits 5

Allied Ships
DD Russell
DD Hammann
DD Anderson
DD Hughes
DD Sims
DD Warrington

no serious damage...

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(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 1029

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 12:12:45 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1030

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 12:20:11 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

The actual Karachi status

Attachment (1)

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1031

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 3:18:50 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

So guys, the situation in China is quite grimm, even if not yet desperate.
My hopes now rely on the resistance of Karachi. I'm really curious to know how my troops will handle the first jap assault...Japan however is moving quite slowly towards Karachi...it is still possible that he really doesn't have any real intent of taking the city...he could bring some 2000 AVs there and simply leave them there, while keeping on bombing the hell out of my units, and move back all those divisions to the pacific...It would be however a risky strategy for him...

His BBs have disappeared from India...only 4 of his CAs are running up and down from Bombay to Karachi...that could mean that he's already transfering his combined fleet to Pacific again...

In the Pacific i'm giving some rest to my 4Es at Eniwetok. In one week the 2Es will arrive in order to continue the reducing of Ponape's defences.
My 4 CVs will soon be moved to Eniwetok, along with 8 BBs and most of my CA/CLs.

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1032

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 3:39:11 PM

PzB74

Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline

He's going all out for Karachi ok - the question is whether he's trying to bait the RN into a trap by withholding the
KB and Combined Fleet until you think it's safe to take a shot at his bombardment TFs.

Sending the KB to the Central Pacific will completely flaw his plans as the RN is a match for any navy on the map.
You should not send more RN ships back, keep them at all costs and wait until you find a window and go head to head with
the invaders.

This is what it's all about until 1943:
1. Will Karachi hold and how much can and will you do to prevent it from falling (thinking in terms of sending US Fleets and troops)
2. How important is it for you and how much are you willing to do to avoid the looming auto victory.
3. Will China fall in 1942? Trollelite will most likely turn his troops into Soviet Manchuria if this happens.

All the gains in Central Pacific will be threatened or stalemated if Karachi falls - at least until mid to late 1943 depending on when you can defeat the KB.

China will be in poor shape no matter what you do after the fall of Burma. Supplies will dry up like water in the desert after 1-2 years of continued bombing.

As long as you ignore the possibility of auto victory you're pretty well of in the long run, but you will sorely miss the RN and RAF if Karachi falls, believe me. Winning a 2-1 victory by VJ Day in 08-45 could then become very difficult. Just take a look at all the wonderful ships, troops and ac that are scheduled to arrive in 44-45!!

If you wish to play your gentleman game against an opponent that throws in the kitchen sink and has all the advantages, the bigger the potential glory and chance of failure will be for you

_____________________________

"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1033

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 6:11:24 PM

Bogo Mil

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline

Ponape starts the game with 2 units - a stationary CD unit and a base force. If you see only one unit there, he already evacuated the base force.

About Karachi: I don't see anything in your house rules regarding barges. Is it legal for you to send barge convoys all the way from Aden to Karachi? These are hard to spot and will only be attacked by planes set to 100 feet.

Your supply storage falls so fast because it is so big. Each supply hit destroys 1% - that's almost 3000 tons now. Once you are below 20k, his bombing will be much less effective. You have the autosupply, if you can boost this by 1-2k per week from blockade runners, you will have enough forever.

(in reply to PzB74)

Post #: 1034

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 6:29:57 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

He might have moved the KB from India to be in ambush position near Truk/Ponape - as Ponape is the obvious next logical move.

(in reply to Bogo Mil)

Post #: 1035

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 7:09:03 PM

Fishbed

Posts: 1822
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From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
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Well my call would be to wait for KB to show up before any move in Ponape.
A diversion with the RN without putting it at risk (making him believe you're trying an all-out effort to ressuply Karachi) may be enough, who knows...

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 1036

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 7:49:34 PM

hades1001

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline

just for your infomation, the supplies in Karachi may last for less than 4-5months, based on my exp.

