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RE: Ambush over Changsha

 
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RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 3:52:03 PM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

GH, can you elaborate on your reasoning to abandoning Sinyang, Hankow and potentially Wuchow?

I'd think that if you threaten those cities he cannot move much of his forces out to gather elsewhere and you wouldn't really shorten your perimeter in the north, just move it to a more behind location.
I agree that the whole southern railroad connected cities are under threat but if you move back now you will provide him with easy grabs and he has the ability to fortify those so it will be difficult taking them back when the time comes. For instance the city next to Kweilin (Liuchow?) is absolutely critical for the supply to the Hengchow/Changsha area. If you volutarily fall back to this position I believe you are more vulnerable than you would be defending at Wuchow. At least you can postpone any withdrawal until you're 100% certain he wants to outflank (meaning a huge force in the wood hex NE of Wuchow. Due to better infrastructure you would still have plenty of time to withdraw if neccessary.

There is of course also big risk at the crossing NE of Hengchow (NW of Changsha), but unless you loose Changsha I dont believe he can advance the road towards Kweiyang/Tsuyun and cut your forces into two.





Sprry, i didn't explain myself that well.
I'm not running away right now. This is an emergency plan.
Wuchow will be defended but i won't committ everything for it (a plain hex, with only 3 forts...) and the plan above rapresents only what would happen if Wuchow will be really threatened. I do not know what kind of units are those 11 spotted east of Canton...i suppose Naval units...but still at the moment i gotta go back from Canton. However i'll try to play smart, using the roads and gaining some time...hopefully i'll be able to recover those 2000 AVs east of Changsha and with them stabilize again the front at Whochow...
Problem is that leaving Canton the southern defensive line of Hengchow is threatened...will have to do something also for here...

For what concerns the center (Hankow and Syniang) i'm planning to abbandon those positions only if the Changsha front will collapse...If so i'll have to move whatever i can towards Chungking in order to plan a final resistance there...but untill the souther front remains somehow stable, i'll keep my units there in the center...



Now I understand, I was under the impression you are executing the withdrawals already. As a worst case plan I totally agree it's solid and should help stabilizing deeper inland.

Changsha at the moment is really a problem, if he manages to get a foothold in Hengchow all troops in Changsha will be trapped and eventually destroyed. Getting such a foothold is possible from the north or from the south. But I believe from the south it's less likely due to river crossing attack into the city (or into the clear RR hex and then move into the city) plus the need for the japanese to defend two clear hexes neighbouring Wuchow to ensure supply. Would be a different story if he can take Wuchow though... so better not let that happen!
What forces do you have in the river crossing hex NE of Hengchow, do you think you can hold him here? Or is there a possibility to dislodge the japanese from Changsha to gain some temporary maneuverability?



(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 1051
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 3:58:44 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		No way. At Changsha he has 6500 AVs against my 4500 (badly supplied). He has 19 units (!!!!!) ready to rivercross North of Changsha so i already moved the 3 corps i had there up north in the woods, letting there only some guerrilla units...i simply  cannot defend everything...:-(
Now i have to consider tha fact that probably Changsha can be abbandoned, in order to save those experienced units and save them to fight another day...however i wanna wait for the Nanchang Armies to come over...anyway...it's a damned mess!...consider also that he has something like 400 bombers and 250 fighters operating in this area...simply impossible

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Post #: 1052
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 4:01:02 PM   
Bogo Mil

 

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline 		I think you should be careful in Changsha. If your troops there are forced to retreat, they'll be almost worthless for many months, because morale grows soo slowly. But you need those troops intact for the defense of Hengchow. Hengchow is protected by a river, so your position is better, there. Thus you have to order the movement back in time.

In the west there will be a similiar situation with Wuchow/lichow. You must hold Lichow, so don't wait until your troops in Wuchow are routed. I would also send all troops from Pakhoi and Nanning to help Lichow - these two citys are not important, and they are cut of if Lichow falls.

