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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima

 
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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/19/2007 10:40:03 PM   
KG Erwin


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What I'm seeing in this thread is evidence of vicious racial stereotyping, which unfortunately still exists.

Back to the original point of the thread: not all of the Japanese soldiers portrayed in "Letters" ran around screaming "Maline, you die!". Patriotism and blind obedience to an evil or incompetent government aren't necessarily related. Some of you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference.

Rational thinking seems to be in short supply in these days. This thread is on the downward slope to the inevitable locking up.

(in reply to mikul82)
Post #: 61
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/19/2007 10:40:43 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlc82

(please don't think I'm being 100% serious here, but this IS a genuine question)

Do you think then, that if the Japanese given their WWII history should not be portrayed as anything less than savage and barbaric (and not just in an obvious scenario such as a movie about Nanking, but rather ALL of them), then did you also find it atrocious that the recent 300 movie showed Spartans as being anything less than what we today would consider hard core totalitarian fascists completely devoid of any sympathy for anyone other than fellow Spartans (similar to Nazi sentiment toward Jews, Eastern peoples, etc)? That they were portrayed as freedom loving heroes of mankind should be especially galling...


No. I sorta kinda liked "Letters" and had no problem with the Japanese officer being shown positively. I did have a problem with the Marines being shown negatively without the proper context. I doubt the average audience member is aware of the previous history the Marines had in places like Guadalcanal. After all, most recent US High School graduates think we fought alongside the Germans against the Soviets in WW2.

I loved "300" but I'd say it belongs in the company of "LOTR" rather than "Tora, Tora, Tora.

One is ancient history and the other is recent history, at least for me. You're a generation removed. None of my Dad's grandkids take WW2 as personal as his kids do.


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Post #: 62
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/19/2007 10:42:28 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

What I'm seeing in this thread is evidence of vicious racial stereotyping, which unfortunately still exists.

Back to the original point of the thread: not all of the Japanese soldiers portrayed in "Letters" ran around screaming "Maline, you die!". Patriotism and blind obedience to an evil or incompetent government aren't necessarily related. Some of you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference.

Rational thinking seems to be in short supply in these days. This thread is on the downward slope to the inevitable locking up.


What I'm seeing above is evidence of ignorance. And the inevitable call by "Gunny" for a lock up.


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Post #: 63
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/19/2007 10:44:48 PM   
mikul82

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: mlc82

(please don't think I'm being 100% serious here, but this IS a genuine question)

Do you think then, that if the Japanese given their WWII history should not be portrayed as anything less than savage and barbaric (and not just in an obvious scenario such as a movie about Nanking, but rather ALL of them), then did you also find it atrocious that the recent 300 movie showed Spartans as being anything less than what we today would consider hard core totalitarian fascists completely devoid of any sympathy for anyone other than fellow Spartans (similar to Nazi sentiment toward Jews, Eastern peoples, etc)? That they were portrayed as freedom loving heroes of mankind should be especially galling...


No. I sorta kinda liked "Letters" and had no problem with the Japanese officer being shown positively. I did have a problem with the Marines being shown negatively without the proper context. I doubt the average audience member is aware of the previous history the Marines had in places like Guadalcanal. After all, most recent US High School graduates think we fought alongside the Germans against the Soviets in WW2.

I loved "300" but I'd say it belongs in the company of "LOTR" rather than "Tora, Tora, Tora.

One is ancient history and the other is recent history, at least for me. You're a generation removed. None of my Dad's grandkids take WW2 as personal as his kids do.



I honestly don't remember "Letters" showing the Marines in a negative light beyond them being the enemies of the main character, but it's been awhile since I've seen it, and I only saw it once.

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Post #: 64
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/19/2007 11:02:04 PM   
KG Erwin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

What I'm seeing in this thread is evidence of vicious racial stereotyping, which unfortunately still exists.

Back to the original point of the thread: not all of the Japanese soldiers portrayed in "Letters" ran around screaming "Maline, you die!". Patriotism and blind obedience to an evil or incompetent government aren't necessarily related. Some of you seem to be incapable of understanding the difference.

Rational thinking seems to be in short supply in these days. This thread is on the downward slope to the inevitable locking up.


What I'm seeing above is evidence of ignorance. And the inevitable call by "Gunny" for a lock up.



Ignorance of what? Are you telling me that the Japanese ARE all bloodthirsty baby killers? How about our allies the Russians? They are all vodka-swilling automatons?

I hold little tolerance for those who are judgmental , and obviously don't take any of this pseudointellectual crap seriously. We have our opinions, and none of this typing practice is gonna change anything.

It's a gaming forum, not a place to get on political soapboxes. We WERE talking about a movie, weren't we?

I liked it. See ya later.

< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 11/19/2007 11:23:36 PM >

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Post #: 65
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/19/2007 11:21:38 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Ignorance of what? Are you telling me that the Japanese ARE all bloodthirsty baby killers? How about our allies the Russians? They are all vodka-swilling automatons? Please explain how I am wrong, and how far-right you are.


Ignorance of racism for one.