It might be consumed much quicker if he continue the small scale attack, bombardment and bombing. Let's see if trollelite is really interested in Karachi, if may take him another 3-4 months to accomplish this goal. And you got to do more actions in the Pacific.

But, I still insist that put all your assets this early in 1942 is quite dangerous.

_____________________________

As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 1037

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 8:37:02 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/19/42

Another suicide attack at Karachi...turn hasn't arrived yet, so i cannot say how much supply these attacks really burn. However my adjusted defences are at 20,000 AVs...not bad.
I'm pretty sure he's waiting for an ambush at Ponape. That would be interesting...Eniwetok is a wonderfull unsinkable carrier, full of planes and stuff...if the KB shows up it might be a dangerous place for it...

The Fishbed idea isn't bad imho. My British CVs are already grouped in Aden...let's see if i can give him some problems without risking my ships...anyway he has 200+ Betties/Nells at Ademabad...it's impossible to get close to Karachi at the moment.
Barges...i've already tried to use them...he has the oscars on Naval attack at 100 fts....just in case

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Roxas at 43,55

A single AK trying to force the blockade of Manila sinks...

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 26

No Japanese losses

Allied Ships
AK Liloa, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 27
G3M Nell x 67

G4M1 Betty x 168

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 1 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 5 damaged

Allied ground losses:
205 casualties reported
Guns lost 7

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 9
Runway hits 189

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Karachi

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 620 troops, 16 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1

Defending force 128718 troops, 1095 guns, 717 vehicles, Assault Value = 2668

Japanese max assault: 0 - adjusted assault: 0

Allied max defense: 2622 - adjusted defense: 20561

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)

Japanese ground losses:
108 casualties reported
Guns lost 9

Allied ground losses:
30 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to hades1001)

Post #: 1038

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 8:46:16 PM

Fishbed

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline

Actually General, who needs aircraft carriers for Ponape?
The place is 4 hex away from Eniwetok, your transports can nearly get there overnight, and now that we know there's no one on the ground on the Japanese side, you're not even sure you need a hell lot of troops for that matter.

Build up a small invasion TF, together with a lot of empty or supply-laden transports which may attenuate the shock if you were to get attacked, and go for it, while you CAP them with your brand new Lightnings. The Battlewagons don't even need to stay at Ponape, they can be back to Eniwetok the next day after a first bombardement run which will surely silence these guns at once. A swift move and pshhhht. He if wants to attack afterwards, if he CAN (because he'll have to be quick then...), well he's welcome. YOUR CVs are waiting in the shadow...

I mean, Ponape is so defenseless once the guns are silenced, you can even invade it with barges!!!

Not to mention the paratroopers you may have in hand right now...!

< Message edited by Fishbed -- 2/3/2008 8:48:45 PM >

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1039

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 8:55:59 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Actually General, who needs aircraft carriers for Ponape?
The place is 4 hex away from Eniwetok, your transports can nearly get there overnight, and now that we know there's no one on the ground on the Japanese side, you're not even sure you need a hell lot of troops for that matter.

Build up a small invasion TF, together with a lot of empty or supply-laden transports which may attenuate the shock if you were to get attacked, and go for it, while you CAP them with your brand new Lightnings. The Battlewagons don't even need to stay at Ponape, they can be back to Eniwetok the next day after a first bombardement run which will surely silence these guns at once. A swift move and pshhhht. He if wants to attack afterwards, if he CAN (because he'll have to be quick then...), well he's welcome. YOUR CVs are waiting in the shadow...

I mean, Ponape is so defenseless once the guns are silenced, you can even invade it with barges!!!

Not to mention the paratroopers you may have in hand right now...!

My CVs will stay at Eniwetok, under the reiforced umbrella of my Marines Wildcats. That's for sure. My BBs (for the moment) too.
The reason why i want to use a fast transport invasion fleet is because i know Truk is full of Betties and zeros...those beasts will surely run destruction among a normal transport fleet.
However if the KB shows up, it should come close to Ponape, and that means being in range of my 100 higly experienced B-17s, my 200 B-25s/B-26 and some more 200 between P-40s and Marines Wildcats all based at Ponape...i really think he's gonna risk a lot!