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 1053
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 4:14:13 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


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Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

I think you should be careful in Changsha. If your troops there are forced to retreat, they'll be almost worthless for many months, because morale grows soo slowly. But you need those troops intact for the defense of Hengchow. Hengchow is protected by a river, so your position is better, there. Thus you have to order the movement back in time.

In the west there will be a similiar situation with Wuchow/lichow. You must hold Lichow, so don't wait until your troops in Wuchow are routed. I would also send all troops from Pakhoi and Nanning to help Lichow - these two citys are not important, and they are cut of if Lichow falls.



Yes, i know. He's not willing to attack Changsha directly however. After he saw that i had nearly 5000 AVs behind 7 forts he decided to take the other route of encirlement.... However don't be scared: i've already given orders to the troops at Canton to prep for Liuchow, as for those troops at Nanning-Pakoi (those that are not static however).
Anyway, when/if changsha will be in Jap hands everything will be more difficult, because the road towards the central china will be opened for him and i'll have to reconsider my whole defensive plan and possibly abbandon everything south of Tuyun...

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Post #: 1054
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/4/2008 4:33:48 PM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline 		Right, if Changsha falls possibly all southern china will fall as well as you cannot defend the wood hex east of Kweiyang.
So probably it doesn't matter if your troops are smashed at Changsa. Either they hold and everything is fine, or they dont and you loose southern China up to Kweiyang anyway...

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 1055
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/5/2008 8:33:41 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/20/42

14 units entered at Karachi! Tomorrow we'll plan a bombardment...just to see what he really has there and therefore to get some extra experience for my CW units...
Karachi's status is still good enough. 285,000 supplies, despite the bombardment runs and the constant aerial bombings...

In China i'm holding my breath and at the same time redeploying what i can in order to defend my southern perimeter...

Wotje today arrived at Level 4 AF...good!
The preparation for the Ponape operation keeps on going on.

Nothing else to report.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Kako
CA Mogami
CA Nachi
CA Haguro


Allied ground losses:
3654 casualties reported
Guns lost 41

Airbase hits 10
Airbase supply hits 9
Runway hits 38
Port hits 7
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 3


Usual bombarment run by his CAs...his BBs disappeared from India??

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 97
Ki-46-II Dinah x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
14 casualties reported

Airbase hits 5
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 37

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Changsha , at 45,37

OUCH!

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 40
G3M Nell x 18
G4M1 Betty x 54
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 31
Ki-21-II Sally x 19
Ki-49 Helen x 117
Ki-15 Babs x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
158 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 20
Airbase supply hits 18
Runway hits 60

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 127
Ki-48-I Lily x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 8 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 1 destroyed, 3 damaged


Allied ground losses:
204 casualties reported
Guns lost 5
Vehicles lost 3

Airbase hits 2
Runway hits 53


Manila still has 14,000 supplies...not bad!



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Post #: 1056
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 1:12:57 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		Game speed is still slow...i know guys.
Trollelite is still very busy with his studies...the best we can hope is a turn/day for the next month i guess...

However the Wake sub flottilla (15 subs) is ready to be deployed as a screening force in the arc that goes from Saipan-Marcus to Midway...just in case...



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Post #: 1057
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 1:04:13 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/21/42

So the Japanese entered in Karachi with nearly 2500 AVs...some good arty units and nothing much...seems a bit strange to me. Intel says for example that the 18th Jap Division is stationing at Ansalon...quite far away from Karachi.....
...you know what could that mean, right? That he simply may limiting himself in occupying Karachi hex, so to stop the production there with enough AVs to prevent any british attack and that probably some of his crack divisions are already en route for some other destinations...(OZ, pacific...PH...whatever)!!!!
This was probably the worst option i could face...

In China he sent two units (2 Bdes) from Kuikiang to Nanchang...the jap shock attack was repulsed...and, stranger, it also seems that he's not pushing forward north of Changsha...some units are retreating back towards Kuikiang... What the h*** that means?!?!?!?!?!?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Several terrible air attack on Karachi today...