The Japanese are NOT all "bloodthirsty baby killers". BUT Japanese doctrine was abominable during WW2. Atrocities were the norm.

The difference between Nanking & My Lai is that the latter was a national disgrace condemned on the front page of all our newspapers; with the perpetrators punished. OTOH, the "beheading" competition in Nanking was a sporting event. We punish rapists, the Japs had "comfort" women. Imperial Japan and the US are not moral equivalents.


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Post #: 66
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/19/2007 11:32:57 PM   
KG Erwin


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428


quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

Ignorance of what? Are you telling me that the Japanese ARE all bloodthirsty baby killers? How about our allies the Russians? They are all vodka-swilling automatons? Please explain how I am wrong, and how far-right you are.


Ignorance of racism for one.

The Japanese are NOT all "bloodthirsty baby killers". BUT Japanese doctrine was abominable during WW2. Atrocities were the norm.

The difference between Nanking & My Lai is that the latter was a national disgrace condemned on the front page of all our newspapers; with the perpetrators punished. OTOH, the "beheading" competition in Nanking was a sporting event. We punish rapists, the Japs had "comfort" women. Imperial Japan and the US are not moral equivalents.



Enjoy enshrouding yourself with hatred. I'm moving on.

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Post #: 67
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 5:33:54 AM   
Doggie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KG Erwin

What I'm seeing in this thread is evidence of vicious racial stereotyping, which unfortunately still exists.


Yeah, me too. It's amazing the mental gymnastics some people will engage in to justify their hatred of Americans. Like characterizing the sacrifices of millions of young Americans as a genocidal race war against the poor innocent Japanese.

Of course somebody from Sweden would have no reference of the experiences of veterans of the war against Japan, as they did not participate. Everyone in America knows someone who did participate, and the fact they insist on telling the truth about their experiences with the peace loving Japanese does not make them liars and racists.

quote:

What I'm seeing above is evidence of ignorance. And the inevitable call by "Gunny" for a lock up.


Business as usual.

quote:

I honestly don't remember "Letters" showing the Marines in a negative light


Well, there was that nice Japanese soldier who got crisp fried to crackly crunch by a flamethrower. Then there was the other nice Japanese soldiers who ran away and surrendered, only to be shot dead by the evil racist marines. Compare to the compassionate treatment afforded to the wounded marine by the nice Japanese officer who wanted to talk about live back in the states. People who live in Sweden know that the Japanese always provided first rate medical care to their prisoners.


quote:

Ignorance of what? Are you telling me that the Japanese ARE all bloodthirsty baby killers? How about our allies the Russians? They are all vodka-swilling automatons?


Yes, we're telling you the Japanese were bloodthirsty baby killers. It's a historical fact witnessed by tens of thousands of people who experienced their compassion first hand. Now a days they wouldn't hurt a fly. Curtiss Lemay did a lot toward gentling them down and making them downright reasonable.


The Russians weren't exactly candidates for the Nobel Peace Prise either, as they literally raped almost every women in Eastern Europe, including their own prisoners of war, in addition to butchering millions of other people. Beg pardon, given the current political climate in Sweden, that would make them front runners fot the Nobel Peace Prize, wouldn't it? Along with Yassar Arafat and the UN. The United States armed forces have never been nominated for a Nobel Peace Prize, even though they have done more to further the cause of world peace than all the panty wetting pacifists put together.




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Post #: 68
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 2:16:08 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
Thank you. And I never even went to law school.

No sh1t?

quote:


Nothing of subtance other than a documented history of savagry and sadism that would put Attilla the Hun to shame. "Substance" would be taking a the rare examples of criminal activity on the part of a few individual American soldiers and comparing it to the institutional barbarism that was standard operating procedure with the Japanese armed forces.


Well, all nations armies have documented history of savagry and sadism. Just look at the Sand Creek massacre, or the Trail of Tears...

Sure there were instiutionalised barbarism in Japan, Germany and Russia during ww2. Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in Italy and Great Britain in the pre-war years. Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.

Now, try to understand this. Guilt is always individual, never collective. That means that the Japanese soldier who saved the life of the US soldier in the minefield is not as guilty as the one who raped fifty women in Nanking and then stabbed them to death with his bayonet...just because they are both Japanese.

The SS man who tortured and butchered thousands of jews in the concentration camp is more guilty than the luftwaffe pilot who spent the entire war flying nightfighters over Germany. The US soldier who fought on Okinawa and never shot a POW is not as guilty as the one who raped and butchered his way through that village in Vietnam...etc etc.

What you bring to this discussion is nothing but racism, stereotypes, and blanket accusations of entire ethnic groups being murderous, brutal stinking savages. Racism is something that almost always comes hand in hand with lack of intelligence. I dont know why that is, but probably it has something to do with feelings of inferiority, the need to hack on others to feel superior, perhaps a genuine lack of understanding. It is very very rare to see an intelligent man who also is a racist. Why? Because intelligent people usually understands that all people are individuals, all are different, and blanket generalizations are pointless waste of time.

