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Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/6/2007 7:01:47 PM   
Radu

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		Hi everyone,this is my first post here, and I've decided to make it a constructive one.

I've been trying my hand at scenario editing, got a hold of the basics, and I've decided to make a 'playable' one.Though the idea behind it may not be 'playable' itself.

It is a hypothetical Romania vs USA scenario.

Now the thing is,I did my research regarding what US units are tasked to interviene in case of a (South-Eastern) European emergency,however this only served to complicate things, with some units having participated in the initial invasion and/or doing tours in Iraq.

A second note would be that the hypothetical context is such that Romania has gone wild in a bigger context of US already being involved in a major war (like Iraq blowing up in open rebellion after Iran is attacked, war in the Koreas or Taiwan,Pakistan going radical,or any such combination) with most major active US combat units being redeployed elsewhere,specifically the 1st Infantry Div and the 1st Armd Div and the V Corps which,from my understanding, are assigned to the US European Command.

So my question is this, with the 1st ID, 1st AD and V Corps involved in a major war and unavailable in this context,what units would be available for an emergency such as a NATO state going rogue?

So far I've been able to pin down the 173rd BCT (Airborne) as a definite most likely .But what about the II MEF? Would they be available? From what I could find,the 2nd Marine Div is heavily involved in Iraq and would probably be called upon to help in the case of a war with Iran.

What about the National Guard units (1 Inf Div,1 Inf Bde. and 1 Cav Bde. from what I found) attached to the European Command? Would they be deployed/deployable within 1 week of the crisis or so?

Of course,there is the question about what USAF assests would the US be able to spare in this context,but that is another matter.

So,if anyone (preferably knowledgeable ) would like to put in their 2 cents regarding the OOB of a possible US task force in this fictional context, I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance, Radu.
Post #: 1
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/7/2007 12:02:49 AM   
JAMiAM

 

Posts: 6165
Joined: 2/8/2004
Status: offline 		No help for your scenario, but here's a great, big WELCOME to the forums.

(in reply to Radu)
Post #: 2
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/7/2007 2:17:28 PM   
Trick37_MatrixForum


Posts: 172
Joined: 8/10/2007
From: My mama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Radu

Hi everyone,this is my first post here, and I've decided to make it a constructive one.

I've been trying my hand at scenario editing, got a hold of the basics, and I've decided to make a 'playable' one.Though the idea behind it may not be 'playable' itself.

It is a hypothetical Romania vs USA scenario.

Now the thing is, I did my research regarding what US units are tasked to intervene in case of a (South-Eastern) European emergency, however this only served to complicate things, with some units having participated in the initial invasion and/or doing tours in Iraq.

A second note would be that the hypothetical context is such that Romania has gone wild in a bigger context of US already being involved in a major war (like Iraq blowing up in open rebellion after Iran is attacked, war in the Koreas or Taiwan, Pakistan going radical, or any such combination) with most major active US combat units being redeployed elsewhere, specifically the 1st Infantry Div and the 1st Armd Div and the V Corps which, from my understanding, are assigned to the US European Command.


The 1st Infantry division (minus the 2nd Brigade, which stayed in Germany) returned to Fort Riley in September 2006. The 2nd Brigade is set to return in the 2010/2011 time-frame. In addition, a brigade of the 1st Armored Division was already sent back to the States to re-form in the Division’s new location (Fort Bliss, Texas). The DIV HQ is still in Wiesbaden, and it’s slated (along with the brigade in Baumholder) to return in the 2012 time-frame. That would leave support units, and the 2nd Cav Stryker Regiment (CSR) in Germany at the time, and the 173rd Airborne would be in Italy. (Note that there may be a stopping of the draw-down coming, thus leaving those units here longer).