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 120
Ki-46-II Dinah x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 14 damaged


Allied ground losses:
141 casualties reported

Airbase hits 13
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 73

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 107
Ki-48-I Lily x 25

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed, 5 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 4 damaged


Allied ground losses:
108 casualties reported
Guns lost 3
Vehicles lost 1

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 39

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kwajalein , at 81,84


Allied aircraft
P-40B Tomahawk x 24
B-25C Mitchell x 41
B-26B Marauder x 50


Allied aircraft losses
B-25C Mitchell: 3 damaged
B-26B Marauder: 1 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
61 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 3
Airbase supply hits 1
Runway hits 19
Port hits 1
Port fuel hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
5 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
4 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
2 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
2 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
2 x B-26B Marauder bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
3 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
2 x B-25C Mitchell bombing at 16000 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape Coastal Gun Regiment, at 73,80

Another run against the CD guns at Ponape...just to be sure

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 3
B-17E Fortress x 49


Allied aircraft losses
B-17E Fortress: 1 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
297 casualties reported
Guns lost 10




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 143
Ki-46-II Dinah x 2

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 7 damaged


Allied ground losses:
134 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Airbase hits 9
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

You see?...all these Nells/Betties are on Naval attack/Airfield attack....nearly 200 crack long range torpedo bombers based at Bombay....

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 45
G4M1 Betty x 122

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 3 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 8 damaged


Allied ground losses:
214 casualties reported
Guns lost 3

Airbase hits 8
Airbase supply hits 7
Runway hits 64

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Kwajalein , at 81,84


Allied aircraft
SBD-3 Dauntless x 40
OS2U-3 Kingfisher x 1
A-24 Dauntless x 11


Allied aircraft losses
SBD-3 Dauntless: 3 destroyed, 21 damaged
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 1 damaged
A-24 Dauntless: 2 damaged

Runway hits 12
Port fuel hits 1



mmmm...Kwalajein is far from being completely reduced....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 14917 troops, 43 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 369

Defending force 17236 troops, 70 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 460

Japanese max assault: 408 - adjusted assault: 244

Allied max defense: 383 - adjusted defense: 263

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)


Japanese ground losses:
1546 casualties reported
Guns lost 5

Allied ground losses:
51 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Hankow

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 53539 troops, 240 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1793

Defending force 23154 troops, 61 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 310



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Karachi

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 110581 troops, 1071 guns, 494 vehicles, Assault Value = 2673

Defending force 132843 troops, 783 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 2734


Japanese ground losses:
99 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

Allied ground losses:
27 casualties reported
Guns lost 1



_____________________________

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Post #: 1058
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 1:13:06 PM   
Bogo Mil

 

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline 		With the BBs gone and only 100 army bombers, there will be a long siege. 285k supplies is the same as 4 days ago - great. I can't imagine how he could reduce that to zero. Karachi will probably become an Indian Leningrad and hold until you can break the siege from outside. The reconquest of India should become possible in 1944, maybe even late '43,

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Post #: 1059
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 1:28:02 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		Today Karachi had 280,000...the expenditure of those 4/5,000 supplies are probably cause by my bombardment and by his bombers...
It's for sure a problem if he brings his other troops elsewhere, but the garrisons that he will have to keep in India to prevent a "reconquest" by the Brits will be missed elsewhere for sure.

Anyway, i'm sending my whole indian submarine fleet to mine Karachi...some 10 new small minefields could be very usefull against those CAs....

I like the idea of an Indian Leningrad

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Post #: 1060
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 1:32:02 PM   
jumper

 

Posts: 489
Joined: 2/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

With the BBs gone and only 100 army bombers, there will be a long siege. 285k supplies is the same as 4 days ago - great. I can't imagine how he could reduce that to zero. Karachi will probably become an Indian Leningrad and hold until you can break the siege from outside. The reconquest of India should become possible in 1944, maybe even late '43,



It is not that easy. With a few divisions in Karachi, all allied units there are blocked and can not move. They can only attack and face urban bonus and some forts.. GH will be forced to organize landing somewhere else with all risks such operation brings.
As GH posted, this is the worts what could happen. All forces in Karachi are blocked for a very long time and large portion of Japanese army gained oprational freedom with no costs..

