Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Battle of Guadalcanal

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 8:09:35 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		THAT was one of the points I was going to make but the head started hurting!



_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 31
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 9:34:52 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

Mike,

I agree with your summary and that is what I get for rushing the posting instead of detailing it.

IF---you make a great comment with it and the English language---is the operational word. 

I had written a long set of detailed IFs regarding events of that morning and then started to get a headache and gave up.  It still seems fascinating to ask what would have happened if the two forces wiped each other out?  The Japanese would still have had about a half dozen CV/CVLs where the Americans would have only had Wasp.  There would have been Naval parody through early-1943.  No Guadalcanal to bleed the Japanese Naval Air Corps dry. Would have made for an interesting American counter-offensive!


Wait a minute..., you just sank the six fleet carriers! That puts a serious hole in the Japanese Naval Air Corps...., especially in the most difficult-to-train carrier pilots. Also the Wasp would be reinforced by the Saratoga before the Fall..., and the remaining Japanese CVL's/CVE's were relatively slow and inefficient vessels. Plus you have to figure that under the pressure of losing the other 4 CV's, Henry Kaiser would have gone into CVE production mode earlier. And the US Army Air Corps would undoubtedly sent a higher proportion of it's strength to the Pacific as well. I agree it would have certainly been a different situation..., but I don't think it would have been as "happy a time" for the Japanese as you suppose.








(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 32
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 9:50:49 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		You are ruining all my fun thinking and hypotheticals!  

Your are clouding my world with FACTS and that makes my head hurt all the more...

To tell the truth, I hadn't thought about old Saratoga since she seemed to be a torpedo magnet for the first 18 months of the war.  Wonder how the crew felt missing all those actions?  I know that the Sara's pilots did quite well when they were bumped over to Guadalcanal.

New Thought:
With the groundbreaking work done in Shattered Sword, do you think there will be re-written naval histories coming out taking the Japanese aerial doctrine and CV practices into account and seeing the battles from a slightly different perspective?  I thought that was Shattered Swords most interesting area of contribution.  Have to admit that the detailed description of the attempts to save the CVs was excellent as well.



_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 33
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 11:03:54 AM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		oh boy, what did you guys just made me do........

You just made me order Shattered Sword myself without even thinking about the 50$ it set me back....

_____________________________

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 34
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 12:44:31 PM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

I actually consider "the turning point" to be where CPO Shun decked...

Oh wait.

Nevermind.

-F-




_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 35
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 12:53:11 PM   
fcam1387

 

Posts: 397
Joined: 5/17/2006
Status: offline 		Something similar is happening in my pbem game as the Japs, albeit a little earlier. I didn't put much effort into the Solomons (a grave mistake in hindsight) and my opponent decided to make his stand there. While my forces are superior, the sheer weight of Allied numbers has had a borderline disastrous effect on my air and sea power. I did not intend on this becoming a decisive theatre of operation, but it did nonetheless. I am now paying dearly for it. Unless I get a major break pretty soon it's going to be all over for me relatively quickly.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 36
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 2:23:42 PM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:

Wait a minute..., you just sank the six fleet carriers! That puts a serious hole in the Japanese Naval Air Corps...., especially in the most difficult-to-train carrier pilots.

Actually Shattered Sword shows rather well than aircrew losses at Midway were rather small when compared to the tonnage they lost

I concour with SouthernAP on the attrition thing: Guadalcanal was the long battle which bled dead the IJN pilot pools, and new AAA aboard US ships had a great deal of responsability in this
Just checking Okumiya's testimony will show just how much they were suffering from these operations...


< Message edited by Fishbed -- 10/30/2007 2:25:26 PM >

(in reply to fcam1387)
Post #: 37
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 3:36:30 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline 		I think the only solutions to these "what if" posts are the hypothetical "what if Midway didn't happen" scenarios in UV.

That said, IJ air wings were indigenous to their carriers, while US wings were interchangable w/any CV ; although the US lost a CV at Coral Sea, the IJ wings were decimated and could not quickly be replaced before Midway.

And yes, I got that from Shattered Sword; some local libraries order books for their patrons, and that can save you the $35 or so price tag.

_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 38
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 3:51:21 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

... This is a good point, and it makes me wonder what would have happened if the the additional fighter cover from the other two IJN carriers had been available? Alas, only speculation is available.


While the strikes were rearming below deck, the only IJN planes available/being lauched at this time were CAP; however, many of them got pulled into what Sword called "Thach's Flying Circus." His innovative weave was puzzling -- if not lethal -- to the IJN CAP, and it quickly got a disproportionate amount of its attention.

Further, many Zeros had radios that were unreliable, and coordinating CAP was haphazzard at best fo the IJN flight officer who had only one freak for all planes, and way too much to do on deck coordinating take-offs and landings.