< Message edited by Panzerjaeger Hortlund -- 11/20/2007 2:17:26 PM >


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Post #: 69
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 3:07:32 PM   
Sarge


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Just as there were institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess? The first two are Germany and Japan...care to guess the third? Oh but surely thats not barbarism...I mean, putting people in camps just because of their ethnicity. Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave.


So you cant make the distinction between the German and Japans concentration camps of WWII and the “Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave“.

Truly a scary point of view, speaks volumes on your mindset

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Post #: 70
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 4:09:17 PM   
JudgeDredd


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Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Do yourself a favour and hit the little green button.

With it comes peace of mind and relative calm. They'll get bored and move onto someone else, eventually meeting the green button wherever they go and they'll just turn on each other.


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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 5:03:01 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
So you cant make the distinction between the German and Japans concentration camps of WWII and the “Good old freedom loving US of A, land of the free, home of the brave“.

Truly a scary point of view, speaks volumes on your mindset


Of cource I can make a distinction between German, US and Japanese concentration camps. Do you know the difference between a concentration camp and an extermination camp btw? Judging from your hysteria it seems unlikely.

Leaving all that aside, what I said was that there were only three nations that put people into concentration camps based on ethnicity. Russians also had concentration camps, but they never used ethnicity as a qualifier for deciding who goes to those camps.

I find it rather amusing however, is that you dont really seem to know how to respond to that little fact...that the US put people in concentration camps...so instead you try to go for another strawman combined with fake outrage.

< Message edited by Panzerjaeger Hortlund -- 11/20/2007 5:04:24 PM >


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In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 72
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 6:52:12 PM   
Doggie


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quote:

is that you dont really seem to know how to respond to that little fact...that the US put people in concentration camps...so instead you try to go for another strawman combined with fake outrage.


This from the author of "You're a racist!!! You're all racists!! And look what you did to the poor Indians!!!" when it's obvious you know nothing of the subject on which you wish to enlignten us about.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 7:15:50 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
This from the author of "You're a racist!!! You're all racists!! And look what you did to the poor Indians!!!" when it's obvious you know nothing of the subject on which you wish to enlignten us about.

But you are a racist doggie. You were in here just a few posts ago telling us how all japanese soldiers were savage smelly bastards. No individual exceptions..all of them. That is a stereotype, a racist one at that.

And yes, look at what the US did to the native americans. Try to translate the behavior of the US govt and US army vs native americans in the 19th century to modern conditions, and the ethnical cleansings in Bosnia would pale in comparrison. No comment on that either huh? I wonder howcome.

You know doggie, I cant help but notice that you havent actually said anything in your recent posts. I wonder why that is.
I have explained why you cannot assign guilt on a collective basis, you reply with an ad hom. I have explained how the US has some very questionable actions in its past and I have asked you where we would end up if we were to do a broad generalizing stereotype of all Americans based on the behavior of the US army vs native americans, you reply with...nothing.

I dont know what sort of discussions you are used to, but it doesnt quite cut it to just come barging in parading horribly racist stereotypes, and when questioned on those racist stereotypes immideately turn to various variants of "you are stupid"-ad homs. All that does, doggie, is tell us all that you really dont know how to respond.

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In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 74
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 8:06:45 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Now, try to understand this. Guilt is always individual, never collective. That means that the Japanese soldier who saved the life of the US soldier in the minefield is not as guilty as the one who raped fifty women in Nanking and then stabbed them to death with his bayonet...just because they are both Japanese.


You keep repeating this and it's false. Morally there is definitely collective guilt. Germans that turned a blind eye to the death camps are guilty without ever having slaughtered anyone. Even legally, people are found guilty of crimes they didn't personally commit. If someone runs from the police and in the course of the chase the police kill an innocent bystander, the fugitive is charged with manslaugher/murder. Even if there was no crime committed to start the chain of events. Just a couple of examples. You may believe there is only individual guilt, but many others believe differently. And they've got precedent to back up their belief.

Overwhelmingly the Japs during WW2 behaved horribly. Those that didn't commit atrocities by and large undoubtedly witnessed them - only the freshest conscripts could have remained innocent. You being such a proud lawyer, it's understandable why you're hung up on technicalities. But there is a point, and the Japs of WW2 went well past it, that a group earns a blanket label. For instance, you often hear negative comments about lawyers. Yet there obviously must be a couple of decent ones somewhere.

Also, you seem to be able to assign collective guilt to the US without much difficulty. Comparing US internment camps to Axis camps - then weakly saying "not the death camps". Nice bait & switch. You even bring up the plight of the Indians. Although you seem to not realize/understand that it was Europeans that did 90% of the job on them. So that collective guilt assignment falls partially back on you.

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RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 8:40:35 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428
You keep repeating this and it's false. Morally there is definitely collective guilt. Germans that turned a blind eye to the death camps are guilty without ever having slaughtered anyone. Even legally, people are found guilty of crimes they didn't personally commit. If someone runs from the police and in the course of the chase the police kill an innocent bystander, the fugitive is charged with manslaugher/murder. Even if there was no crime committed to start the chain of events. Just a couple of examples. You may believe there is only individual guilt, but many others believe differently. And they've got precedent to back up their belief.