(in reply to Bogo Mil)
Post #: 1061
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 1:51:20 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jumper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

With the BBs gone and only 100 army bombers, there will be a long siege. 285k supplies is the same as 4 days ago - great. I can't imagine how he could reduce that to zero. Karachi will probably become an Indian Leningrad and hold until you can break the siege from outside. The reconquest of India should become possible in 1944, maybe even late '43,



It is not that easy. With a few divisions in Karachi, all allied units there are blocked and can not move. They can only attack and face urban bonus and some forts.. GH will be forced to organize landing somewhere else with all risks such operation brings.
As GH posted, this is the worts what could happen. All forces in Karachi are blocked for a very long time and large portion of Japanese army gained oprational freedom with no costs..


This is true.
But also consider this:
There are 5 divisions at Karachi at the moment (see screenshot below). He will need at least some more 3 divisions to garrison the major indian ports (Bombay, Cylon, Madras etc), in order to prevent any counterlanding.
With Karachi alive, he will need to pound it constantly every day. Thus forcing a good numbers of planes to remain stuck in India.
If Karachi fell he would need far less units (in terms of ships,ground units and planes) in order to defend India.
With Karachi alive the threat of seeing springing 100 spitfires and 200 4Es in Karachi anytime in the future would force him to use at least 300 bombers every single day...and keep also a good number of fighters...

There are pros and contras...however a lot of scenarios remain open, and that's damned good for me




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 1062
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 2:21:42 PM   
Bogo Mil

 

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline 		Of couse, the reconquest has to start somewhere else. I would not try to break out of Karachi. The main objective would be to cut of the siege force from Eastern India (the area around Calcutta produces huge amounts of supply).

The British reinforcements from Aden could land south of Bombay, ANZAC and maybe some Americans could land near Calcutta. Then the Japs have a huge problem - suddenly they there are 2 or even 3 fronts in India. Today this is completely impossible, we have to be patient. But once we have some divisions around and our CVs are mighty enough to protect the landing(s) against LBA, it will not be too difficult. It might even be easy. Trollelite doesn't have the troops to siege Karachi, defend in the Pacific and keep strong garrisions all over the Indian coast, too. I presume he doesn't have anything but base forces there.

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Post #: 1063
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 2:27:41 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		The chinese shriking new perimeter....As you can see i hope, redeploying those 2000 AVs saved from the Nanchang pocket, to stabilize the front of Whocow and the whole souther flank...




Attachment (1)

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Post #: 1064
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 2:31:55 PM   
Mistmatz

 

Posts: 1399
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline 		I think the indian theater will not see much activity for the next year.

US carrier support is probably permanently required in the pacific to secure the gains there. The brits alone on the other hand are to weak for quite some time to establish a bridgehead on their own due to lacking air support.
I agree that landing elsewhere in India will probably be better than reinforcing Karachi and breaking out there. If you come from the flank he'll have to withdraw as fast as the allies did in order to save their troops. But as I said I dont see any such operation feasible for quite some time.

(in reply to Bogo Mil)
Post #: 1065
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 2:36:02 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil

Of couse, the reconquest has to start somewhere else. I would not try to break out of Karachi. The main objective would be to cut of the siege force from Eastern India (the area around Calcutta produces huge amounts of supply).

The British reinforcements from Aden could land south of Bombay, ANZAC and maybe some Americans could land near Calcutta. Then the Japs have a huge problem - suddenly they there are 2 or even 3 fronts in India. Today this is completely impossible, we have to be patient. But once we have some divisions around and our CVs are mighty enough to protect the landing(s) against LBA, it will not be too difficult. It might even be easy. Trollelite doesn't have the troops to siege Karachi, defend in the Pacific and keep strong garrisions all over the Indian coast, too. I presume he doesn't have anything but base forces there.


