RE: When would you use the infantery gun?

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

RE: When would you use the infantery gun?

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> Advanced Tactics Series >> RE: When would you use the infantery gun?

Page: << < prev 1 [2]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/12/2007 2:37:54 AM

Willburn

Posts: 74
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

Herode2 on defence I would rather have an Antitank gun, its prett good vs infantery too and just as costly. (and much more deadly vs tanks.) But yeah I guess thats somewhat an argument for it.

(in reply to Westheim)

Post #: 31

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/12/2007 10:28:09 AM

seille

Posts: 2134
Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline

IG�s are a great weapon when you attack cities or fortifications.
Their weak point is the need of trucks to keep them mobile and
the vulnerability against air attacks. But hey, armored cars are also
easy targets for these planes.
When i plan to attack a city/fortification i would always prefer the IG above
the armored car. Against entrenched infantry in bigger numbers the AC will take losses
mostly. And you can easily lose a lot of them depending on the situation.

@Westheim
Tanks are for destroying other tanks, but also very good against infantry in the open.
I use them often as infantry support weapon.

_____________________________

(in reply to Westheim)

Post #: 32

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/12/2007 3:57:20 PM

Willburn

Posts: 74
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: seille

IG�s are a great weapon when you attack cities or fortifications.
Their weak point is the need of trucks to keep them mobile and
the vulnerability against air attacks. But hey, armored cars are also
easy targets for these planes.
When i plan to attack a city/fortification i would always prefer the IG above
the armored car. Against entrenched infantry in bigger numbers the AC will take losses
mostly. And you can easily lose a lot of them depending on the situation.

to repeat myself:
Ac has 10 attacks with 65. Demodded thats 32.5. The IG does a clean shot 150 (100*1.5) but only 2 attacks. Rifle has 100 hp. Default entrenchment in city is 100 so rifle is 200hp. chance for ac to hit once = 32.5/200*0.5 8.125% chance for IG to hit 37.5%. (150/200*0.5) on average with ac 10 attacks it would hit 0.8125 times and the ig would hit 0.75 times. Not to mention the fact the ac is drawing away 10 attacks from other units due to the counterfire it produces, that it can pretty easy fend off with its high hitpoint value. Add to that the recon bonus and carry bonus and I still think the AC is superior in every way.

The AC is still superior to the IG even in the terrain the IG has the highest bonus in compared with the AC.

(in reply to seille)

Post #: 33

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/12/2007 4:12:49 PM

Vic

Posts: 8262
Joined: 5/17/2004
Status: offline

@willburn,

but the infantry gun will not be shot at very often if you attack with enough supporting infantry. its a rear area subformation that makes it a more durable investment.

especially facing a counterattack the armoured cars might be easy victims.

(in reply to Willburn)

Post #: 34

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/12/2007 9:32:38 PM

IRONCROM

Posts: 679
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Las Vegas, Nevada
Status: offline

Interesting point Vic... I ussually build my inf. divisions with one or two AC's attached and do seem to be replacing them at pretty regular rate. And when I face armor I might as well kiss them good bye. They aren't cheap either. I think I'll test out the IG and AC in different formations and see what I prefer using.
Thanx

(in reply to Vic)

Post #: 35

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/14/2007 7:45:53 PM

maxfra

Posts: 27
Joined: 11/9/2007
Status: offline

Probably IG are better than AC if the enemy infantry is full of anti tank units (bazookas and AT Guns).
In this case the AC would live much less (being in the frontline and being targeted a lot) than IG....

(in reply to Westheim)

Post #: 36

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/17/2007 8:49:09 AM

IRONCROM

Posts: 679
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Las Vegas, Nevada
Status: offline

Well I've done a bit of testing with my units and The IG is a durable piece of equiptment. I do seem to take more infantry losses without an AC though. I've also built formations with both...Kinda like those.
Now i've done a bit of testing with AT's also and those baby's kick butt. Enemy armor doesn't seem so intimdating anymore with an AT attached to my infantry. Done a little testing with an AT and IG attached without the AC and found I like the results there as well...