In the absolute last resort, and if it came down to winning a fight or losing it, units would be re-deployed from Iraq and Afghanistan to fight elsewhere. They would be replaced with either units from those countries, and/or with forces from other friendly nations that wouldn’t be partaking in the other fight that we needed to respond to.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Radu
So my question is this, with the 1st ID, 1st AD and V Corps involved in a major war and unavailable in this context, what units would be available for an emergency such as a NATO state going rogue?

So far I've been able to pin down the 173rd BCT (Airborne) as a definite most likely .But what about the II MEF? Would they be available? From what I could find, the 2nd Marine Div is heavily involved in Iraq and would probably be called upon to help in the case of a war with Iran.


If the balloon really went up, and **** hit the fan (regardless of where it happened in the world), ALL units not currently deployed would be available….active, reserves and Guard of all branches of the military. The only question would be the needed training, equipment and vehicle replenishment, and the assigning of troops to bring the units to their combat strength. This would determine when these units would be “ready” to deploy (they would’ve already been “available,” and would go earlier if needed).


quote:

ORIGINAL: Radu
What about the National Guard units (1 Inf Div, 1 Inf Bde. and 1 Cav Bde. from what I found) attached to the European Command? Would they be deployed/deployable within 1 week of the crisis or so?


The 1 Inf Div, 1 BDE and 1 CAV BDE are not National Guard units. And yes, they’d be deployable if they weren’t already deployed.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Radu
Of course,there is the question about what USAF assests would the US be able to spare in this context,but that is another matter.

So,if anyone (preferably knowledgeable ) would like to put in their 2 cents regarding the OOB of a possible US task force in this fictional context, I would appreciate it.

Thanks in advance, Radu.


The best way to know what units the Army has is to go to www.army.mil. For the National Guard and Reserve units, there are links on that site for them.




_____________________________


(in reply to Radu)
Post #: 3
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/7/2007 3:05:25 PM   
Radu

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		Thank you both for the warm welcome and for the info.

First thing's first,I want to correct a misunderstanding. What I meant when I mentioned the Inf Div, Inf and Cav Bde was that there was *one* National Guard Inf Div (not the 1st Inf Div which indeed isn't Nat Gd) attached to V Corps, namely the 35th Infantry Division (Kansas National Guard), along with the 256th Inf Bde. (Louisiana NG) and the 278th Armd Cav Rgt. (Tennessee NG).

Thus my question about the readiness of National Guard units.Namely, how much slower (I imagine) they arrive on the field as compared to, say, a Marine Division, or other such 'firebrigade' divisions.

Indeed,I had been juggling around with various OOB combinations that involved the 173rd, the 2nd Stryker Rgt. and the aforementioned NG units.I was reluctant to mention units as I wanted at least one 'clean','cold' second opinion. So many sub-units deployed in Iraq,rotating can be quite dizzying.

The discussion is however by no means closed, and anyone that feels that something should be added,changed or just the current unit line-up further confirmed, you are welcome to reply,wether it concerns involved army,marine or air force units.

Radu.

(in reply to Trick37_MatrixForum)
Post #: 4
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/9/2007 9:03:54 AM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline 		Any particular reason we're attacking Rumania?

I was trying to work this out, and the only thing I could think of was for the oil. You've got oil! And after all, all our wars are for oil. We fought in Vietnam for the oil, and we invaded Iraq for the oil. We probably even invaded Mexico 'for the oil' in 1846 -- we were just prescient. If it's got oil, and we happen to invade it, it's 'for the oil' -- that's an established historical fact.

Anyway, I would think the size of the force would depend on what we're trying to do. Force Rumania to give up something we feel she's not entitled to? Make her into a 'secular democracy' -- or if that doesn't bother you, make you into something that does bother you? What? Do we want to terra-form Rumania or just encourage her to see things our way over some issue?



_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Radu)
Post #: 5
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/9/2007 1:21:17 PM   
Radu

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		Erm, yes... the hypothetical context.

Two things:

1. A major crisis erupts elsewhere (simply to give some playability,dilute the US strenght, as having the US crush Romania in 2 turns would hardly qualify as a scenario) demanding USA's full attention and also a 'Coalition of the Willing'.