The Ponape invasion will be carried on by the 2nd marine raider Bn. (the paras aren't arrived yet) and by the 2nd USMC div...enough i think.
We just need some more days for softening its defences and then we'll go.
As soon as the base is taken, my Dakotas will bring in the base forces and some AA units...should go fine imho.

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 1040

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 9:06:27 PM

Fishbed

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline

Risking the whole 2nd Marine Div is something. Who's gonna be there, except for the guns and the base force? I think we're making a big fuss out of nothin'

I doubt he'll come to challenge you there - if he does, he's gonna feel the pain

Hope that keeping your CVs at Eniwetok, so close from the frontline, won't make them react if KB shows up... I'd hate that!

You're talking about fast transport - do you mean a whole force made of APDs?

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1041

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 11:11:43 PM

hades1001

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline

Does your HRs allowed land based IJN zero on board??

If it is allowed, I'm sure your 300 bombers will gain nothing but run a suicide mission

_____________________________

As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 1042

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/3/2008 11:57:39 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishbed

Risking the whole 2nd Marine Div is something. Who's gonna be there, except for the guns and the base force? I think we're making a big fuss out of nothin' I doubt he'll come to challenge you there - if he does, he's gonna feel the pain

Hope that keeping your CVs at Eniwetok, so close from the frontline, won't make them react if KB shows up... I'd hate that!

You're talking about fast transport - do you mean a whole force made of APDs?

Well, don't understimate a well defended atoll...with few forts even few guns and a base force can be a tricky target for a small invasion force!
However the 2nd USMC Div is also scheldued to defend Ponape, not only to conquer it. I wanna play it safe enough. Every base that i conquer must be well garrisoned.

For what concerns CVs...yes, they can react...but i'm positive that the Air force at Eniwetok plus the 4 CVs can be a nasty nut to crack also for the mighty KB...

and Hades...we've already seen near Karachi that even 260 Zeros on CAP cannot stop every single bomber in this Mod...and the 4Es are very difficult to stop...i also have 32 beauforts with torpedoes....i would not send my KB down there if i was trollelite

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to Fishbed)

Post #: 1043

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 12:10:33 AM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Does your HRs allowed land based IJN zero on board??

If it is allowed, I'm sure your 300 bombers will gain nothing but run a suicide mission

Look at here...this happened back in Feb 42, near Karachi....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 19,5

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 232

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 2
Martin 139 x 5
Hudson I x 3
P-40B Tomahawk x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 14 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 2 destroyed
Martin 139: 5 destroyed
Hudson I: 3 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 8 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 19,5

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 232

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb x 2
Blenheim I x 8
Blenheim IV x 6
Martin 139 x 2
A-20B Boston x 6
B-25C Mitchell x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 16 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb: 2 destroyed
Blenheim I: 8 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 6 destroyed
Martin 139: 2 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 6 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 20,6

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 40

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
DD Ayanami

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Blenheim I bombing at 11000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 19,5

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 184

Allied aircraft
Swordfish x 12
Wirraway x 3
Hurricane IIb x 32
Blenheim I x 14
Blenheim IV x 42
Hudson I x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 12
P-40B Tomahawk x 13
P-40E Warhawk x 15
A-20B Boston x 23
B-25C Mitchell x 14
B-17E Fortress x 6
P-43A Lancer x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 38 destroyed, 38 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
Wirraway: 3 destroyed
Hurricane IIb: 26 destroyed
Blenheim I: 6 destroyed, 2 damaged
Blenheim IV: 8 destroyed, 24 damaged
Hudson I: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
P-39D Airacobra: 11 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 13 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 13 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 6 destroyed, 10 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed, 4 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 6 damaged
P-43A Lancer: 4 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Ise
CVE Taiyo, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CVE Hosho, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Ryujo