Yes, you're right.
Mangalore would be a good place to land the brits imho...however it's a long way, so for the moment we just have to focus on the survivability of Karachi.
Untill the re-conquest become a real possibility (late 43 at least), we have to think on how to give him some headhaces here.
The british CVs will be very usefull......we'll see what we can do....maybe waiting for one of those very frequent heavy raining days....

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Post #: 1066
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 2:37:27 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mistmatz

I think the indian theater will not see much activity for the next year.

US carrier support is probably permanently required in the pacific to secure the gains there. The brits alone on the other hand are to weak for quite some time to establish a bridgehead on their own due to lacking air support.
I agree that landing elsewhere in India will probably be better than reinforcing Karachi and breaking out there. If you come from the flank he'll have to withdraw as fast as the allies did in order to save their troops. But as I said I dont see any such operation feasible for quite some time.


One year at least...for sure.
Probably never if China breaks down...so now let's think on how to save the yellow guys

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Post #: 1067
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 4:55:06 PM   
hades1001

 

Posts: 977
Joined: 12/17/2007
Status: offline 		5,000 supplies a day would not be a good news

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As swift as wind;
As calm as wood;
Invasion like flames;
Defense like rocks.

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Post #: 1068
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 5:02:29 PM   
Bogo Mil

 

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline 		In India, all we can do now is holding Karachi. I agree with that completely. There can not be a reconquest before late '43, impatience would be deadly.

In Karachi you did turn of replacements for all units, didn't you? This saves suppllies and is the way to go to delay the fall of a doomed place like Manila.
But I'm not sure if this is the best thing to do for such a long siege - we are talking about 500 days! If you don't replace any losses, the strength of the troops will slowly fade away. In the long run, the place might fall because of that attrition, not because of starvation. I would consider to turn on replacements again for the most important combat troops - e.g. all inf units with morale > 50 - at least as long as the supply level is above 100k.

I don't think China is so important. Of course, you should not lose Chungking, but losing some more terrain will not be critical, I think.

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Post #: 1069
The End of the British Empire? - 2/6/2008 5:47:08 PM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Dear Gen. Hoepner,

Due to serious emergencies in other operational theaters, I am recalling you back to London for further consultations. It is imperative that you retain and pull back ALL CommonWealth forces under your command to Aden and Mogadishu for consolidation and immediate counterattack against German/Italian forces recently stationed in Cairo/Pt. Suez.

My latest round of talks with Mr. Roosevelt has left us with little options available to Allied Forces in the Middle East. The loss of the Suez Canal, and Arab revolts in Syria and Iran has forced CW units out of the region. Intelligence reports out of Moscow indicate possible German spring offenses in the southern/Ukraine operation theater with possible objectives of Rostov-Baku-Tehran.

It is imperitve that you realize the ultimate predictiment that the Empire is now facing with the loss of SE Asia/India, Suez, and Oil facilities in Arabia. Liberal Members of Parliment are preparing terms with Labor for possible vote of confidence in this government. Some are calling for the removal of American forces from England and the CW in preparation of talks with Mr. Hitler.

With urgency and respectful regards,

Minister Churchill



[The gig is up for CW in the Middle East? Can Rommel be stopped at Jerusalem? This is the nightmare that Britain feared].


Col. Mussbu

(in reply to Bogo Mil)
Post #: 1070
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/6/2008 8:47:20 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gen.Hoepner
some units are retreating back towards Kuikiang... What the h*** that means?!?!?!?!?!?


He’s out of supply and probably didn’t notice it until he had already crossed the river, if you have enough forces try a deliberate attack and see if you can spank him before he pulls more supplies into his units and comes back.

As to turning on replacements in Karachi, don’t do it. Your units have a large supply draw and as they take casualties this supply draw will decrease allowing them to last longer. As you saw in my Singapore siege, once your units cross a certain experience threshold, they will fight far better.