2.Romania's govt. is overthrown by a nation-wide uprising due to rampant corruption and replaced by a dictator that wants,among other things,out of NATO (which it views as a US tool)and entanglements in Iraq,Afghanistan and this new hotspot,or hotspots mentioned in 1.

The now exiled govt. flees for Constanta,the major Black Sea port city.

The US,with its shaken foreign presitge, with an Iraq and Afghanistan nowhere near stabilization, takes a serious blow by losing a govt. lineage that,along the years, has constantly but-kissed the US on the foreign stage. Not only that,the former NATO country, once hailed as part of the brave new wave of newly democratic NATO countries ready to infuse the lethargic (hint France,Germany,etc) organization with new life, is a dictatorship,with rumors of ties to Moscow (which are bullshit, but hey, the drowning exile govt. will do anything to get back on the horse).

In a nut shell, the US wants to perform a simple regime change.

P.S. : Nice flame, the 'oil' part, but un-called for.Or rather am I to be branded anti-american by default if I don't sing praises to the red,white, and blue within 5 paragraphs of my introductory post? Didn't see that one as a requirement in the registration form. Frankly, when I see pictures of young Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand I don't much feel like praising the star-spangled banner.More like quote George Orwell. Here's a gem : "We've always been at war with Eastasia".

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 6
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/9/2007 8:03:15 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:


P.S. : Nice flame, the 'oil' part, but un-called for.Or rather am I to be branded anti-american by default if I don't sing praises to the red,white, and blue within 5 paragraphs of my introductory post? Didn't see that one as a requirement in the registration form. Frankly, when I see pictures of young Rumsfeld shaking Saddam's hand I don't much feel like praising the star-spangled banner.More like quote George Orwell. Here's a gem : "We've always been at war with Eastasia".


It wasn't aimed at you: I wasn't even aware you were part of that camp. Anyway, if you want to pursue the argument further, it's a staple over at tdg.


_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Radu)
Post #: 7
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/9/2007 8:08:45 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Radu



In a nut shell, the US wants to perform a simple regime change.


Leaving aside the incipient argument about Iraq, you might get your best results by assuming we tried a Panama-style sudden airborne assault. The scenario opens as it has gone horribly wrong, with the rogue Rumanian regime still in place and Rumanian units having driven US units off the airfields.

Then we have to scramble to rescue them/suitably chastise the errant and now-openly defiant Rumanian regime. We have to scramble because some Rumsfield-esque character has poo-pooed the Pentagon's complaints that it won't be prepared to deal with the situation if things go wrong.


_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Radu)
Post #: 8
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/9/2007 10:17:50 PM   
Radu

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		Ech, I could have sworn that was aimed at me. Ah well, no harm done I guess.

Anyway,back on topic.

I don't think a para-only US OOB would do. (though a debate would be welcome)

The theater of ops is Dobruja. That's the area in SE Romania bordered by:

-East: Black Sea
-West : Danube (the part that swings north)
-North : Danube (as it continues east towards the Black Sea)
-South : Bulgaria

The RO forces starting points are bridgheads over the Danube. (Colin,if you have GoogleEarth I could send you the coordinates.I'm not exactly military educated,so I can't say anything about their logistic feasibility.I would like to keep this scenario within the bounds of reality.Romania vs USA is already out-there enough.)

Now I believe Dobruja is a bit large for the 173rd Abn alone to handle.Also, I would imagine the 101st and 82nd would already be deployed to the crisis pre-dating the Romanian one.

Thus, I would also include the 2nd Cav Rgt to arrive in a couple of turns (I'm thinking half-day/full day turns maybe).

Also some scattered exile gov interior ministry troops or smth to slow the Romanian player down from just racing through the Dobrujan countryside.