Lets look at this one step at a time. First you say that there is collective guilt, that it is false to say that guilt is always individual. After that you go on to prove your point... but here something odd happens. To prove your point that guilt is not always individual, you list of examples where we are examining the individuals, their actions or inactions, and then based on that examination...of the individuals...we determine guilt or not.

For your theory to work, for guilt to be collective, you would have to show an example where the court has sentenced someone to something, without having tried that person individually. You will not succeed in that endeavor. You would need to dig up an example of where someone is guilty because, and only because, that someone is part of a group, and we have decided that all members of this group is guilty of something.

You will never find such reasoning or arguments like that in any legal proceedings. You claim that morally we can assign guilt based on collective, but the same applies there. Even if you want to claim that someone is guilty of something because of action or inaction, you are making an individual analysis of that individual.


quote:


Overwhelmingly the Japs during WW2 behaved horribly. Those that didn't commit atrocities by and large undoubtedly witnessed them - only the freshest conscripts could have remained innocent. You being such a proud lawyer, it's understandable why you're hung up on technicalities. But there is a point, and the Japs of WW2 went well past it, that a group earns a blanket label. For instance, you often hear negative comments about lawyers. Yet there obviously must be a couple of decent ones somewhere.


Same here. By saying that those who didnt commit/witness atrocities are guilty, you have made that individual trial of guilt. For your reasoning to work, you would need to skip that step.

quote:


Also, you seem to be able to assign collective guilt to the US without much difficulty. Comparing US internment camps to Axis camps - then weakly saying "not the death camps". Nice bait & switch. You even bring up the plight of the Indians. Although you seem to not realize/understand that it was Europeans that did 90% of the job on them. So that collective guilt assignment falls partially back on you.


Nah, I am holding up the US camps as an example on why you should never try to assign guilt collectively...it will lead you to all the wrong conclusions. Somehow you seem to be missing that point.

And if you think my "difference between concentration camps and extermination camps"-argument is weak, then by God take a look at your "it was not americans who did that...it was europeans (emigrated to america)".

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In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 76
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 9:21:31 PM   
mjk428

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Lets look at this one step at a time. First you say that there is collective guilt, that it is false to say that guilt is always individual. After that you go on to prove your point... but here something odd happens. To prove your point that guilt is not always individual, you list of examples where we are examining the individuals, their actions or inactions, and then based on that examination...of the individuals...we determine guilt or not.

For your theory to work, for guilt to be collective, you would have to show an example where the court has sentenced someone to something, without having tried that person individually. You will not succeed in that endeavor. You would need to dig up an example of where someone is guilty because, and only because, that someone is part of a group, and we have decided that all members of this group is guilty of something.

You will never find such reasoning or arguments like that in any legal proceedings. You claim that morally we can assign guilt based on collective, but the same applies there. Even if you want to claim that someone is guilty of something because of action or inaction, you are making an individual analysis of that individual.


The only point being that your statement "there is only individual guilt" is a belief of yours, not a fact. Legally, you're mostly correct. But even there, it's not so black & white. Morally, which is all that this discussion has ever been about, collective guilt is a time honored tradition. You may believe it's wrong, and I might agree that frequently it's applied undeservedly - that still doesn't make your statement true. It's a belief you have that not everyone shares. Just ask the citizens of Sodom & Gomorrah - oh wait, you can't.


quote:


Same here. By saying that those who didnt commit/witness atrocities are guilty, you have made that individual trial of guilt. For your reasoning to work, you would need to skip that step.


But that wasn't my point. The point was that when a group's behavior is so abysmal and becomes so prevalent all members of that group will "suffer" the consequences of a negative label. By and large Catholic priests harm no one, yet the horrible behavior of a distinct minority has tarnished the image of all of them. If someone on this forum were to make a negative statemnet about priests would you rise to defend priests and call the that person a bigot? I somehow doubt it. Yet you feel compelled to defend the mythical "good" Japanese soldier even when they were clearly a distinct minority.

quote:


And if you think my "difference between concentration camps and extermination camps"-argument is weak, then by God take a look at your "it was not americans who did that...it was europeans (emigrated to america)".


I guess you could call Cortez an immigrant but I would label him a European myself. I was talking about those fresh off the boat, which accounted for the overwhelming majority of Native American deaths. By the time the US had won independence, 90%+ were already gone. Now my sympathies certainly are with the Native American people, not that they necessarily want them. They were treated horribly but they also did their fair share of horrible deeds. It just doesn't compare to mass slaughter of millions of the defenseless in just a few years.


< Message edited by mjk428 -- 11/20/2007 9:23:12 PM >


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Post #: 77
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 9:26:39 PM   
Doggie


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We do have some stereotypes at work here. First is the smug, self rightous, sanctimonous Swede who asserts his moral superiority based on the fact his country has accomplished nothing for the past 600 years. "Harumphh. We intellectuals in Sweden did not debase ourselves by taking part in the unpleasantness of the 1940's. We simply provided the locomotives and rolling stock for the Wehrmacht and tranported them through "neutral" **snicker** Sweden so they could invade Norway. And we made a pile of Kroner selling war material to the nazis. But we didn't bomb anyone." Genuflect to us, oh ye inferior subhumans"

Sounds to me there's some individual guilt that should be assigned to 'neutrals" who bankrolled Nazi genocide without getting their hands dirty.