My guys were at about 25% of their TO&E destroyed and what remained had about 50% disabled and they became unbeatable for Japan even when in such bad shape. It was lack of supplies, not lack of squads that allowed Singapore to fall. The same will be the case for Karachi.

Do everything you can to decrease your supply usage at the expense of everything else. Except for a few AAA units, allow one or two of those units to re-grow once his naval bombardments slacken, so you keep the cost of his air attacks high.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 2/6/2008 8:49:02 PM >

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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 1071
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/7/2008 12:03:03 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/22/42


A good day for the British Empire today.
Supplies in Karachi, since yesterday, have augmented to 282,000!!!..more than 2000 supplies more!! Don't ask me how and why...despite the usual heavy air bombing!
I won't allow replaments for the moment in Karachi...nor in Manila(which is still at 13,400 supplies)...maybe some AA units or some arty...but not now...Jim's right...have to wait untill he moves back his CAs....
However he lost 11 units due to flak only today over Karachi...quite a lot considering that my AA is completely destroyed at the moment!


At Nanchang he sent in another eng unit...alone...easily pushed back
At Yenktu...we repulsed, bloody, a japanese shock attack...he's reinforcing the northern sector...very good
Doing that he's moving some more of his units from Changsha area...seems that the threat in the North has forced him to divert some of his units from the south!
Now we spotted 47 units at Canton...wow!!!...from Hengchow we're sending south more units...let's see what we can do there!
Cannot risk an attack at Changsha...he still has 21 units there...simply too many

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Changsha , at 45,37

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 43
G3M Nell x 26
G4M1 Betty x 52
Ki-43-Ib Oscar x 36
Ki-21-II Sally x 29
Ki-49 Helen x 116
Ki-15 Babs x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
145 casualties reported

Airbase hits 37
Airbase supply hits 13
Runway hits 149

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Manila , at 43,52

Japanese aircraft
B5N2 Kate x 79
Ki-48-I Lily x 16

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged
Ki-48-I Lily: 2 damaged


Allied ground losses:
52 casualties reported
Vehicles lost 1

Runway hits 65

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80

Today we targeted the base force!

Japanese aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 12
B-17E Fortress x 63
F-4 Lightning x 4

Japanese aircraft losses
H6K4 Mavis: 1 destroyed


Japanese ground losses:
87 casualties reported

Airbase supply hits 4
Runway hits 42

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-49 Helen x 119
Ki-46-II Dinah x 2

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-49 Helen: 1 destroyed, 13 damaged

Allied aircraft losses


Allied ground losses:
149 casualties reported
Guns lost 1

Airbase hits 11
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 79

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 55
G4M1 Betty x 129

Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 3 damaged
G4M1 Betty: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged

Allied aircraft losses


Allied ground losses:
261 casualties reported
Guns lost 10

Airbase hits 7
Airbase supply hits 5
Runway hits 136



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Yangku

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 25490 troops, 120 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 621

Defending force 29766 troops, 137 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 820

Japanese max assault: 1274 - adjusted assault: 389

Allied max defense: 826 - adjusted defense: 417

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1


Japanese ground losses:
2562 casualties reported
Guns lost 20

Allied ground losses:
189 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 2532 troops, 0 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 283

Defending force 35338 troops, 157 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1052

Japanese max assault: 22 - adjusted assault: 4

Allied max defense: 733 - adjusted defense: 541

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)


Japanese ground losses:
130 casualties reported

Allied ground losses:
94 casualties reported
Guns lost 2

This attack was really a suicide!!!





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(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 1072
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/7/2008 12:04:02 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		Karachi status...incredible




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(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 1073
RE: The End of the British Empire? - 2/7/2008 12:12:12 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

Dear Gen. Hoepner,

Due to serious emergencies in other operational theaters, I am recalling you back to London for further consultations. It is imperative that you retain and pull back ALL CommonWealth forces under your command to Aden and Mogadishu for consolidation and immediate counterattack against German/Italian forces recently stationed in Cairo/Pt. Suez.