Still I feel something's missing. Don't get me wrong, Romania though being in NATO, I'm not so naive as to equate them to US or UK,France,Germany,Italy. But the 173rd and 2nd Cav decimating 2 Mech Bdes,2 Inf Bdes,2 Mtn Bdes and some artillery and recon/para units thrown in for good measure? I feel I should include some serious US oomph to arrive mid-game. I mentioned the 35th Inf NG Div, but I have no idea how soon a Nat Gd formation can be brought to Europe. A week? Two?

The general flow of the game would see the Romanian player make a decision early on. Take his chances, engage the 173rd Abn and 2nd Cav head-on hoping to defeat them at the appropriate costs (troops,time) before delivering the coup de grace in Constanta? Or go for the sudden-death by taking Constanta and 'dealing' with the exile gov?

Radu.

< Message edited by Radu -- 11/9/2007 10:18:34 PM >

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 9
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/9/2007 10:34:34 PM   
ColinWright

 

Posts: 2604
Joined: 10/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Radu

Ech, I could have sworn that was aimed at me. Ah well, no harm done I guess.

Anyway,back on topic.

I don't think a para-only US OOB would do. (though a debate would be welcome)

The theater of ops is Dobruja. That's the area in SE Romania bordered by:

-East: Black Sea
-West : Danube (the part that swings north)
-North : Danube (as it continues east towards the Black Sea)
-South : Bulgaria

The RO forces starting points are bridgheads over the Danube. (Colin,if you have GoogleEarth I could send you the coordinates.I'm not exactly military educated,so I can't say anything about their logistic feasibility.I would like to keep this scenario within the bounds of reality.Romania vs USA is already out-there enough.)

Now I believe Dobruja is a bit large for the 173rd Abn alone to handle.Also, I would imagine the 101st and 82nd would already be deployed to the crisis pre-dating the Romanian one.

Thus, I would also include the 2nd Cav Rgt to arrive in a couple of turns (I'm thinking half-day/full day turns maybe).

Also some scattered exile gov interior ministry troops or smth to slow the Romanian player down from just racing through the Dobrujan countryside.

Still I feel something's missing. Don't get me wrong, Romania though being in NATO, I'm not so naive as to equate them to US or UK,France,Germany,Italy. But the 173rd and 2nd Cav decimating 2 Mech Bdes,2 Inf Bdes,2 Mtn Bdes and some artillery and recon/para units thrown in for good measure? I feel I should include some serious US oomph to arrive mid-game. I mentioned the 35th Inf NG Div, but I have no idea how soon a Nat Gd formation can be brought to Europe. A week? Two?

The general flow of the game would see the Romanian player make a decision early on. Take his chances, engage the 173rd Abn and 2nd Cav head-on hoping to defeat them at the appropriate costs (troops,time) before delivering the coup de grace in Constanta? Or go for the sudden-death by taking Constanta and 'dealing' with the exile gov?

Radu.


Don't forget about our air power. Do we still have B-52's? If so, they confer on us the ability to abruptly decimate the contents of any given hex.

I'm not really very interested or knowledgeable about modern US military capabilities -- but I don't think National Guard divisions could be brought to Europe in a week or two.


_____________________________

I am not Charlie Hebdo

(in reply to Radu)
Post #: 10
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/10/2007 1:05:18 PM   
Radu

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		The USAF will follow the same line as the ground troops,namely starting small and building up over time. Strategic bombers will definately not be present initially.

Also I would include two Vietnam-like parameter modifications:

-Increase loss multiplier (loss intolerance) for the US side.
-US ground units will not reconstitute.

for obvious current-day US political climate reasons.

(in reply to ColinWright)
Post #: 11
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/10/2007 3:31:32 PM   
Jo van der Pluym


Posts: 834
Joined: 10/28/2000
From: Valkenburg Lb, Netherlands
Status: offline 		Also a option can be that the Hungarian Army does fight with the US forces.
This because both contries had in the past there differences.