Then we got the typical liberal European college boy Pavolovian response of labeling anyone who does not recogize his obvious genetic and intellectual superiority as a "racist". That's not to mention the blatent hypocrisy of whining about "adhoms" from the stupid, racist, untermensch who are too ingorant to know how inferior they are.

Then we get the usual "irrelevant strawman" characterization from an "intellectual" who can not defend his original thesis and resorts to firing blunderbuss blasts about American internment camps, the American Indian wars, and how much Americans just suck in general, which is always what it's about, isn't it?

Not content to rest on your complete ignorance of the disgracefull conduct of the Imperial Japanese armed forces, you then compound you embarrassment by displaying even further ignorance of the history of North American Indian Wars, and the fact that all nations in world war II operated internment camps, including morally superior Sweden. I suppose it would be too much to ask for a know it all to research some of the some subjects of his expertise and discover that only the Japanese who lived near west coast defense plants were interned, along with thousands of Germans and Italians, and none of them wound up shoveled in mass graves like the guests of the Emporer.

It's also enlightening to learn that the Japanese qualify as a "race". I suppose the millions of Phillipinos, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese and other Asians who were allied with the Anglo American warmongers were also ignorant racists who did not appreciate how well they were treated by the benevolent Japanese.

quote:

But you are a racist doggie.


And you are an sanctomious, self rightous, elitist bigot. You jump on the "racist" bandwagon to legimatize your proclamations of moral superority and your contempt towards anyone who will not bow to your bigoted, revisionist version of world history. Here's a news flash, "Panzerjaeger", you aint a member of the master race. You are superior to no one.

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Post #: 78
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 9:34:18 PM   
Hortlund


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428
The only point being that your statement "there is only individual guilt" is a belief of yours, not a fact. Legally, you're mostly correct. But even there, it's not so black & white. Morally, which is all that this discussion has ever been about, collective guilt is a time honored tradition.

Not really, at least not in the western civilization. As long as we have had a moral based on Christian values, we have had the fundamental idea that each man is responsible for his own actions. This is something at the very heart of Christianity. Jesus says "choose", which means that the individual has a choise, and will be judged based on his actions and his choises.
quote:


You may believe it's wrong, and I might agree that frequently it's applied undeservedly - that still doesn't make your statement true. It's a belief you have that not everyone shares. Just ask the citizens of Sodom & Gomorrah - oh wait, you can't.

That is the best example you can come up with regarding collective guilt? Why not the flood?

There is one example of collective guilt from the 20th century, so you need not look so far back in time. However that example of collective guilt has been horribly critizised by pretty much everyone on both legal and moral grounds. If you think/read/google for a while, then maybe you can come up with the example I have in mind. Who knows.

quote:


But that wasn't my point. The point was that when a group's behavior is so abysmal and becomes so prevalent all members of that group will "suffer" the consequences of a negative label. By and large Catholic priests harm no one, yet the horrible behavior of a distinct minority has tarnished the image of all of them. If someone on this forum were to make a negative statemnet about priests would you rise to defend priests and call the that person a bigot? I somehow doubt it. Yet you feel compelled to defend the mythical "good" Japanese soldier even when they were clearly a distinct minority.

Of cource I would critizise anyone trying to tarnish a group of people with the collective guilt-brush. I would object to that regardless of whether the accused were japanese soldiers, catholic priests, moslem fundamentalists, rwandan militia, or whatever.


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Post #: 79
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 9:51:17 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
We do have some stereotypes at work here. First is the smug, self rightous, sanctimonous Swede who asserts his moral superiority based on the fact his country has accomplished nothing for the past 600 years. "Harumphh. We intellectuals in Sweden did not debase ourselves by taking part in the unpleasantness of the 1940's. We simply provided the locomotives and rolling stock for the Wehrmacht and tranported them through "neutral" **snicker** Sweden so they could invade Norway. And we made a pile of Kroner selling war material to the nazis. But we didn't bomb anyone." Genuflect to us, oh ye inferior subhumans"

Sounds to me there's some individual guilt that should be assigned to 'neutrals" who bankrolled Nazi genocide without getting their hands dirty.

Then we got the typical liberal European college boy Pavolovian response of labeling anyone who does not recogize his obvious genetic and intellectual superiority as a "racist". That's not to mention the blatent hypocrisy of whining about "adhoms" from the stupid, racist, untermensch who are too ingorant to know how inferior they are.

Then we get the usual "irrelevant strawman" characterization from an "intellectual" who can not defend his original thesis and resorts to firing blunderbuss blasts about American internment camps, the American Indian wars, and how much Americans just suck in general, which is always what it's about, isn't it?