My latest round of talks with Mr. Roosevelt has left us with little options available to Allied Forces in the Middle East. The loss of the Suez Canal, and Arab revolts in Syria and Iran has forced CW units out of the region. Intelligence reports out of Moscow indicate possible German spring offenses in the southern/Ukraine operation theater with possible objectives of Rostov-Baku-Tehran.

It is imperitve that you realize the ultimate predictiment that the Empire is now facing with the loss of SE Asia/India, Suez, and Oil facilities in Arabia. Liberal Members of Parliment are preparing terms with Labor for possible vote of confidence in this government. Some are calling for the removal of American forces from England and the CW in preparation of talks with Mr. Hitler.

With urgency and respectful regards,

Minister Churchill



[The gig is up for CW in the Middle East? Can Rommel be stopped at Jerusalem? This is the nightmare that Britain feared].


Col. Mussbu


Dear Mr. Churchill....sorry, here in the Middle East, due to the serious communication problems we're experiencing, we cannot recieve your messages...
However, in the spirit of our great Union Jack, we can assure you that we will fight till the last man for Karachi.

Respectfully,

Gen.Hoepner


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(in reply to mussey)
Post #: 1074
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/7/2008 12:18:17 AM   
Elladan

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/18/2005
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline 		Some of your units in Karachi probably dumped excess supply back to the base. 

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 1075
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/7/2008 12:19:26 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Elladan

Some of your units in Karachi probably dumped excess supply back to the base. 


Yes...seems plausible.
However i'm pleased to see that a month of constat bombing didn't reduce much my supplies stocks---

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(in reply to Elladan)
Post #: 1076
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/7/2008 12:26:10 AM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bogo Mil



I don't think China is so important. Of course, you should not lose Chungking, but losing some more terrain will not be critical, I think.



Bogo, if the actual perimeter breaks down...everything can happen...we do not have any serious reserve army anywhere in the inland...If we lose our "6th army" in the chinese stalingrad (changsha)...the whole front could collapse... we gotta hold!!!!

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(in reply to Bogo Mil)
Post #: 1077
RE: Ambush over Changsha - 2/7/2008 12:31:32 AM   
Elladan

 

Posts: 300
Joined: 8/18/2005
From: Manchester, UK
Status: offline
quote:


However i'm pleased to see that a month of constat bombing didn't reduce much my supplies stocks---

That's impressive indeed, especially considering huge amount of supply you have there. According to the popular theory each supply hit should destroy around 3000 points in your case, fortunately for you the code must be more complicated than that

quote:

..If we lose our "6th army" in the chinese stalingrad (changsha)...the whole front could collapse...

That's true but don't forget you will get all your units back in Chungking at 1/3 TOE in just a month (if they are destroyed that is).

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 1078
RE: The End of the British Empire? - 2/7/2008 6:16:59 AM   
mussey


Posts: 683
Joined: 12/2/2006
From: Cleve-Land
Status: offline 		Gen. H., thanks for being a good sport ! Your game is incredible, and shows folks with limited playing experience such as myself, the tremendous opportunities that witp has. Your opponent has thrust the Japanese cababilities to the limit and has reached a strategic threshold most players never face - the demise of British control in the SE Asia Theater of Operations. I achieved this only once in the older PacWar. The free world is praying that you hold on to Karachi, and our thoughts are with you.