_____________________________

Greetings from the Netherlands

Jo van der Pluym
CrazyDutch

(in reply to Radu)
Post #: 12
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/10/2007 5:09:44 PM   
Radu

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 11/6/2007
Status: offline 		On the contrary, Hungary has much to lose by interviening exactly *because* of the past.

Such a bold,revisionist move might alienate it from the EU.

Also, Romanians are still a majority in Transylvania, though indeed by a lesser margin than in other areas of the country, which could spell guerilla hell for Hungarian troops. Coupled with the Transylvanian mountaineous/hilly terrain,such a move would be costly for the Hungarians indeed,especially in this day and age of the IED and EFP.

As it stands,other than for the most distasteful of nationalist urges from the political fringe, Hungary has no interest in occupying a land that is ideal for guerilla resistance,has a majority population that isn't Hungarian,and a Hungarian minority itself pretty much fully integrated within the Romanian society (corruption scandals included).

(in reply to Jo van der Pluym)
Post #: 13
RE: Hypothetical Scenario Help - 11/12/2007 6:07:25 PM   
Trick37_MatrixForum


Posts: 172
Joined: 8/10/2007
From: My mama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright


quote:

ORIGINAL: Radu

Ech, I could have sworn that was aimed at me. Ah well, no harm done I guess.

Anyway,back on topic.

I don't think a para-only US OOB would do. (though a debate would be welcome)

The theater of ops is Dobruja. That's the area in SE Romania bordered by:

-East: Black Sea
-West : Danube (the part that swings north)
-North : Danube (as it continues east towards the Black Sea)
-South : Bulgaria

The RO forces starting points are bridgheads over the Danube. (Colin,if you have GoogleEarth I could send you the coordinates.I'm not exactly military educated,so I can't say anything about their logistic feasibility.I would like to keep this scenario within the bounds of reality.Romania vs USA is already out-there enough.)

Now I believe Dobruja is a bit large for the 173rd Abn alone to handle.Also, I would imagine the 101st and 82nd would already be deployed to the crisis pre-dating the Romanian one.

Thus, I would also include the 2nd Cav Rgt to arrive in a couple of turns (I'm thinking half-day/full day turns maybe).

Also some scattered exile gov interior ministry troops or smth to slow the Romanian player down from just racing through the Dobrujan countryside.

Still I feel something's missing. Don't get me wrong, Romania though being in NATO, I'm not so naive as to equate them to US or UK,France,Germany,Italy. But the 173rd and 2nd Cav decimating 2 Mech Bdes,2 Inf Bdes,2 Mtn Bdes and some artillery and recon/para units thrown in for good measure? I feel I should include some serious US oomph to arrive mid-game. I mentioned the 35th Inf NG Div, but I have no idea how soon a Nat Gd formation can be brought to Europe. A week? Two?

The general flow of the game would see the Romanian player make a decision early on. Take his chances, engage the 173rd Abn and 2nd Cav head-on hoping to defeat them at the appropriate costs (troops,time) before delivering the coup de grace in Constanta? Or go for the sudden-death by taking Constanta and 'dealing' with the exile gov?

Radu.


Don't forget about our air power. Do we still have B-52's? If so, they confer on us the ability to abruptly decimate the contents of any given hex.

I'm not really very interested or knowledgeable about modern US military capabilities -- but I don't think National Guard divisions could be brought to Europe in a week or two.



They can't, but like I said before, any and ALL units not deployed would be available for deployment. If it was to be something based on airborne, then the 3rd Infantry Division would be brought in as it's part of the XVIII AIrborn Corps.

If that doesn't work, try bringing in the 10th Mountain Division (minus a brigade since one is always deployed in Afghanistan for obvious reasons).

The 3rd ACR out of Fort Polk could also work.

As for the Air Force, don't count them out. Strategic bombers WOULD be available to be flown in and used from bases in the States (they would refuel in flight several times).


< Message edited by Trick37 -- 11/12/2007 6:08:10 PM >

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