Wow...lots of text about nothing. Does it feel better now? Feel free to keep dancing around the real issues and questions and keep posting pointless drivel.
quote:


Not content to rest on your complete ignorance of the disgracefull conduct of the Imperial Japanese armed forces, you then compound you embarrassment by displaying even further ignorance of the history of North American Indian Wars, and the fact that all nations in world war II operated internment camps, including morally superior Sweden. I suppose it would be too much to ask for a know it all to research some of the some subjects of his expertise and discover that only the Japanese who lived near west coast defense plants were interned, along with thousands of Germans and Italians, and none of them wound up shoveled in mass graves like the guests of the Emporer.


LOL where do you come up with this stuff? Source please.

quote:


It's also enlightening to learn that the Japanese qualify as a "race". I suppose the millions of Phillipinos, Chinese, Koreans, Vietnamese and other Asians who were allied with the Anglo American warmongers were also ignorant racists who did not appreciate how well they were treated by the benevolent Japanese.

And here I was thinking I was talking about an ethnicity.

quote:


And you are an sanctomious, self rightous, elitist bigot. You jump on the "racist" bandwagon to legimatize your proclamations of moral superority and your contempt towards anyone who will not bow to your bigoted, revisionist version of world history. Here's a news flash, "Panzerjaeger", you aint a member of the master race. You are superior to no one.


Nah, the reason I call you racist is because you have posted racist opinions. Then you call me bigoted? Priceless.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 80
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 9:56:06 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Not really, at least not in the western civilization. As long as we have had a moral based on Christian values, we have had the fundamental idea that each man is responsible for his own actions. This is something at the very heart of Christianity. Jesus says "choose", which means that the individual has a choise, and will be judged based on his actions and his choises.


This isn't a legal proceeding nor is anyone's soul being judged. People make judgements all the time. I can make blanket statements against anyone I want. If I want to hate baseball players, I have that right. The judgements made in this thread were against a very specific group that in no way represents a race. The statements didn't even condemn an entire country - if you read the surrounding statements - and certainly not modern Japan. The judgement was on a group that earned their judgement by their actions. They even wore uniforms to identify themselves. That group also no longer exists. Yet you're outraged to the point of making personal attacks to defend the individuals of that historical group of thugs.

quote:


That is the best example you can come up with regarding collective guilt? Why not the flood?


Not the best example, just the example I chose.

quote:

There is one example of collective guilt from the 20th century, so you need not look so far back in time. However that example of collective guilt has been horribly critizised by pretty much everyone on both legal and moral grounds. If you think/read/google for a while, then maybe you can come up with the example I have in mind. Who knows.


Wow. Then I guess there is collective guilt afterall. Just because you think it wrong doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thanks for conceding the point. That was big of you!

quote:


Of cource I would critizise anyone trying to tarnish a group of people with the collective guilt-brush. I would object to that regardless of whether the accused were japanese soldiers, catholic priests, moslem fundamentalists, rwandan militia, or whatever.


And yet you've had no trouble slinging mud at the US throughout this thread.

< Message edited by mjk428 -- 11/20/2007 9:59:07 PM >


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Post #: 81
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 10:10:50 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428
This isn't a legal proceeding nor is anyone's soul being judged. People make judgements all the time. I can make blanket statements against anyone I want. If I want to hate baseball players, I have that right. The judgements made in this thread were against a very specific group that in no way represents a race. The statements didn't even condemn an entire country - if you read the surrounding statements - and certainly not modern Japan. The judgement was on a group that earned their judgement by their actions. They even wore uniforms to identify themselves. That group also no longer exists. Yet you're outraged to the point of making personal attacks to defend the individuals of that historical group of thugs.

Heh, I say guilt is individual and never collective. I base that on legal tradition in all the major legal traditions, as well as morals, the idea is at the core of the western civilization. It is the basis of our laws, morals, philosophy. All our great thinkers througout the history of our civilization have arrived at the same point of view.

Against that we have you...a random internet poster. You claim that I am wrong, that guilt is not individual but collective. Your basis for this statement is "because I say so".

When I object to racial predjudice (All japanese were savages who smelled) you interpret that to be a defence of wrongdoings. Now, here is where you fail. You seem to fail to understand that it is possible to object to a behavior (racism by doggie) without expressing sympathy for, condoning or defending the warcrimes committed by members of the ethnical group he attacks.

And, of cource, you yourself have now jumped on the same bandwaggon. They (being "the japanese armed forces" presumably) earned his racism. Here you make the same logical fallacy, taking the actions of some, and using them to judge everyone, regardless of individual actions or inactions.

quote:


Wow. Then I guess there is collective guilt afterall. Just because you think it wrong doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Thanks for conceding the point. That was big of you!

Two things can be deducted from this reply of yours
a) you did not understand what I was saying,
b) you have no idea what example I was talking about

quote:


And yet you've had no trouble slinging mud at the US throughout this thread.

I have given examples of wrongdoings committed by the US. At no point in time have I ever tried to use these examples to make broad generalizations about all americans. Again it would seem that you dont really know what this discussion is about.