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to hades1001)

Post #: 1044

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 12:12:19 AM

hades1001

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline

This mod works well simulating the small amount of aircrafts may break through the cap by a term called "leakage"

however, there is no way that a horde of bombers can break through the cap without much escorts.

small number may made 1 or 2 hits with luck, there is no major damage can be achieved.

another issue is, what's the range did set all your bombers?

my KB will stay at least 5 hex away to avoid the torpedo bombers. Your B25 and 4E doesn't have much chance to make a coordinated stirke.
They will be demolished one wave after another. AND, withing the safe distance the zeros on carriers may even can sweep your base, kill most of your green hand wildcats and whatever other caps. Thus I don't think it is wise to keep your cvs in Eniwetok.

This is classical technic in STOCK GAME. But we still need more examples to prove this theory in Scen 160. Just remind you, hope you good luck.

PS.
I'm now deploying the first turn against trollelite.

_____________________________

As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1045

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 12:15:06 AM

hades1001

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner

quote:

ORIGINAL: hades1001

Does your HRs allowed land based IJN zero on board??

If it is allowed, I'm sure your 300 bombers will gain nothing but run a suicide mission

Look at here...this happened back in Feb 42, near Karachi....
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 19,5

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 232

Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 2
Martin 139 x 5
Hudson I x 3
P-40B Tomahawk x 8

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 14 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 2 destroyed
Martin 139: 5 destroyed
Hudson I: 3 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 8 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 19,5

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 232

Allied aircraft
Hurricane IIb x 2
Blenheim I x 8
Blenheim IV x 6
Martin 139 x 2
A-20B Boston x 6
B-25C Mitchell x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 16 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Hurricane IIb: 2 destroyed
Blenheim I: 8 destroyed
Blenheim IV: 6 destroyed
Martin 139: 2 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 6 destroyed
B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 20,6

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 40

Allied aircraft
Blenheim I x 3

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Blenheim I: 2 destroyed

Japanese Ships
DD Ayanami

Aircraft Attacking:
1 x Blenheim I bombing at 11000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 19,5

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 184

Allied aircraft
Swordfish x 12
Wirraway x 3
Hurricane IIb x 32
Blenheim I x 14
Blenheim IV x 42
Hudson I x 3
P-39D Airacobra x 12
P-40B Tomahawk x 13
P-40E Warhawk x 15
A-20B Boston x 23
B-25C Mitchell x 14
B-17E Fortress x 6
P-43A Lancer x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 38 destroyed, 38 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Swordfish: 5 destroyed, 2 damaged
Wirraway: 3 destroyed
Hurricane IIb: 26 destroyed
Blenheim I: 6 destroyed, 2 damaged
Blenheim IV: 8 destroyed, 24 damaged
Hudson I: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged
P-39D Airacobra: 11 destroyed
P-40B Tomahawk: 13 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 13 destroyed
A-20B Boston: 6 destroyed, 10 damaged
B-25C Mitchell: 3 destroyed, 4 damaged
B-17E Fortress: 6 damaged
P-43A Lancer: 4 destroyed

Japanese Ships
BB Ise
CVE Taiyo, Bomb hits 6, on fire, heavy damage
CV Kaga, Bomb hits 2, on fire
CVE Hosho, Bomb hits 4, on fire, heavy damage
CVL Ryujo

Well, looks like secn 160 is totally new territory for me. Full of chanllenge, thanks for this report.