Now a few practical thoughts for the Admiral's Edition:
- are there garrison rules that cover Jap. occupation of conquered cities/urban areas? It would seem that at least some units would need to cover major urban areas of Madras, Decca, Calcutta, etc.
- we may need a larger map (off-map) of the Mid-East
- is there a need for politcal rules in India? I'm curious how a Jap. penetration/occupation of India would influence British control there. ie would they support Jap. 'liberation', or would it be viewed as fascist occupation to be fought (guerrila war) to the bitter end? Would it instigate Indian-Pakistani strife/civil war?
- are there any random events that tie in German/Italian moves in the Mediteranian/Mid East/ Egypt? What about the German spring offensive in southern Russia (Baku, Stalingrad, Iran)? I guess it would seem easy to extend an already extended battle space that occupies more than half the globe, but playability?
- there are only 2 ultimate strategic outcomes the would allow the Axis to win this war; 1) Ger & Jap control of Russia, or 2) the British loss of the Suez, Mid East, & India (their widest & weakest front). Either of these 2 events allows Axis to focus forces on surviving areas. With the fall of India, Jap. can now dramatically concentrate on China, Aus., and the outer defense perimeter (Pacific).

In any event, a most sincere kudos to you both for supplying a most facinating operational & theorieretical (sp) glimpse into a great match. Better than "I Love Lucy". I have learned alot!

Col. Mussbu

PS - I re-enlisted and am reporting myself on the first flight to Karachi. BYOB?

(in reply to Gen.Hoepner)
Post #: 1079
RE: The End of the British Empire? - 2/7/2008 3:52:31 PM   
Gen.Hoepner


Posts: 3645
Joined: 9/4/2001
From: italy
Status: offline 		AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR 04/23/42


My minelaying subs are starting their job at Karachi, leaving some eggs there...SS KXIV got unlucky cause his torp didn't detonate..
Our CVs got closer to the entrance of the Aden Channell and spotted several hunting enemy subs and a single AK...clearly there as a bait...well, i like the idea that he knows i'm putting my nose in...he will be forced to keep his eyes wide open!
Karachi's supply status is back at 280,000 after today bombings...
Manila remains at 13,000
In China he sent another unit to shock attack at Nanchang...another useless defeat for him...
We managed to put a chinese corp in the woods where its comm lines passes through between Changsha and Kiukiang...he will be forced to push us out..one more day gained for Changsha (cause he cannot attack if his supply line is interrupted).





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Karachi at 21,3

Japanese Ships
DD Nenohi
DD Samidare
DD Harusame
DD Murasame

Allied Ships
SS KXIV, hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Naval bombardment of Karachi, at 21,3

Japanese Ships
CA Furutaka
CA Aoba
CA Takao
CA Tone


Allied ground losses:
1951 casualties reported
Guns lost 42

Airbase hits 2
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 19
Port hits 3
Port fuel hits 2
Port supply hits 1

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Karachi , at 21,3

Japanese aircraft
Ki-21-II Sally x 107
Ki-46-II Dinah x 14

Japanese aircraft losses
Ki-21-II Sally: 3 damaged


Allied ground losses:
15 casualties reported

Airbase hits 4
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 45

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on Ponape , at 73,80

Another tour over Ponape...today at Eniwetok arrived an air HQ...very good!..we're almost ready!

Allied aircraft
P-40E Warhawk x 13
B-17E Fortress x 58
F-4 Lightning x 4


No Allied losses

Japanese ground losses:
29 casualties reported

Port hits 1
Port supply hits 2

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF at 12,4

This was his bait near the Aden Channell...


Allied aircraft
Sea Hurricane x 2
Fulmar x 4
Albacore x 18


No Allied losses

Japanese Ships
AK Shingetsu Maru, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Changsha
so he started to bombard Changsha....

Japanese Bombardment attack

Attacking force 3022 troops, 72 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 6530

Defending force 183609 troops, 829 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 4528



Allied ground losses:
190 casualties reported


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ground combat at Nanchang

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 7968 troops, 24 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 486

Defending force 45469 troops, 201 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 1378

Japanese max assault: 234 - adjusted assault: 1

Allied max defense: 1039 - adjusted defense: 346

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1 (fort level 6)


Japanese ground losses:
1226 casualties reported
Guns lost 4

Allied ground losses:
66 casualties reported
Guns lost 1


Another Bde sacrificed for nothing





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(in reply to mussey)
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