_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 39
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 4:06:20 PM   
Fishbed

 

Posts: 1822
Joined: 11/21/2005
From: Beijing, China - Paris, France
Status: offline
quote:


That said, IJ air wings were indigenous to their carriers, while US wings were interchangable w/any CV ; although the US lost a CV at Coral Sea, the IJ wings were decimated and could not quickly be replaced before Midway.

While Shattered Sword underlines this fact, it also underlines the complete lack of flexibility of the IJN command mind, together with its unbelievable self-confidence - had they have any doubt about the success of both MI and AL, they may have think about re-using Zuikaku with pieces of Shokaku airgroup. As you say, the US did that, using Saratoga aircrews to fill the Yorktown complement. To mix the flyboys wasn't common usage, but still they did it, because they thought they desperately needed it. But well IJN would only face "despair" after Midway. Sure they had suddenly no choice but to re-assign the hundreds carrier-less pilots they got from Midway to the few surviving airwings 

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 40
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 5:02:51 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

You are ruining all my fun thinking and hypotheticals!  

Your are clouding my world with FACTS and that makes my head hurt all the more...

To tell the truth, I hadn't thought about old Saratoga since she seemed to be a torpedo magnet for the first 18 months of the war.  Wonder how the crew felt missing all those actions?  I know that the Sara's pilots did quite well when they were bumped over to Guadalcanal.

New Thought:
With the groundbreaking work done in Shattered Sword, do you think there will be re-written naval histories coming out taking the Japanese aerial doctrine and CV practices into account and seeing the battles from a slightly different perspective?  I thought that was Shattered Swords most interesting area of contribution.  Have to admit that the detailed description of the attempts to save the CVs was excellent as well.




While I didn't agree with everything in it, and found it to be a bit pedantic in trying to force all data into it's conclusions; I thought SHATTERED SWORD was an excellent addition to the literature on the subject.
Got people considering a subject long regarded as closed.

Don't want to discourage your enthusiasm for what if's..., but you need to broaden your basis of consideration. The game already provides a really big one, in that the IJA and IJN AREN'T almost literally "at war" with each other. They cooperate with no fuss or agendas. I'd love to see a mod that corrected this. One with two Japanese players competing against one another against the AI. That would be interesting.

(in reply to John 3rd)
Post #: 41
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 6:26:25 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		One might also suggest that the real turning point in the war was when the P-38, Hellcat, Thunderbolt and Corsair each flew their first missions.  Each first was a deadly nail in the coffin for Japan.  Once the U.S. had unquestioned control of the skies, it was all over except for the fat geisha singing.

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 42
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 7:32:02 PM   
Joe D.


Posts: 4004
Joined: 8/31/2005
From: Stratford, Connecticut
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

... The game already provides a really big one, in that the IJA and IJN AREN'T almost literally "at war" with each other. They cooperate with no fuss or agendas. I'd love to see a mod that corrected this. One with two Japanese players competing against one another against the AI. That would be interesting.


The old Koei PTO had a monthly meeting where the human player -- as the supreme naval commander -- had to compete for resources w/his (AI) counterparts in the other service branches and government. Koei modded this thru a "poker game" where you were dealt cards, such as "pass'," "no," "yes," etc., that were used in responding to various resource allocation demands by all at the table.



_____________________________

Stratford, Connecticut, U.S.A.

"The Angel of Okinawa"

Home of the Chance-Vought Corsair, F4U
The best fighter-bomber of World War II

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 43
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/30/2007 8:14:30 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I actually wish that the IJA--IJN friction could be modeled better.  Something like the transfer of any army unit to an 'army' theatre--Burma, China, Manchukuo and Philippines--is at this point price and the transfer to the South Pac, SE Pac, Cen Pac, and North Pac costs TWICE as much.  That would really reflect the competitive nature of things.  The IJN could start with X-amount of units for beginning operations then it takes LOTS of time (points) until you can get more.

This idea would really serve to slow aggressive players (like myself) from moving so quickly.



_____________________________



Member: Treaty, Reluctant Admiral and Between the Storms Mod Team.

Reluctant Admiral Mod:
https://sites.google.com/site/reluctantadmiral/

(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 44
RE: Battle of Guadalcanal - 10/31/2007 9:36:56 AM   
Kadrin


Posts: 183
Joined: 5/5/2005
From: Orange, California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe D.

The old Koei PTO had a monthly meeting where the human player -- as the supreme naval commander -- had to compete for resources w/his (AI) counterparts in the other service branches and government. Koei modded this thru a "poker game" where you were dealt cards, such as "pass'," "no," "yes," etc., that were used in responding to various resource allocation demands by all at the table.



I never played PTO, but I did play PTO 2, and I thought the little inter-service maneuvering to get more funds was nice. Though it did get a little extreme sometimes. (I managed to get every single country in the game to declare war on Japan once. Was nice seeing Bismark out in the Pacific shooting at Japanese ships. )

_____________________________



(in reply to Joe D.)
Post #: 45
Page:   <<   < prev  1 [2]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> RE: Battle of Guadalcanal Page: <<   < prev  1 [2]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

8.531