< Message edited by Panzerjaeger Hortlund -- 11/20/2007 10:15:14 PM >


_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

(in reply to mjk428)
Post #: 82
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/20/2007 10:40:57 PM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
Heh, I say guilt is individual and never collective. I base that on legal tradition in all the major legal traditions, as well as morals, the idea is at the core of the western civilization. It is the basis of our laws, morals, philosophy. All our great thinkers througout the history of our civilization have arrived at the same point of view.

Against that we have you...a random internet poster. You claim that I am wrong, that guilt is not individual but collective. Your basis for this statement is "because I say so".

When I object to racial predjudice (All japanese were savages who smelled) you interpret that to be a defence of wrongdoings. Now, here is where you fail. You seem to fail to understand that it is possible to object to a behavior (racism by doggie) without expressing sympathy for, condoning or defending the warcrimes committed by members of the ethnical group he attacks.

And, of cource, you yourself have now jumped on the same bandwaggon. They (being "the japanese armed forces" presumably) earned his racism. Here you make the same logical fallacy, taking the actions of some, and using them to judge everyone, regardless of individual actions or inactions.


At some point, especially if the group is small enough, it's easy to get most people to agree with a negative stereotype. For instance, all SS members. It's pretty safe to condemn that group in today's world. KKK members? Even better, not many will rise up to defend them.

And I didn't say you defended wrongdoings but you most certainly are defending a group of thugs because there may have been some good apples in the bunch.

The thing you don't seem to understand is that I can judge a group and yet still take the individuals of that group on their own merit. I can simultaneously say that the Imperial Army were a group of thugs and also say that private Hiro of the Imperial Army was a saint among men. All without being a racist.

quote:


Two things can be deducted from this reply of yours
a) you did not understand what I was saying,
b) you have no idea what example I was talking about


Only one thing can be deduced and that is: "Guilt is always individual, never collective" is a belief of yours and not a statement of fact.


quote:


I have given examples of wrongdoings committed by the US. At no point in time have I ever tried to use these examples to make broad generalizations about all americans. Again it would seem that you dont really know what this discussion is about.


So we can make all the negative comments about anything we want in blissful ignorance as long as we don't make broad generalizations against a specific PC protected group. Clear as mud.


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Post #: 83
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/21/2007 3:26:06 AM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Of cource I can make a distinction between German, US and Japanese concentration camps. Do you know the difference between a concentration camp and an extermination camp btw? Judging from your hysteria it seems unlikely.


Nice try suit

But when you put the US in the category as Germany and Japan concentration camps you bait a reply.

Again you express you total lack of a grasp on real history

1) US had Interment camps

2) Germans had a camp for every everyone

3) Japan had camps of extermination of sub human slaves that no longer could work.

You have done nothing but make accusations of racism while expressing a delusional perception at best of what is common historical knowledge for war gamers.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund
institutionalised barbarism in the US in the pre ww1-era as well as during ww2. Who were the only three nations who set up concentration camps where they put people because of their ethnicity? Any guess?



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Post #: 84
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/21/2007 3:53:25 AM   
Doggie


Posts: 3244
Joined: 9/19/2001
From: Under the porch
Status: offline
quote:

Wow...lots of text about nothing. Does it feel better now? Feel free to keep dancing around the real issues and questions and keep posting pointless drivel.


Hmmm, I believe it was you who couldn't defend his position about what swell guys the Japanese were and started dancing around slinging mud in all directions.

But I can see where you might think people who actually accomplished something, like liberating the Phillipines from mass murdering rapists in Japanese uniforms, are morally inferior to people who make their living chasing ambulances.

quote:

All without being a racist.


Well of course, proud specimen of Aryan superiority that you are. And a graduate of law school as well. Perfectly qualified to sit in judgement of a mongrel race such as Americans. It's all that pure white bread blue eyed blonde blood flowing through your veins that makes you superior to us untermensch, aint it?

quote:

At some point, especially if the group is small enough, it's easy to get most people to agree with a negative stereotype. For instance, all SS members. It's pretty safe to condemn that group in today's world. KKK members? Even better, not many will rise up to defend them.


But you will. Never met a socialist yet that didn't adore mass murdering thugs. Bet ya got a paki scarf and a poster of Yassar Arafat up in your den to show your solidarity with the poor and oppressed.

And with a pedigree too, no doubt. "What did you do during the war, Uncle Sven?" "Well, yumpin' yimmney, by gar, I helped the Nazis invade the rest of Europe but I never stooped so low as to slander the poor innocent Jpanese with racist comments about their brutality

quote:

Thrice weekly Nazi troops avoid the dangers of coastal sea transport by traveling overland through Sweden from Storlien farther north to Riksgränsen. But most galling of all are the two "Reichswehr special" trains, sealed and guarded by Swedish soldiers, packed each day with 1,000 German troops being relieved at Oslo and replaced by fresh troops from Germany. The sight of well-fed Germans hanging out of train windows, yoohooing at Swedish girls, and carrying packages of food, butter and herrings out of starving Oslo is almost too much to stomach. So much public pressure has built up that a secret session of the Riksdag last week was reported to have considered means of ending the traffic. That problem was the key to the diplomacy by which Sweden has survived so far: by judging when to make concessions—willingly to the Allies,* under pressure to the Germans.