(in reply to maxfra)

Post #: 37

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/17/2007 9:08:35 AM

Willburn

Posts: 74
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

Okay so I think we have finaly pieced together the use for the infantery gun. Its when you are expecting enemy stacks with anti tank stuff (AT gun or bazooka guys). Thats the most convincing argument I have heard so far. I still think they are meh but thats my own oppinion. :) I do see that the situation described above is a valid use for them. I just feel i get more value for the bucks with armored cars :) (the added values of Recon and carry) And to attack the last argument (together with bazooka) wouldnt the infantery kill bazooka guys easily? Then how about together with at gun? At gun is good defensive..IG is not..

< Message edited by Willburn -- 11/17/2007 9:22:55 AM >

(in reply to IRONCROM)

Post #: 38

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 11/17/2007 6:03:59 PM

IRONCROM

Posts: 679
Joined: 8/19/2007
From: Las Vegas, Nevada
Status: offline

For me i would say the AC is a better performer in battle hands down. I can see the difference in game without having to simulate hundreds of battles and I've also seen how much more I am replacing them compared to the IG. The AC is costing me more because of the heavy fall out rate they have compared to the IG. But... They do seem to cause fewer losses for my infantry when they are attached compared to the IG.
So is the decreased loss of infantry enough to pay for the increased cost of the AC. And does the fact that the AC performs better in battle make the first argument irrelevant. WHEW!!!
I am so confused now... I think i'll just start attaching one of each to all my infantry formations. LOL
Besides I don't think I could bring myself to stop using the AC in favor of the IG. Rather I think I may consider adding IG's to my formations to get that extra punch and only because the rarely need replacing.

(in reply to Willburn)

Post #: 39

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 12/24/2007 12:13:32 AM

jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com

Posts: 137
Joined: 2/27/2004
Status: offline

Wilburn:

Very good thread. This is just the sort of detailed analysis that I find interesting and useful. I think you make a good case that the Armored Car is overpowered in Advanced Tactics, though I recognise that your original point was that the Infanrty Gun is underpowered, and that may well also be true. However, in World War 2 the armored car was not used in great numbers, presumably because the combatants did not find it to be all that effective. In Advanced Tactics it is quite powerful and effective (as you have clearly demonstrated) and seems to be used frequently, which is somewhat ahistoric, in my opinion.

I do think, however, that you overlook one of the strengths of the Infantry Gun, mainly that by firing early in the combat it contributes to the "snowball effect" that you mentioned in one of your posts. It is a "force multiplier" that fires from it's relatively safe position behind the front lines and acts to soften up the defenses so that other units (such as armored cars, infantry or tanks) will be more effective. This is especially true against fortified opposition, and in terrain where armored cars, tanks and other armored vehicles are less effective. This strikes me as a good example of how Advanced Tactics effectively models complicated concepts like combined arms, while still being very playable. It sounds like a little rebalancing may be in order (unless it has already been done), but the basic concept is handled really well.

< Message edited by jeffreys -- 12/24/2007 12:15:22 AM >

_____________________________

All My Best,

Jeff Sutro

(in reply to IRONCROM)

Post #: 40

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 3/14/2009 10:51:01 AM

Willburn

Posts: 74
Joined: 10/29/2006
Status: offline

Reviving this thread from the dead as I am playing again. I found a use for the infantery gun, its 100 x 2 attacks and 50% bonus vs urban is very good when you counter in the bonus from experience and staff. Usually around 50% or more. you will have attacks around 300 points that will score a lot of infantery hits. (300 attack vs 100 will score 2/3 of the time a hit just based on your own throw and not only on the opponents hit point throw also)On the other hand if you use the armored car it would be reduced for attacking the urban city and then bonus will be very low for staff and experience since the base attack is much lower. (32.5*50=48.7 ) Still if its open landscape or it is not a city you are attacking i will use the armored car instead because of all the other bonuses.

< Message edited by Willburn -- 3/14/2009 10:53:27 AM >

(in reply to jeffreysutro@jeffreysutro.com)

Post #: 41

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 3/14/2009 12:27:46 PM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline

Standard Infantry unit for me....

2 Armored cars
35 Rifle
5 Machineguns
5 Mortars
5 Bazooka
2 Anti tank guns
1 Infantry Gun
4 Halftracks ( or 8 horses)

Standard Armor unit.....