_____________________________

As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1046

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 12:35:50 AM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

At Eniwetok there will be an air HQ and 4 radars...so i guess coordination will be possible at some stages.
48 P-38s should be enough for the long range escort purpose.
P-40s and Wildcats will take care of the short range escort missions.
CVs ill be held close to Eniwetok...and a sweep mission over Eniwetok?? Would be a complete waste of pilots for him...i can easily move in more 200 fighters from Maloleap and Wotje...
Anyway, we'll see...i'm looking forward to this battle

_____________________________

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(in reply to hades1001)

Post #: 1047

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 2:46:46 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

China...the situation is terrible!
There are 11 units (probably brought in by sea) that are advancing flanking my positions at Canton! These movements will completely wreck my southern perimeter...i have to abbandon my positions thereand shrink my overall perimeter!
Now i'll be waiting untill the Nanchang army arrives at Changsha (still few turns), then i'll move back and will try to organize a bran new periemeter...Hankow and Syniang will be abbandoned and we'll retreat our central armies towards Ichang and then Chunking, while in the south we'll try to defend Changsha untill we can, but with a well open aye on the main threat: being cut off from Chungking!...sowe gotta be really carefull now...

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

[image]http://yfrog.com/2m70331348022314716641664j [/image]

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1048

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 3:01:15 PM

Mistmatz

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline

GH, can you elaborate on your reasoning to abandoning Sinyang, Hankow and potentially Wuchow?

I'd think that if you threaten those cities he cannot move much of his forces out to gather elsewhere and you wouldn't really shorten your perimeter in the north, just move it to a more behind location.
I agree that the whole southern railroad connected cities are under threat but if you move back now you will provide him with easy grabs and he has the ability to fortify those so it will be difficult taking them back when the time comes. For instance the city next to Kweilin (Liuchow?) is absolutely critical for the supply to the Hengchow/Changsha area. If you volutarily fall back to this position I believe you are more vulnerable than you would be defending at Wuchow. At least you can postpone any withdrawal until you're 100% certain he wants to outflank (meaning a huge force in the wood hex NE of Wuchow. Due to better infrastructure you would still have plenty of time to withdraw if neccessary.

There is of course also big risk at the crossing NE of Hengchow (NW of Changsha), but unless you loose Changsha I dont believe he can advance the road towards Kweiyang/Tsuyun and cut your forces into two.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)

Post #: 1049

RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 3:33:00 PM

Gen.Hoepner

Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

GH, can you elaborate on your reasoning to abandoning Sinyang, Hankow and potentially Wuchow?

I'd think that if you threaten those cities he cannot move much of his forces out to gather elsewhere and you wouldn't really shorten your perimeter in the north, just move it to a more behind location.
I agree that the whole southern railroad connected cities are under threat but if you move back now you will provide him with easy grabs and he has the ability to fortify those so it will be difficult taking them back when the time comes. For instance the city next to Kweilin (Liuchow?) is absolutely critical for the supply to the Hengchow/Changsha area. If you volutarily fall back to this position I believe you are more vulnerable than you would be defending at Wuchow. At least you can postpone any withdrawal until you're 100% certain he wants to outflank (meaning a huge force in the wood hex NE of Wuchow. Due to better infrastructure you would still have plenty of time to withdraw if neccessary.

There is of course also big risk at the crossing NE of Hengchow (NW of Changsha), but unless you loose Changsha I dont believe he can advance the road towards Kweiyang/Tsuyun and cut your forces into two.

Sprry, i didn't explain myself that well.
I'm not running away right now. This is an emergency plan.
Wuchow will be defended but i won't committ everything for it (a plain hex, with only 3 forts...) and the plan above rapresents only what would happen if Wuchow will be really threatened. I do not know what kind of units are those 11 spotted east of Canton...i suppose Naval units...but still at the moment i gotta go back from Canton. However i'll try to play smart, using the roads and gaining some time...hopefully i'll be able to recover those 2000 AVs east of Changsha and with them stabilize again the front at Whochow...
Problem is that leaving Canton the southern defensive line of Hengchow is threatened...will have to do something also for here...

For what concerns the center (Hankow and Syniang) i'm planning to abbandon those positions only if the Changsha front will collapse...If so i'll have to move whatever i can towards Chungking in order to plan a final resistance there...but untill the souther front remains somehow stable, i'll keep my units there in the center...

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(in reply to Mistmatz)

Post #: 1050

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