Hey, with a proud history of sniveling and groveling such as that, it's no wonder you see yourself as a member of the master race, morally and intellectually superior to those stupid racist marines on Iwo Jima.

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Post #: 85
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/21/2007 10:51:50 AM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
Nice try suit

But when you put the US in the category as Germany and Japan concentration camps you bait a reply.

Again you express you total lack of a grasp on real history

1) US had Interment camps

2) Germans had a camp for every everyone

3) Japan had camps of extermination of sub human slaves that no longer could work.

You have done nothing but make accusations of racism while expressing a delusional perception at best of what is common historical knowledge for war gamers.


The US had internment camps, yes. Where people of a certain ethnicity was put. The only two other nations who had camps where they put people because of their ethnicity was Japan and Germany. There the similarities end. But the fact that the similarities end there does not change the fact that putting people in internment camps because of their ethnicity is bad.

Accusations of racism..well, he is a racist. Pointing that out is not really as much of an accusation as a statement of fact. And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 86
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/21/2007 11:11:32 AM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doggie
Hmmm, I believe it was you who couldn't defend his position about what swell guys the Japanese were and started dancing around slinging mud in all directions.


Actually, what I have done is say that it is wrong to stereotype all japanese and say that all were stinking savage bastards who deserved to be excecuted and "strafed in lifeboats". That is not the same thing as saying that all japanese were swell guys.

The fact that you are unable to understand the difference between those two speaks volumes about you.

quote:


But I can see where you might think people who actually accomplished something, like liberating the Phillipines from mass murdering rapists in Japanese uniforms, are morally inferior to people who make their living chasing ambulances.


Actually, it is quite possible to think that its a great thing that lots of nations were liberated from opressive occupiers during the latter stages of world war two AND that it is wrong to stereotype all people of a certain ethnicity and call for their death. Those two are not mutually exclusive...no matter how much you want to paint them up to be.

quote:


Well of course, proud specimen of Aryan superiority that you are. And a graduate of law school as well. Perfectly qualified to sit in judgement of a mongrel race such as Americans. It's all that pure white bread blue eyed blonde blood flowing through your veins that makes you superior to us untermensch, aint it?


The only one who has been talking about superiority and race in this thread is you. Ever wonder why that is? And what american race? There is no such thing.


quote:

But you will. Never met a socialist yet that didn't adore mass murdering thugs. Bet ya got a paki scarf and a poster of Yassar Arafat up in your den to show your solidarity with the poor and oppressed.


Ah, but Im not a socialist. Here is where your stereotyping leads you off in the wrong direction again. You assume that because I am Swedish, and because I dont think that all members of various ethnic groups should be killed, I must be a socialist...or at least a bleeding hearts liberal. Im a conservative Christian. I dont know what you call yourself? Red-neck? Nah, that cant be, they tend to be Christians too.

quote:

Thrice weekly Nazi troops blah blah.

Hey, with a proud history of sniveling and groveling such as that, it's no wonder you see yourself as a member of the master race, morally and intellectually superior to those stupid racist marines on Iwo Jima.


Strawman. Doesnt work.

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 87
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/21/2007 3:18:00 PM   
Sarge


Posts: 2841
Joined: 3/1/2003
From: ask doggie
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Accusations of racism..well, he is a racist. Pointing that out is not really as much of an accusation as a statement of fact. And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.


Ok then, link up this untold story of Japanese troops showing compassion for POW’s ,or any story for that matter showing Japanese troops in WWII expressing companion towards the sub-human Allies.


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Post #: 88
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/21/2007 5:16:59 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline
quote:

Quote Doggie
...Bet ya got a paki scarf...

I find that offensive and you are an imbicile

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Post #: 89
RE: Letters from Iwo Jima - 11/21/2007 5:26:05 PM   
Hortlund


Posts: 2884
Joined: 10/13/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Panzerjaeger Hortlund

Accusations of racism..well, he is a racist. Pointing that out is not really as much of an accusation as a statement of fact. And no, there is no "common knowledge" among wargamers that all japanese soldiers without exception were savage beasts that smelled bad.


Ok then, link up this untold story of Japanese troops showing compassion for POW’s ,or any story for that matter showing Japanese troops in WWII expressing companion towards the sub-human Allies.




I've already told you about the story of the Japanese soldier who saved the life of the US soldier injured in the minefield.

Now, you expain something to me...

Take the example of third gunners mate Asashi, 22 years old, who went down with the Yamato. Conscripted in 1942, sent to naval school in Osaka for training, and then posted to the Yamato in 1943. He sailed with the Yamato until she was sunk in 1945. He never shot anyone, he never raped anyone, he never did anything.

If doggie had his way, the Asashi should be "strafed in his lifeboat" after the sinking of the Yamato. What on earth had he done that would make him deserve such a fate?

_____________________________

The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close.
In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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Post #: 90
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