4 Armored cars
2 Light Tanks
2 Medium Tanks
20 scouts ( with 4 AC you can use rifle here if you have no scouts)
5 Machineguns
5 Mortars
5 Bazooka

(in reply to Willburn)

Post #: 42

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 3/14/2009 2:02:47 PM

82ndtrooper

Posts: 1083
Joined: 12/19/2008
From: tennessee
Status: offline

armored cars are ok early in the game but once the enemies infantry starts teching up you better make a lot of armored cars because they will die fast. AC's are a nice unit for scouting though.

Infantry guns on the other hand allmost never die.� They are rear support for infantry so basically you use your infantry as meat shields for the IG's and just keep reinforcing the infantry.� They do a very good job of making your infantry units much stronger just like mortars, ( I feel motars are the best unit in the game)

if you make a infantry unit with say 40 infantry 2 IG's and 6 horses you will find this to be a very mobile and sturdy unit in all terrian whether on offense or defense.�
as this unit fights the IG's will keep gaining xp and you tech them up along with your infantry and by the time they both�are tech 3 they will laugh at armored cars. IG's also are semi decent anti tank guns in a pinch when on defense.

My favorite infantry unit is 40 infantry and 10 mortar either on foot or horse mounted.� The mortars work the same as the IG's and are more mobile. they also allmost never die.

just keep some infantry in your HQ so that you can keep these units reinforced.

for mechanised Infantry to assult towns and fortifacations I use infantry, IG's, AT's and mortars carried in halftracks. Halftracks scout as well as AC's.

one reason I prefer mortars is because if my transport for the IG's get killed than the unit becomes crippled mobility wise and is pretty useless until you replace the transport.

I primaraly use AC's in my armored units for the scouting bonus.

< Message edited by 82ndtrooper -- 3/14/2009 2:19:59 PM >

(in reply to Westheim)

Post #: 43

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 3/14/2009 2:07:26 PM

Joshuatree

Posts: 507
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Netherlands
Status: offline

So that's 75 points for an Inf unit, and 95 points for an Armor unit... so tell me, how do you attack from multiple hexes without the crowding penalty? The max amount of attack points without a penalty from one hex is 100. But then you won't get a bonus. The max amount of attack points from two hexes is still 100, with a... hm, 10%... 25% bonus, up to 50% bonus if one is attacking from two opposite hexes. Those two units you described total up to 170. Or is it a different version of AT you play?
I sort of do use the same unit composition you describe, but never go over 50 points for an unit, therefore making it possible to attack from six hexes without a crowding penalty.

(in reply to Twotribes)

Post #: 44

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 3/14/2009 2:30:30 PM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline

2 hexes is 150 not 100 I believe. My standard Hqs supported force is 3 Infantry units, 2 Armored units, and an artillery unit. The Hqs only needs 120 staff ( more if you put in replacements for losses at the Hqs.)

(in reply to Joshuatree)

Post #: 45

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 3/15/2009 12:09:49 PM

Joshuatree

Posts: 507
Joined: 12/30/2007
From: Netherlands
Status: offline

Hm, just picked up the manual, page 56, about crowding and penalty. Attacking from one or two hexes can be done with 100 stack points, three hexes is 150, four hexes is 200 and so on till six hexes is 300 stack points with the max. amount of bonus (if from the same HQ). Then again, you might be playing a different version.

(in reply to Twotribes)

Post #: 46

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 3/15/2009 2:24:06 PM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline

We all love a smart ass. Go ahead keep up the good work.

(in reply to Joshuatree)

Post #: 47

RE: When would you use the infantery gun? - 3/15/2009 7:22:35 PM

Jeffrey H.

Posts: 3154
Joined: 4/13/2007
From: San Diego, Ca.
Status: offline

I've been skipping AC's and heading straight into light tanks. Seems to work pretty good, especially if I have to pay for the first level research techs.
Just make sure to add 5 squishies per LT for the scouting bonus. Any type of squishy will do, Rifles, Mortars, Scouts...etc.

_____________________________

History began July 4th, 1776. Anything before that was a mistake.

Ron Swanson

(in reply to Twotribes)

Post #: 48